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Church Of The Nazarene Expels LGBTQ-Affirming Theologian

Por Yonat Shimron
The church court stripped the Rev. Thomas Jay Oord, of Nampa, Idaho, of his preaching credentials and expelled him from membership in the 2.5 million-member global denomination.
The Rev. Thomas Jay Oord. (Photo © Mark Umstot)

A Church of the Nazarene court has found one of its most prominent theologians guilty of affirming and advocating for the inclusion of LGBTQ+ members, contrary to the church’s teachings.

After delivering the verdict on Saturday evening against the Rev. Thomas Jay Oord of Nampa, Idaho, the court stripped Oord of his preaching credentials and expelled him from membership in the 2.5 million-member global denomination.

“We, the members of the Regional Board of Discipline, unanimously find to a moral certainty and beyond a reasonable doubt … that Thomas Jay Oord is guilty of conduct unbecoming a minister and of teaching doctrines out of harmony with the doctrinal statement of the Church of the Nazarene,” the court found.

The Church of the Nazarene holds that “the practice of same-sex sexual intimacy is contrary to God’s will.” Oord’s trial, which took place in Boise on Thursday, follows last year’s guilty verdict against Selden Kelley, then a San Diego Nazarene minister, who was also defrocked as a result. Kelley, who pastored San Diego’s First Church of the Nazarene, advocated for dialogue on LGBTQ+ issues.

The church court — four clergy and two lay people — emailed Oord their five-page verdict on Saturday night. Oord’s district superintendent, the Rev. Scott Shaw, who also testified for the church at his trial, declined to comment.

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In its decision, the church court cited a libro Oord wrote with his daughter Alexa Oord, who is bisexual, titled, “Why the Church of the Nazarene Should Be Fully LGBTQ+ Affirming,” in which they affirm gay sex, which the court found particularly egregious.

“Some LGBTQ behavior — including same-sex marriage — can promote well-being,” the Oords wrote. “It’s good and healthy; it represents the values of the Kingdom of God. The transformation God desires rarely if ever requires LGBTQ people to change their sexual orientation, identity, or loving behavior.”

The court also objected to Oord’s behavior in defying church rules, including multiple requests that he either quit advocating for queer people or give up his preaching credentials. (It’s not clear that he was obliged to do so.)

“Oord has shown absolutely no repentance or willingness to submit to the authority of the church,” the verdict reads, adding that “his behavior exhibits a pattern of disregard and disrespect for authority.”

Reached Saturday, Oord said he was not surprised but disappointed. “I had hoped the church of the Nazarene could be a place for me and those like me who fully affirm queer people and support their allies.”

Samuel Powell, a retired theology professor at Point Loma Nazarene University and onetime dean of the School of Theology and Christian Ministry, said Oord’s sentence was unprecedented.

“Defrocking was not unexpected, but expelling him from membership is harsh and vindictive,” Powell said. “We’re doing everything we can to keep people. There never has been an attempt to weed out members who don’t believe everything.”

Powell testified on Oord’s behalf at the trial, arguing that the second charge “conduct unbecoming” is ill-defined and vague in the church’s rulebook or manual.

The denomination is declining in the U.S., where it has about 500,000 members in 4,600 churches.

The United Methodist Church, to which the Church of the Nazarene is theologically akin (both trace their origin to John Wesley), underwent a major split over LGBTQ+ inclusion in the past two years, losing 25% of its U.S. churches and more recently all its churches in the Ivory Coast of Africa. At its most recent conference, the UMC voted to repeal the denomination’s condemnation of homosexuality from its rulebook and allow LGBTQ+ people to be ordained and ministers in the denomination to marry same-sex couples.

Oord, who has written or edited 30 books, believes love is central to the Christian message and that affirming gay relationships is necessary to loving LGBTQ+ people.

He said he became “queer affirming” in the early 1990s and spent the next few decades helping queer students at Eastern Nazarene College and later at Northwest Nazarene University feel embraced and loved. In 2015 he was pushed out of his job at Northwest Nazarene University for his progressive views more generally.

He now directs doctor of ministry students at Northwind Theological Seminary, an online-only school that is not affiliated with the Church of the Nazarene. He will be able to keep his job, but he will no longer be allowed to publish with the Nazarene-owned publishing house, the Foundry, or preach or hold membership in any of its churches.

