los ad begins with a clip of renowned evangelist the Reverendo Billy Graham, wearing glasses, a gray suit and tie, leaning in toward a pulpit.
“But you must realize that in the last days, the times will be full of danger,” Graham declares. “Men will become utterly self-centered and greedy for money.”
Suddenly, a clip of former President Donald Trump is spliced in. Standing before a row of American flags at a campaign rally in Des Moines, Iowa, Trump says: “My whole life I’ve been greedy, greedy, greedy. I’ve grabbed all the money I could get. I’m so greedy.”
For the next few seconds, the ad, which has racked up over 30 million views, flips between Graham’s 1988 sermon, contrasting his points with shots of Trump using violent language, claiming to be “the chosen one” and talking about kissing women without their consent.
That ad, the result of a $1 million ad campaign por Evangelicals for Harris, is now the subject of a potential lawsuit from the Asociación Evangelística Billy Graham, a Charlotte, North Carolina-based nonprofit that supports the ministries of Billy Graham’s son and grandson. In late September and early October, Evangelicals for Harris, a grassroots campaign of the political action committee Evangelicals for America, said it received multiple letters from lawyers representing the association, including a “cease and desist” letter. An Oct. 2 letter, sent from outside counsel and obtained by media, threatened to sue Evangelicals for Harris on the basis of copyright infringement.
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While the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association did not respond to a request for comment in time for publication, in August its president and CEO, Franklin Graham, turned to the social platform X to voice his displeasure at Evangelicals for Harris’ use of his father’s sermons.
“The liberals are using anything and everything they can to promote candidate Harris. They even developed a political ad trying to use my father @BillyGraham’s image. They are trying to mislead people,” he escribió. “Maybe they don’t know that my father appreciated the conservative values and policies of President @realDonaldTrump in 2016, and if he were alive today, my father’s views and opinions would not have changed.”
In response to the threatened lawsuit, Evangelicals for Harris emitió un comunicado saying Franklin Graham is taking a page from Trump’s playbook by trying to silence the group through legal action.
“Franklin is scared of our ads because we do not tell people what to do or think. We merely hold Trump’s own words up to the light of Scripture, the necessity of repentance, and Biblical warnings against leaders exactly like Trump,” they wrote in a post on X.
The lawyers representing Evangelicals for Harris also released their formal legal responseto the threatened lawsuit. Originally sent on Sept. 28, the letter asserts that the ad does not constitute copyright infringement or violate the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association’s right. They write that the public discussion of Trump’s moral failings is “essential First Amendment expression” and that the use of Billy Graham’s sermon is protected under the Copyright Act.
“EFH will not be removing the ‘Keep Clear’ advertisement in response to your demand. The advertisement is a transformative, noncommercial use of less than two percent of a widely disseminated video, aimed at a market that BGEA (Billy Graham Evangelistic Association) was prohibited from targeting,” the letter says.
Evangelicals for Harris was founded by Jim Ball, an evangelical minister and former head of both the Evangelical Environmental Network and Evangelicals for Biden. Since its launch in August, the group has had over 300,000 people sign up for information about the campaign, according to Ball. Jerushah Duford, Billy Graham’s granddaughter; Bishop Claude Alexander of The Park Church in Charlotte, North Carolina; and Baptist pastor the Rev. Dwight McKissic are among the group’s ranks.
Ball said the “Keep Clear” ad, named after Graham’s admonishment to “keep clear of people like that,” was inspired by a desire to rely on the biblical wisdom of Billy Graham, whom Ball considers a personal hero, and to reintroduce young people to the evangelist.
“We’ve never had a situation where a single individual has threatened democracy and the rule of law like Mr. Trump has,” said Ball. “We’re also hoping to provide a witness to others that love should be at the heart of how we look at politics. … How are we called to love our neighbors in the public square? We think hands down that Kamala Harris is the candidate that everyone should be voting for on that regard.”
Kathryn Post is a reporter for Religion News Service based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
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Predictable behavior to try to quell any dissenting voices. A lot like what Trump would do.
I guess Evangelicals for Harris could just contrast Trump with Jesus’ words instead. That would be just as effective and maybe more so, and as far as I know no one has a copyright on those, though I wouldn’t be too surprised if someone tried to claim such.
Not. Evangelicals for Harris are urging people to vote for a candidate that is morally bankrupt. I know that, and people who actually worship Jesus know that. There is no justification one could make for voting for either Trump OR Harris, as a born-again Christian. That ad is a juvenile cut & paste job inferring Billy Graham was anti-Trump. It’s fraudulent and its duplicitous. There is no argument one could make that would remove the underhandedness of that ad. And that tells you what kind of organization one is dealing with when it comes to EFH. They’d have to look in the dictionary to know what “evangelical” means. As a Christian, you cannot vote for a candidate who endorses sin. Period. There is no room for debate there at all. You serve Christ, or you serve someone else.
