More information, including details about a $1.7 million deficit, has come out about what led the Australian megachurch Glow Church to require its founding pastors to step down last week.

In a leaked audio recording, Glow Church pastor Joel Cave was denying 18 months ago there was anything to rumors about him and his wife, Ellen, separating. The two have been married for 25 years.

During an April 17, 2024, Q&A session with church members, Cave described how, for a few weeks, he had helped a daughter with medication and sleeping needs away from the rest of the family. But this led to “evil” speculation about his marriage when he was just trying to protect his family.

But since then, the two have separated, prompting Glow’s board to mandate time off for the couple. The board said last week that the Caves’ separation is due to “personal challenges” and not moral failure.

At the time, Cave attributed the rumors to gossip Satan was using to try to shut down Glow Church’s promising future.

“It’s actually from the enemy,” Cave said in the recording. “There’s nothing more to see here.”

The Roys Report (TRR) reached out to Cave and Glow Church but didn’t receive a response.

The Caves founded Glow Church, based in Australia’s Gold Coast, in 2013. It was one of Australia’s first church plants launched by the scandal-ridden Association of Related Churches (ARC). It soon became one of Australia’s fastest-growing churches, with branches in Sydney, Melbourne, and the United Kingdom.

Behind the scenes, Cave said in the defensive but frank recording, the growth has “been a nightmare to manage.” He said the church has had “painful moments,” as a result, but that church leaders never meant to hurt anyone.

“Do I believe that there’s anyone on our staff, or for me . . .  that have not always wanted to do the right thing aboveboard, above approach?” Cave said. “I can 100% put my hand on my heart and tell you, that’s always been the intention. There are some times in life, some things can grow beyond your ability in a season. You don’t know how to manage it.”

Satan has been targeting Glow and his family because of the church’s fruit and future, he said.

“I refuse to back off,” Cave said. “I’m going to come out swinging spiritually because I know that in this next season, we are going to see signs and wonders in this church . . . You watch the miracles that are going to start happening because we’ve been willing to take it on the chin at every level.”

Church struggles

Glow experienced stable leadership in its initial years in Gold Coast, Cave said in the 2024 meeting. But as Glow has added campuses, the growth overwhelmed its budget. This is according to Glow’s financial statements posted on Australia’s Charities and Not-for-profit Commission website.

The church has fluctuated from surpluses, such as (in Australian currency) $1.4 million in 2020 and $576,000 in 2021, to deficits of $420,000 in 2022 and $1.3 million in 2023. The 2023 $1.3 million deficit was offset by a $2.6 million land revaluation that put Glow in a $1.3 million surplus.

But in 2024, the separation of the campuses caused a $1.7 million deficit, Glow’s financial statements show. Two of Sydney’s Glow Churches relaunched as Abide Church. A west Sydney church became Altar Church. Melbourne’s Glow Church became Saints Church Melbourne. TRR reached out to these churches about the separation, but they didn’t respond.

While the change of “shrinking” a church is painful, Cave said, he believes it’s time to become a local church again.

“This last season, we have gotten distracted trying to change the world (but not) our own backyard,” Cave said. “And I’m ashamed. . . We were so good for so many years reaching the Gold Coast, and I feel like God has reprimanded me in the process of the fact that we’ve lost sight of what matters most.”

Most of last year’s $1.7 million deficit was caused by an “investment” of $1.5 million in releasing four locations debt free, according to the 2024 statement.

“All locations were released with no ongoing debt to ensure complete financial independence moving forward,” the financial report stated. “Now that our transition time is complete, we are now realigning all our budgets and planning to return to surplus.”

A $1.1 million revaluation of Glow’s property brought the $1.7 million deficit to about $560,000, the statement shows.

The pastor said the detailed finances of the church have brought forth some spurious questions by people who didn’t know better, saying he “rebuked” people who have called the integrity of leaders into question.

“When you don’t know things, don’t say things,” he said. “This is Jesus’ money. This is Jesus’ finance. We have always done the right thing with people’s money.”

Another recent big expense was the loss of $250,000 in start-up costs for a failed church plant in Houston, Cave explained in the recording. Glow had sent Glow pastors Grant and Whitney Hoyle to start a church, but the Hoyles, at the last minute, departed for another church, he said. Cave added he thought about going “legal.” He even flew to the United States for a six-hour confrontation with them.

Eventually, “We have to write it off,” he said, in deciding to release the costs to God. Hoyle is on staff at Faith Family Church in Baytown, just south of Houston.

Glow has also lost staff in the restructuring with has been painful for them, Cave said in the recording. But he said he regrets growing Glow so quickly and hiring leaders from other big churches.

“I wish I’d done it with less of foreign culture at once,” he said. “I just would take time and continue to build home-grown leaders, get to know people better, make sure our culture is at the forefront of what we do.”

Glow also lost five board members in the last three years, the financial statements show. One was a chairman who saw things differently than the pastor, Cave stated.

“We had different philosophies on how the church should be run,” he said in the recording. “We just said, ‘Let’s just make a choice to be friends.’”

As of the 2024 statement and the 2024 recorded meeting, Glow has just three remaining board members. One is Cave himself. Another is Warren Eriksson, who is also employed as Glow’s chief financial officer and a person Cave singled out for praise during his talk. The board chairman is Dave Weatherman.

The church also has outside advisors, Cave said in the recorded meeting.

These include Michael Murphy, former pastor at embattled Hillsong Church, Paul de Jong, founder of Australia’s multisite LIFE church, and businessman Andrew Denton, who runs Kingdom Builders, a ministry originally from Hillsong.

TRR reached out to Murphy, de Jong, and Denton about their roles, but they didn’t respond.

Cave said in the meeting that he wants more elders and believes churches should have accountability and strong governance.

However, Glow Church didn’t respond to TRR’s request for a current list of board members and advisors. At last year’s recorded meeting, Cave promised his congregation to update the website with this information. Currently, the website doesn’t list them.

Proper governance

Outside advisors are a typical practice of the Association of Related Churches that can make accountability for pastors difficult, TRR has previously reported.

Glow’s local elders or board members should feel free to hold the pastor accountable, said Mitch Little, an attorney who represented sexual misconduct victims of Willow Creek Community Church’s disgraced founder Bill Hybels. For example, board members should not also be employees, Little said.

“You always want to have a set of disinterested, independent trustees or elders that have oversight over the organization and are not beholden to the central celebrity or speaking figure,” Little said.

He also said governance only works if the church has “goodness,” and allows the system to work well.

“If there’s no real goodness in the oversight, then the errant pastor can always overcome it,” Little said.

Rebecca Hopkins is a journalist based in Colorado.