At Oord’s trial, two queer people testified that the church’s teachings have been damaging to queer people. Ood’s defense also included four theologians. Weeks before his trial, he published a libro called “My Defense: Responding to Charges that I Fully Affirm LGBTQ+ People.”

“I feel good about how I presented myself at the trial,” Oord said. “I aimed to make arguments based on love, while expressing an attitude of love. And I believe I succeeded. But apparently the discipline board was not convinced that love calls us all to fully affirm queer people.“

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67 Respuestas

  1. “I had hoped the church of the Nazarene could be a place for me and those like me who fully affirm queer people and support their allies.”

    Translation:

    “I had hoped the church of the Nazarene could be a place for me and my daughter who fully affirm queer people and support their allies.”

    “Oord, who has written or edited 30 books, believes love is central to the Christian message and that affirming gay relationships is necessary to loving LGBTQ+ people.”

    Translation:

    In order to love LGBTQ+ people, we need to affirm and accept their sinful behavior.

    Wow. That’s all I can say. Wow.

  2. I would feel a lot more open to the opinion of conservative evangelicals on gay relationships if they had not been on the wrong side of slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, women’s rights, the Civil Rights movement and the sexual harassment and abuse reforms.

    1. I understand and appreciate your statement, Greg. However, does that somehow affect your personal reading and understanding of God’s Word on THIS topic?

      1. David, I am not Greg, but I can tell you those reasons caused me not to accept the standard position at face value, but to study all sides of the conversation- to understand why the traditional position believes that homosexuality is sin (what I was raised in and where I started), and to understand the Biblical scholarship of those who disagree.

        I think most people who aren’t affirming believe that people who are affirming get to their positions by ignoring scripture, and that may be true of some. But most of the people I know who are affirming got that way by studying scripture. By looking at the entirety of what scripture says, and who God is, and also looking specifically at what scripture says and who God is.

        I can guarantee you that any Gay Christian you meet will have studied those verses (and most likely all of scripture) more deeply than your average Christian, and not just to find a “loophole” but to truly understand themselves.

        1. Jen,

          Studying scripture is not the same thing as understanding scripture or living by it. There are multiple college courses and graduate-level courses that concentrate on scripture, but those who take the courses don’t necessarily live what the scriptures teach.

          Knowledge of scripture? Even Satan can quote it backwards, forwards, and sideways.

          The Christian life is about faith and obedience. It’s about changed behavior and transformed lives. Knowledge is going to pass away. The Bible is clear when it comes to homosexual behavior: God finds it an abomination.

          Colossians 2:8:

          “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.”

          1. I think Cynthia is correct. To love everyone is imperative but that does not require one to agree with, condone, or affirm their sinful actions. Jesus died on the cross to forgive all sins, He rose from the dead to give us eternal life, and He sent the Holy Sprit to hello surrendered followers to avoid sinful behaviors and the sinful lifestyle.

      2. David, it certainly makes me open to other sides of the argument.

        Right now I’m still reading up on the evangelical opposition to freeing slaves, to integration, interracial marriage and our support of school segregation that resulted in US Supreme Court cases in the 1970s and 1980s.

        1. Thanks, Greg!

          I really don’t ask that you be any more open to the positions of conservative evangelicals, or even to pay any attention to their (our?) positions on anything. Rather, I counsel you as well as myself to NOT be distracted by anyone’s positions; rather, to only read what scripture says about any issue.

          For none of the issues that you reference do I find any “argument,” within scripture, and absolutely both the church (including evangelical conservatives, particularly!) and society have a history of often being on the wrong side of most of these issues…and of often communicating the positions without love even when on the “right” side. But, I would hope that both you and I would find that the scripture is pretty clear on each of these issues when we ignore the opinion of others and just commit to follow what we read in the Bible to be the truth. This reading has to be guided by God’s Holy Spirit within each of us, of course, and when it is, no human arguments are necessary not beneficial.

          Again, I appreciate your response!

        2. Greg, when you start to learn about the issues evangelicals have been wrong on, it really does make you go back and check everything. When you get to the LGBTQ topic, I highly recommend David P. Gushee’s Changing Our Mind: Definitive Edition of the Landmark Call for Inclusion of LGBT Christians with Response to Critics- it’s a great introduction to the conversation, especially for folks who have largely been formed in conservative Christian spaces.