The message conveyed by that ad is 100% correct. Franklin Graham’s worship of Trump and threat of a lawsuit completely discredits whatever testimony the Graham grifting organization had left.
I think Franklin Graham is proof that we are in the Post-Christian Era of American Christianity.
A true follower of Jesus Christ will not endorse Harris and her abortions.we don’t believe in murder (killing innocent babies.)
Peggy, abortion has been what people call a dog whistle to attract conservatives Christians to vote for republican candidates. And it’s worked. But many Republican leaders we’ve voted for have duped us. They are not conservative nor are they Christian. Quite the opposite they are people of great moral evil hiding behind the cardboard cut out out of republicanism. Like Mark Robinson of North Carolina. Like Marjorie Taylor Greene. Like Donald Trump.
How could a true follower of Jesus Christ support Trump? He knowingly spreads lies, calls people vile names, has raped women, boasts about grabbing women’s genitals without their consent, falsifies business records, doesn’t pay his workers, slept with a porn star while married, been divorced twice and tried to subvert the will of the America people by knowingly pushing false election steal lies. He didn’t even care or intervene when his own Christian VP Pence was in danger of being hanged on January 6th.
This national election is not about abortion. That battle will never be won in the political arena. Ever. Overturning Roe v Wade didn’t change people hearts. Haven’t you seen this yet?
The battle for life is won by changing the moral conscience of our nation through repentance and changed hearts. That starts with our witness for Jesus. If we knowingly stand behind/support a man who is a boastful lying bully our witness is GONE. That is what Evangelicals for Harris are trying to tell us. Brothers and sisters don’t you see this yet?
Saeng Fisher:
We have two candidates. We will choose the lesser of two evils. “Evangelicals for Harris” is a front organization run by a man who touts how important electric vehicles are to the future of the earth.
In other words, a Communist supporter of China in disguise. No thanks.
Wow. Supporting electric vehicles makes one a Communist? I guess that makes future presumed Trump cabinet members Elon Musk a Commie as well, and Trump a Commie for wanting to have him in his cabinet. Apparently, there are Commies behind every bush. Joe McCarthy would be proud.
Tom Getchell-Lacey:
THINK, please. At no point did I intimate that the only reason for the man’s Communist status is based on the promotion of electric vehicles. Assumptions are the provenance of fools.
Many think that their choice is “pro-life” vs. “pro-abortion”. What if the truth is closer to this. The choice before us is between a candidate that is actually pro-abortion while claiming to be pro-life vs a candidate that is out and out “pro-abortion”. Then what?
David, what if the plot twist is that the candidates that are “pro-abortion” are actually doing more to reduce abortion than the candidates that are “pro-life”?
Jen Manlief:
Is the goal to decrease abortion? I thought the goal was to reflect God’s heart, regardless of the outcome. One other point: What statistics are you using to determine your abortion numbers? Very curious here.
Jen, what’s “hyperbolic” about the mangled and dismembered remains of a once thriving innocent unborn child. I’m done. I pity you. If Jesus allows questions at the Great White Throne Judgement, ask Him His thoughts on abortion and if He approved of your “proud support” of the pro-abortion candidate. Repent Jen before it’s too late. You are certainly not a Christian.
Hi Craig, I can’t imagine that Jesus’ judgement will be more than your judgement here, especially because Jesus was completely silent on abortion. He did have some things to say about religious piety and folks who try to kick others out of the kingdom, so good luck to you also!
It doesn’t bother me that you don’t think I’m a christian, lots of people don’t- but I know that Jesus does, and that’s all that actually matters.
I do hope you are able to resolve the judgement in your heart (and keyboard) before you approach that great white throne, or you’ll have a rough go of it, I think.
David Jay:
President Trump’s Supreme Court appointments helped to overturn Roe v. Wade.
Enough said.
Overturning Roe v Wade did NOT outlaw abortion. It merely kicked the decision back to the states. Donald Trump said if he had the chance to enforce a federal ban on abortion, he would NOT. He has also criticized state abortion bans as too strict, and is publicly pleading with Republicans to soften their stance on abortion in order to win.
That says it all: the priority is not banning abortion or “protecting the unborn.” The priority is WINNING, and Trump’s showing that he will change his stance to do just that; and he’s encouraging others in his party to do the same.
Does that sound principled? Does that sound passionate about “protecting the unborn”?
And knowing this, what do you believe will happen if Trump (and others he is encouraging to soften) are reelected?
Comida para el pensamiento.
Not only that, but abortion number went UP in Trump’s administration for the first time since the 70s, and the Dobbs decision repealing Roe resulted in an actual net increase in abortions. It seems like if you want to reduce abortions, Trump is the one candidate you should NOT vote for.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/25/what-the-data-says-about-abortion-in-the-us/
Marin Heiskell:
This issue is now in the hands of the American public. That was the goal. Did you honestly believe abortion would ever disappear? We do not fight against evil because we know we will win. We fight against evil because we know that God has already won and we are on His side, regardless of the outcome.