          1. Neal- It’s been a couple of years since I’ve read it- I’ll have to find my copy and brush up. I found Gushee in a cohort around Christian Peacemaking, and we read his book “Defending Democracy from it’s Christian Enemies”, and he joined us in a discussion around it, and I found him to be both incredibly knowledgable, and incredibly faithful. So I picked this book up too.

          2. Jen,

            I’ve read chapter 12 of Gushee’s book, the one that addresses Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20. What I found unconvincing about Gushee’s treatment of these two passages is that the prohibition of the act of of man “lying with a man as with a woman” is, when you read scripture, is stated in immediate context with incest, bestiality, adultery, sacrificing children, and a crucial hygene law regarding menstration. Ignoring the immediate context, Gushee compares “lying with a man as with a woman” to much less serious sins in Leviticus that are not in the immediate context.

            And the conclusion of Leviticus 18 is a declaration, from the mouth of God himself, that the practices of incest, bestiality, a man “lying with a man as with a woman,” adultery and violation of the crucial hygene law related to menstration are the basis for vomiting the previous nation from the land.

            Gushee does not even address the issue of immediate context and vomiting people from the land.

            I am not favorably impressesed at this point. I will keep reading, but after carefully reading the first 12 chapters, this is where I’m at.

          3. It is telling that instead of urging Greg to do an objective study of the scriptures on the subject, you instead tell him to go read a book that supports your personal opinion on homosexuality. Because that is all your position is. Personal opinion. Every supposed theologian that says the Bible supports homosexuality presses concepts upon scripture that are not there. You do so as well. Power dynamics. Pederasty. Temple priests. None of those concepts are in view in the Bible when homosexuality is being firmly condemned.

            When you remove the moral foundation to make homosexuality acceptable and suddenly not a sin, you also have to legitamize every other sexual sin as well. You can no longer say any of them are wrong because you have jettisoned all your moral values on the issue the minute you wrongly use the Bible to support your bias. You cannot object to adultery, or rape or bestiality or pedophilia. You get all of them at no extra cost. In most cases, people suddenly decide that homosexuality is now perfectly OK with God because they have a friend or family member that comes out and they now feel they have to accept it, or they just don’t want to look bad by saying homosexuality is one of the worst choices one can make when it comes to an intimate relationship. What you are actually doing is encouraging those in sin to continue to make their life worse daily spiritually, and physically. You are not helping them at all.

    2. You don’t have to listen to any human Greg. If you want the key to eternal life you must read the Bible for yourself and take it or leave it on its own terms. If you claim some people who died hundreds of years ago are stopping you, that’s just an excuse.

      1. It’s easy to claim that these systemic blindspots in the church were 150-200 years ago. But you can go decade by decade through our country’s founding and see that the church was giving moral and “Biblical” justification for the worst atrocities in our nation going on at any given time.

        I see the same blindspots today as Christians get all upset and outspoken about the gays, but get really silent on the *daily* arrests of Christian leaders for sexual abuse child sexual abuse.

        Seriously why are they throwing out pastors and churches who are gay friendly and allowing child abusers to remain in their ranks?

    3. I’m more concerned that you are less concerned about standing up for truth. If you’re not a Christian then why are you on this site? These are in house debates for some of the issues on this site. There are plenty of non Christian sites to visit

      1. the word “plenty” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. There were some very faithful christians it’s true, but there were far more willing to weaponize the Bible to justify enslavement. So many that the Southern Baptist Church was founded in order to justify keeping people enslaved, and is now america’s largest protestant denomination. There is always a remnant of faithful people following Christ, but much of american evangelicalism (and fundamentalism before it) has sold it’s soul for a bowl of soup (proximity to power and accumulating wealth).

        1. Jen, I own (and treasure) an 1860 edition of The Doctrines and Disciplines of the Methodist Episcopal Church” — pocket size — for those bold preachers who rode circuit on the frontier. It says on p. 30 that all professing faith must “avoid evil of every kind, especially that which is most generally practiced; such as…” a list follows, which includes “The buying and selling of human beings, with an intention to enslave them.” Part VI of the manual is devoted to slavery and concludes: “We therefore affectionately admonish all our Preachers and People to to keep themselves pure from this great evil, and to seek its extirpation by all lawful and Christian means.” That was a bold challenge to the culture of the day.

      2. Quite right, Neil, and secular historians have documented that the Abolitionist Movement was spearheaded by Quakers, Wesleyan Methodists and Evangelicals in Britain and the USA. For example, this source:
        https://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo/amabrel.htm

        Why then, and why them? It was traced to a spiritual trigger called the “Second Great Awakening”, a revival that swept across America in the early 1800s. It had the distinct markings of what we today would call charismatic renewal, but it was mainly carried by Methodist preachers.

        Most interesting of all IMO: The pro-slavery Christians back then denounced their abolitionist brethren as trying to merge “church and state”… what we today would call Christian Nationalism.

        1. The most famous minister of the Second Great Awakening was Charles Finney. Although he was an abolitionist, he was a also segregationist, and not willing to extend the rights of whites to the blacks.

          Sadly, the evangelical church pushed this segregation/white supremacy for another century after his death, even until the late 1970s and into 1980s.

          As you probably know the evangelical church used the Bible to justify segregation, claiming that man should not second guess what God did at the Tower of Babel and through the Curse of Ham.

          So I don’t have a lot of confidence in the evangelical tradition to use their interpretation for the Bible as the definitive guide for current social issues like the acceptance of gays.

          1. “So I don’t have a lot of confidence in the evangelical tradition to use their interpretation for the Bible as the definitive guide for current social issues like the acceptance of gays.”

            Then look to one of the multiple other Christian traditions which speak definitively on the issue…if you’re really interested in knowing the truth.

    4. Greg, Nazarenes, along with most holiness churches and even most churches throughout history have accepted that remarriage after divorce was ongoing adultery for all parties. (Remember, Jesus says, “But I say to you whoever divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, MAKES HER COMMIT ADULTERY, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”. Mt 5:32.

      So why is divorce and remarriage now readily accepted by Nazarenes even among many of their pastors? Did they get new light on the scripture that goes against nearly 2000 years of church history so that remarriage is always permissible if you are repentant?

      This shows a hermeneutic that moves outside of a wooden literalism. Most would see it as a cruel measure to NOT allow remarriage and that is where Nazarenes have sided.

      There are far more direct and definitive scriptures concerning remarriage than there are scriptures on something like same sex marriage. Thom Oord is just following in the footsteps of many in his denomination, but because it involves gay folks he has been booted to the curb.

  3. Why did the ruling authority need 5 pages to detail its decision??? A few verses would have been sufficient. In any case, THIS is restoring the church

  4. Another biblical issue Jen and I disagree on. But I hope everyone knows that these issues matter. We can stand strong on the objective foundation we derive our views from. I hope we all have the wisdom to not feel attacked. Because it’s an issue related disagreement. Not a personal slight. I believe homosexuality is sin and I have some amazing relationships with those who are homosexual. For those whose exegesis lead to a mysterious conclusion vs traditional cultural historical conclusion will have a different view. I’m not sure what Jim Crow has to do with the convo. But if that’s true Biden his buddy would have zero room to talk. He has made more racist statements than any other modern president. God’s design for marriage is a picture of Christ and the church. People who constantly bring up, “Well God is love and a loving God would want lgbtq+ to feel loved in the church. “ God’s by love is based on His Holiness For this man to try and infiltrate a church to promote false teaching is sinful. Go somewhere else. Start your own ministry. However show respect for the beliefs of the church.

    1. Jason, my stance on homosexuality and the Bible is anything but mystereous. I believe Christ has set the table wide, and welcomes all in. Same sex “relationships” have always existed, including in all of the times that scripture was written- what is condemned in scripture specifically involves power dynamics (older men/young boys in Greek/Roman culture, for example), certainly not todays co-equal consenting relationships between adults. The Bible holds a patriarchal perspective because that was the time it was written in, but if examined, you can see the thread of God dismantling all hierarchies, including those in marriage and leadership.

      this topic is much more involved than a 300 word post, or several even, so please do not be dismissive of my stance as a “mysterious conclusion” as if it isn’t also historical, cultural and deeply studied by myself and others. There are many scholars and books- the Gushee one I noted above is a great place for traditionalists to start.

      As for what slavery and jim crow have to do with the conversation- the evangelical church (and it’s predecessors) were wrong about that with their full chest, with many many defenses of treating Black people as less than in order to be able to enslave them, and later keep them segregated and treat them poorly. It seems fair, and even imperative, to examine if the evangelical church is doing that to others they consider “less than” as well.