“Reducing abortion” by mandating abortion is similar to allowing discrimination in order to decrease discrimination.
cinthia-
I never said nor thought abortion would disappear. If you’ve seen my other posts, I’ve shared my concerns about the way current abortion mandates and/or bans are written (and have been enforced) due to certain nuances that can fall through the cracks. (I believe we do agree the horrific way that the women in TN and TX were trotted into court to “prove” they needed abortions – with their medical records becoming public records openly discussed by lawyers instead of doctors – all while in terrible physical and emotional pain is NOT the way we want to see things play out). I also think that a huge part of seeing abortions decline (which we all want) is NOT solely about a court ruling; it’s looking upstream at root causes, which are quite complex.
I was larifying that people talk about the reversal of Roe v Wade as if it banned abortion. Even the “Trump appointed judges who helped overturn Roe v Wade” comment implies Trump placed judges on the court who outlawed abortion. In actuality, Trump NOMINATED judges to the SCOTUS, who then were confirmed by the Senate (that is different from various judges Trump APPOINTED to state and local courts) who interpreted the Roe v Wade ruling differently, making it an issue that goes back to the states. It didn’t end with the SCOTUS ruling.
And yes, the CDC, the Guttmacher Institute, Gallup, Pew Research Center and KFF all have data that show abortions have gone up since Roe v Wade was reversed – this was a sharp reversal from an overall downward trend over the past few decades – with those downward trends escalating under Democratic administrations.
cinthia-
What are your thoughts on Trump now saying state abortion mandates are too strict? And encouraging other GOP leaders to soften their stance on abortion so they can win the election?
Ms. Norbeck:
¿Entonces?
What’s the end game in overturning Roe v. Wade? To show God that we did the “right” thing as a nation? Or, to save lives? If it is to save lives, what good did the Trump administration or reversing Roe v. Wade do? Without any change to the law, after 40 years of steadily declining abortion rates through various administrations, the abortion rate SINCE 2012 has been LOWER than it was BEFORE Roe v. Wade. That is, until the trend reversed in 2017 and rose throughout the previous Trump administration.
So, what does legislation solve (remember prohibition)? And, what is it you’re looking for? More babies saved, or legislation that makes one feel good?
Ideology is simplistic… black and white. Reality, truth and justice are more nuanced.
“Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” ~Jesus
David Jay:
Sorry, David, but truth is NEVER “nuanced.” Truth stands whether the outcome is what you wanted or not. God is the author of life, not death. His Son came to eliminate the latter and enhance the former. That is truth, and it is not “nuanced.”
Faith warriors throughout history have done the right thing. Often, they lost in the short-term. In the long-term, God saw what they did and He knew their hearts. They will be rewarded accordingly.
So, you are looking at abortion through the eyes of human beings. Try looking at it through God’s eyes and see what you see. God always looks beyond human outcomes to the intent and heart behind actions.
If you think sinning is a good thing in order to decrease sin, you are sadly deluded.
I agree that truth is never nuanced. However, circumstances can be nuanced.
And what I find unfortunate about the conversation around abortion is how people begin making assumptions and accusations about those involved in nuanced circumstances to make everything fit into perfect boxes.
Example: when a pregnant woman has to choose between her life and the life of her child, that’s a nuanced circumstance. What’s the point of statements like “the child is innocent, the one who slaughtered the child isn’t” in circumstances like that? How is that helping address the issue – or bring about healing to the woman in such a situation?
Murder comes with hate in the heart. Nobody knows what is in the heart of the woman having the abortion except God. To deny a woman her right to choose adds to her anguish in a way that hurts God as well. It’s about intent just as all sin is. It’s about intent of the heart and only God knows that about each of us and our choices. That’s what judgement day is all about.
Don’t kid yourself Jeanette. The vast majority of abortions are for the “mother’s” convenience and what about the “intent” of the innocent murdered child. I’m sure that child intended to live rather that be painfully slaughtered.
Craig – please don’t presume that you know the intent or heart of others. I think it’s good to discuss the IMPACT of abortion on women, families, and communities. But to go around making statements as if you personally know the INTENT or hearts of the “vast majority” women who receive abortions is overstepping into God’s territory.
Let’s focus on impact, not presume intent.
Marin, you mentioned the impact of abortion on women, families, and communities. What about the impact on the innocent unborn child who is painfully slaughtered? Have you seen the aftermath of an abortion? It’s horrific. Where is your compassion for the child?
As to “intent”, no “intent” justifies such a horrific and cruel deed.