      1. What does ‘Arsenokoitai’ mean? Even Bart Ehrman will tell you Paul’s vocabulary is drawing from Leviticus 18 & 20 (LXX). Contextually, same sex activity in Leviticus is bracketed and condemned along with various forms of incest (ect.) and considered incompatible with the presence of a holy God. As stated in these texts, we know incestuous marriage was practiced in Egypt, certainly among royalty, and had nothing to do with power dynamics. That simply isn’t the author’s concern. Rather they are regarded as activities incompatible with the presence of God’s holiness, which the land of Israel was uniquely designated to manifest. Historically speaking, absolute intolerance of homosexuality (ect.) was unique to the Israelite religion because of these texts. This is Paul’s bible, and his vocabulary points to this bible as the source of his condemnation of same sex activity (aside from any particular view of inspiration). One is free to believe what they want about Paul’s credibility, understanding and credentials. But those who assume Paul knows what he’s talking about will not harmonize with those who don’t. And even coherent, systemic interpretive theories shouldn’t make texts try to do something the authors obviously aren’t trying to do.

  5. How in the world can any mature Christian believe God approves of gay practicing Christians?
    ..no such thing based on the Bible and common sense?!!! it is an oxymoron.

    1. if that’s a good faith question, I recommend this book: “Changing Our Mind: Definitive Edition of the Landmark Call for Inclusion of LGBT Christians with Response to Critics” by David P Gushee.

      I don’t suspect you’re actually lookin for an answer, though, just to be affirmed in your stance. Prove me wrong. Get the book and lets have a conversation about it.

      1. “I don’t suspect you’re actually lookin for an answer, though, just to be affirmed in your stance.”

        I suspect this sentence actually describes you better than it does Jason. Your arguments that the Bible can be interpreted to approve same sex sexual relationships are terrible and sophomoric.

        1. Gordon, I started where Jason was. Then I was challenged, so I studied scripture to actually understand it, not just confirm my own views, and I changed my mind. it was his “?!!!” conveying incredulity that they could possibly choose anything other than “common sense” that suggested it wasn’t a good faith question, but I decided to answer anyway, because someone challenging my set-in-stone “common sense” beliefs is what brought me to more truth. I am always open to be proven wrong- because I want to believe what’s right and most the heart of God, not what I already believe. However, people here try to “prove me wrong” not with logic and scripture and meaning, but with the well worn paths of tradition that I have already walked. I know all the arguments and have found them weak and wanting in the face of truth.

          all of that to say, Gordon, if you’ve got anything new and convincing to add to the conversation, scripture that has been studied and understood, not just indoctrinated and yelled at people, please, by all means, add it. If you’re just here to critique me as a person or my faith, well, I’m prone to not interact with that, as you’ll pick up on by which threads I respond to. I can, assure you though, that my faith and my work are more vibrant and full than at any time in my life when I was trapped into “believing the right thing and shunning those that don’t” by evangelicalism.

          1. Jen, you can spill as many words and clever arguments as you want. It doesn’t change the fact that scripture speaks clearly on this issue and the church has always understood throughout its entire 2000 year history that the scripture speaks clearly on this issue. I’ve read your arguments in the comments here for a long time and they are not good.

          2. I should also add for readers here that another pattern I’ve seen over a long period of time from Jen is that she is always quick to rush to the judgement on conservative Christians.

          3. Gordon, I am especially critical of conservative Christianity because that is what I grew up in, was indoctrinated into all the way through conservative baptist bible college, and have grown out of. I know it inside and out- I took all of the evangelism and apologetics classes, I can “defend” every single tenant. I know every argument you’ll make before you make it. I’m not here to argue, but for sure it seems like that when I present other viewpoints, and I get that.

            To be clear, it is fully my intent in being in this space to show the readers here 1. where conservative Christianity specifically is failing them (which is not hard, because the reporting on the leaders that abuse their flock does most of the heavy lifting), 2. that conservative Christianity’s failings are a feature not a bug- they are result of the theology directly not a misuse of it. and 3. you can absolutely be a faithful Christian and interpret scripture outside of what conservative Christianity tells you is allowed. It’d been done for literal centuries, and I found so much more Godliness, freedom and life when I was able to get out from underneath the indoctrination. My life looks SO MUCH more like Christ’s (including challenging the traditional religious ideas!) now that I’m outside of conservative Christianity.

            I wish you well, Gordon.

          4. I always read the reviews of books before I read the books. A majority of Gushee’s book is available free on-line. I read the free sections and I read reviews. One review was especially effective in refuting Gushee and that review cited another article that refutes the basic premise of Jen’s comments as well. That article cited Ron Sider who is not especially conservative. He said, “The primary biblical case against homosexual practice is not the few texts that explicitly mention it. Rather, it is the fact that again and again the Bible affirms the goodness and beauty of sexual intercourse—and everywhere, without exception, the norm is sexual intercourse between a man and a woman committed to each other for life.” Review is found here: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/changing-mind/ Article is found here: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/not-that-kind-of-homosexuality/

          5. “…you can absolutely be a faithful Christian and interpret scripture outside of what conservative Christianity tells you is allowed. It’d been done for literal centuries, and I found so much more Godliness, freedom and life when I was able to get out from underneath the indoctrination. My life looks SO MUCH more like Christ’s (including challenging the traditional religious ideas!) now that I’m outside of conservative Christianity”

            Jen,

            If you’re referring to the question of understanding the biblical witness on homosexual relationships, affirming them hasn’t been “done for literal centuries”. Just the opposite, in fact. It’s never been done in the entire history of the church until very recently.

            As for your claims to being more godly now, godliness is defined by the objective teachings of scripture, not by subjective personal experience.

            You are self-deceived and deceiving others. Rom 1:32.

          6. Jen, please do not say you started where I was. I was challenged by things on all sides of the theological spectrum. Until you walk in someone’s shoes. It is not accurate to say where one started and that they haven’t been challenged by some similar things to go another direction. I was challenged and even lost a ministry position because I could not follow along. In fact in Bible college and seminary I knew hardly anything. I believe that most students are in the same camp. They really haven’t searched the scriptures. They have been taught a certain theological persuasions. But at the end of the day. Biblical formation takes a lifetime.

          7. Jason, by saying “I started where you are” isn’t meant to deny your study or positions- just that I used to also hold all of those same positions and make those same arguments. I don’t need anyone to explain them to me or quote scripture at me, because I understand all of the arguments and used to make them myself. I no longer do. Everyone has their journey. I have found more of who Christ is in mine. I hope everyone on this site is finding more of Christ, and living more like his Way.

    2. Do you approve of divorce and particularly remarriage with a living (so-called) ex spouse? The Bible addresses that issue directly and the church was united through most of its history in believing that remarriage was adultery.

      “He who marries a divorced woman commits adultery” (Mt. 5:32b).

      If you do affirm divorce and remarriage, why wouldn’t you do the same with same sex relationships?

      1. While I think most churches are too liberal on the remarriage issue, there is some scriptural ambiguity in its application. The OT tolerates divorce/ remarriage while at the same time expressing God’s displeasure of it. In the gospels, the background issues often help clarify what Jesus was shooting at. Often Jesus is outwitting his opponent’s theological traps and exposing their hypocrisy. Using divorce to swap out your spouse for another is properly called out as adultery. The logic behind that is pretty straight forward. Where there is ambiguity is in applying the spirit of the law. The OT reluctantly permits divorce/ remarriage. Jesus eluded that he wasn’t shooting at divorce/ remarriage situations resulting from infidelity. Paul isn’t clear about Christians who are divorced by their non-Christian spouses. There are scriptural indications that the prohibitions aren’t absolute for every situation. What we don’t see in either testament is ambiguity over same sex acts. It’s the nature of the sexual act that scripture condemns in absolute terms, not the context around it.

  6. Jen,

    It sounds like you are trying to justify your own lifestyle by using “Biblical interpretation” and “growing out of” arguments. What is not clear from your reasoning is how you view sinful behavior. Do you think sin is something God abhors, or do you think we can live with it as believers? Do you think God looks the other way when “Christians” engage in sinful behavior?

  7. What I find interesting is the same people strongly condemning Jen’s comments here are the same people who are silent on condemning child sexual abuse – where are your strong comments on those articles condemning child sex abuse? You didn’t bother? Jen did bother to write on those articles. Remember the sheep and goats – I think many of you may be goats but think you are sheep. Keep speaking up Jen!

    1. Thanks Karen. I know that the people who feel the need to make sure everyone knows I’m wrong are not my audience here. My hope is to be a voice for anyone reading that there is maybe another way, one that looks more like Christ and less like the pious religious folk that condemned him. When I realized that that’s for sure the side I was on, I started listening, learning and changing. They may not like my beliefs, which doesn’t bother me even a little- I am confident in my faith and in the way I am walking with Christ, caring for the people Christ cares about (all of them, but especially those on the margins). I’m pretty confident that I’m in the “sheep” category based on the fact that every day I’m clothing the naked, housing the homeless, feeding people, looking after refugees, working people in addiction- pretty much the whole gamut.

      I honestly think it’s kind of silly that we even spend time debating whether or not homosexuality is a sin, because either way, OUR job is to love people. Not condemn them. Not even try to change them- that’s literally not our job- that’s the Holy Spirit’s job. they’ll know we’re christians by our love, after all- not our snide posts on the internet. We are not charged to make people look Christian, we’re to make disciples, by loving them right to the Jesus way. I am hoping that anyone who happens along to this blog and reads the comments at least sees that in me and the way I’m advocating for those on the margins- on all the posts. I hope they feel seen.

      1. Jen:

        Your words: “I’m pretty confident that I’m in the “sheep” category based on the fact that every day I’m clothing the naked, housing the homeless, feeding people, looking after refugees, working people in addiction- pretty much the whole gamut.”

        Sigh….It is not possible to work your way into heaven, Jen. You can only get there through Jesus and a relationship with him. If you are basing your hope on your own works, you are truly lost.

        1. Hi Cynthia. no need to worry about my faith. it’s solid, and I’m working out my salvation daily. Also this;

          James 2:
          “14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
          18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
          Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
          20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[b] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

      2. Regarding such pro-LGBTQ comments from “Christians” I have the following to say: I have had two friends in my lifetime who now fit this category. One was closer than my own brother who is a convicted child molester. Both have had issues with suicide. This one played with a gun one night and came close to pulling the trigger. The other managed to kill himself and if paramedics had not been nearby would have stayed that way. The first has been in and out of mental health hospitals. These were my friends and I would really like to see them in heaven.
        However, I am not arrogant enough to tell the living God that He cannot have an opinion that differs to my own preferred position. He makes the rules. He inspired His scriptures. They say plainly what they say. I cannot go around trying to shame real Christians for acknowledging what that Word says. I, unlike such as leave these comments, am not that arrogant. I am not God, Jesus Christ is. He defines reality, not you or me. The truth is not what we want it to be. Stop shaming others and being a heretic yourself. That can very well get you excluded to. I have seen hell many years ago. There is no price too high to pay not to go there. That place is the most real I have ever seen. No temporary sexual pleasure or freedom is worth that price.

    2. karen,

      The “sheep and the goats” story involves Jesus knowing who his sheep are and knowing who are pretending to be his sheep.

      If you read it carefully, you will see that some goats actually think that by doing good works, they will get to heaven. If you understand the Gospel presented in the Bible, you also understand that no number of good works can justify anyone. We are only saved by grace.

      I hope and pray Jen understands that. If not, she’s lost no matter how many naked people she clothes, no matter how many homosexuals she welcomes into the church, no matter how many hungry people she feeds… she’s lost without Christ and His saving power. Jesus came to empower us to become His children, his sons and daughters. He came to nail our sins to the cross, not to allow them to prosper and grow inside a church building.

      1. The Sheep and the Goats
        31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

        34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

        37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

        40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

        1. “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

      2. Continued: “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

        1. Thanks Karen, I live by this scripture (you know, not ONLY this scripture, just to be clear for my haters). It was only in the last few years when teaching it did it break through to me that no where in this does it talk about belief or dogma or position on issues- or even sin, and certainly not sexuality. The reason beliefs matter is if they cause you to love people who are overlooked or forgotten. If your theology doesn’t cause you to do that- or worse, actively causes you to treat people worse because you’re judging their life, we’ll you might be surprised to find that you’re a goat on judgment day. Measuring by this passage, most of the Gay people i know might be surprised to find that they’re sheep ahead of many of the conservative christians I know- because the Gays form mutual aid groups to help those in need, and I know many christians who simply judge them. The more on the margins people are, the more likely they are to help people on the margins. cont….

        2. So what do we do with those verses that say that “God condemns homosexuality”? We study and understand them, and like any other time we see contradictions in the bible (because this absolutely is a contradiction), we use wisdom and what we know of God’s character. I read the Bible through a lens of Jesus and a lens of God’s love. Jesus is the one who gets to judge, not me, and I’m pretty sure God isn’t going to fault me for loving people too freely, since God commands it. If people are “in sin” it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to sort that out. It’s my job to love and serve them.

          1. Neal- the contradiction is that a handful of passages say that “homosexuality” (as an example, but also other things as well) is an abomination and condemned, and will not enter the kingdom, but when The King sorts people into sheep and goats, those who serve people in need and without power receive their inheritance, and are blessed with the kingdom. This second part tracks with the beatitudes as well.

            I know many many gay people who actively work with unhoused folk, fight for justice, help with feeding and clothing people. They are also often poor in spirit, which Matt 5 says they will inherit the kingdom, and they’re peacemakers so they are children of God.

            So which is it? are they condemned? or do they inherit the kingdom? Both of these sets of passages speak pretty clearly to who’s in and who’s out- but they speak in opposition to each other, so what rubric do we use to resolve the contradiction?

          2. Jen,
            Thanks for the reply. The structure of a contradiction is always “A and not A.” Contradictions are problematic because, according to the law of non-contradiction, it is impossible to be both A and non-A at the same time and in the same relationship. It is impossible for the same woman to be be both pregnant with child and not pregant with child at the same time. She can be pregnant with child and not pregnant “with book” at the same time, but those are different types of pregnancy.

            So if A is “live a lifestyle characterized by lying with a man as with a woman without repentance,” then, for hypothetical example, the Bible would contain a contradiction if it said, “If you A then you will enter the kingdom of heaven AND if you A then you will NOT enter the kingdom of heaven.”

            So according to the definition of contradiction as seen in the law of non-contradiction, you have not yet provided me with an example of a contradiction in scripture.

            I’m happy to reply to the difficulty you did bring up in the next reply.

          3. (Continued) So now to respond to the example you mentioned, which includes two statements about entry to the kingdom of heaven.

            Statement A: “Those who engage in homosexual practices without repentance will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

            Statement B: “Those who clothe the naked and feed the poor will enter the kingdom of heaven.”

            Your question seems to be, “What about the person who engages in BOTH A AND B?”

            Does scripture give us any indication of the destiny of the person whose life is characterized by both A and B?

            Yes. This scenario can be understood with the help of the Matthew 7, especially verses 21 – 23, which seems to indicate that performing the “might works” such as clothing the naked and feeding the poor is, though necessary, not sufficient. Without “knowing God,” which entails a reconciled relationship characterized by repentance from sin, we must not expect to be admitted to the kingdom.

            So it’s not “EITHER not A OR B,” It’s “BOTH not A AND B.” That is, both repent of sin and serve the needy.”

    3. No one here is arguing that abuse is good and that God approves of abuse if you just read the Bible in the original languages.

  8. “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

    This is as clear as day and needs no interpretation. There is nothing Christian about practicing LBGTQ stuff. End of argument. You can believe what is contrary to our scriptures, but that is not being a disciple, but rather a heretic. They will not be there, nor will drunkards, thieves, adulterers or liars or many others from other passages.

    1. Ralph, so what do you do with the direct contradiction to that statement noted above from Matthew 25? On judgement day people aren’t sorted into sheep and goats based on their bad behavior or beliefs, but based on whether or not they served the poor and mistreated. And, that those who are sorted into the sheep are surprised by it- meaning, they likely weren’t expecting kingdom inheritance. It’s even possible they could be on that list of unrighteous. I certainly know some drunkards who also take care of their community in need. And I know many many LGBTQ who particapte in mutual aid and care for the poor. Jesus says that they’re sheep- they’re in. There’s no belief-test or forgiveness or mention of doctrine- just plain caring for those who need help. What do you do with that?

      I’ll also note that the end of that passage is “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”- it doesn’t describe the mechanism of that washing- what if that washing and imputed righteousness comes not from right belief, but from right action- the serving of the poor? That would also track with James 2 (faith without works is dead)

      1. Jen:

        Your words indicate Jesus did not need to die at all. If people simply feed the poor and do good works, they can get to heaven based on your words and interpretation of the Biblical text.

        So, in your world, why did Jesus need to die in the first place?

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