Craig – I said nothing about intent justifying anything. I just said don’t assume you know “most women’s” intent per your comment. And quoting all the Christianese about the unborn doesn’t make you knowledgable about the hearts of “most women” who choose to have an abortion. It just doesn’t.
I have personally known women who have had abortions, and none were skipping to the clinic or stopping off to pick up a pill while on their way to work because a baby was a mere inconvenience. These women had to make GUT wrenching decisions due to a variety of equally painful circumstances (physically abusive husbands, medical conditions, etc.).
These decisions still haunt them – and I believe the body of Christ should be the FIRST place welcoming them to provide healing for their emotions and spirits versus the FIRST place full of accusations and assumptions.
Have you sat down and had a conversation with a woman who has had to make such a decision? Have you asked her about the impact on her heart, mind, spirit, body, or family? Abortion is a tragedy that touches MANY. Haven’t we seen and learned that it’s rare for a decision or action to only impact one person?
I ask you where YOUR compassion is – and why you see it as this either/or situation:
you don’t have to EITHER have compassion for the mother, family and community, OR the baby. Why can’t it be yes/and – that you can have compassion for the mother, family and community AND the baby? What is so hard about that?
Marin Heiskell:
Two points:
1) …”with those downward trends escalating under Democratic administrations.” Do you believe Democratic administrations are the cause of fewer abortions, if indeed they are? If so, could you provide a correlation/causation link? It is possible you are equating correlation with causation when there could be a multitude of factors playing into this phenomenon. It is also possible the statistics being reported are completely false.
2) When Corrie ten Boom (and a multitude of other heroes) risked their lives to save Jews, did they do so because they believed they would effect the cessation of World War II, or did they do so because they knew in their hearts that it was the right thing to do?
One other serious point: Are you aware that most women who have abortions have had previous ones?
cinthia-
1. I think there are WAY too many variables involved to point to ANY ONE thing as the reason or cause for abortion trends. (And I trust the 4 credible, nonpartisan sources reporting these same trends over the last 40+ years; however, pre-Roe data is WAY more speculative given the illegality of abortion at the time). This is why there is no ONE answer (e.g. just reversing Roe) to “solving” abortion. In prior discussions, you’ve seen me point to “thinking upstream” to address reasons why abortion becomes an option as part of reversing the trend. For example: did you know a significant percentage of women who have multiple abortions did so due to medical complications? Why don’t we spend less time demonizing these women or trotting them out as “bad examples”, and more time probing, researching and getting answers to these complications? Notice I’ve never been “anti-pro life”; I have consistently said “Reversing Roe won’t solve the problem; it will merely send the problem underground, which could be MORE dangerous and tragic.”
So no, I don’t think abortions trend downward SOLELY because there’s a Democratic administration (or vice versa). I do think it’s worth exploring what administrations are doing differently on both local and national levels to uncover correlations/causations (I’m sure someone has done it; I just haven’t). Because regardless of political party or pro-life/choice stance, I believe seeing abortions trend downward is what we all want.
2. re: Corrie ten Boom. While I assume it’s the latter, I actually wouldn’t be surprised if it were both. It’s another either/or that I see as a yes/and.
Your statement is a contradiction of itself. In one sentence, you condemn murder and in the next you justify it for a subset. It can’t be both ways. Abortion is murder, plain and simple. So if murder comes with hate in the heart, the woman having an abortion has so much hate in her heart for her unborn child that she murders it. There isn’t any gray area there. If the woman has “anguish in her heart” over the unborn infant, all she has to do it give birth to the child and give it up for adoption. In that scenario, the child does not die and no sin is committed. Wouldn’t that be the wiser way to go than to snuff out an infant before it is able to live out it’s life? Because that is what hurts God the most. If we took the logic of your assertions above out to their logical conclusion, murder could be justified in almost any situation. If my neighbor was causing me anguish because he played loud music every day I could go kill him and I might be OK because my intent wasn’t wrong, according to your logic. But the neighbor is still just as dead. And the sin is still there. Once you go down the moral relativism path, like the above statement, things like abortion is what you get. And people trying to rationalize it and remove the sin.
Eddie, The revealing question to me is if people who consider abortion to be murder support murder charges against the woman who has an abortion?
Your answer is an emphatic “Yes”. The unborn child is innocent. The one who slaughtered the innocent child isn’t.
Craig –
I’ll share the same thing I said above: while truth is not nuanced, circumstances can be. And I hate when discussions on topics like abortion break down into making assumptions and accusations of those involved in nuanced circumstances (like choosing between the life of mom and child, or forcing a pre-teen girl to birth the child of a rapist or relative who molested her) in order to make things fit into perfect, clean cut boxes.
I am not confident in accusing women in these nuanced circumstances of “slaughtering” their babies (nor do I see the point) or charging them with murder. I can’t confidently assume I’d know what I’d do in these circumstances either, nor can I confidently point to a scripture that outlines what they should do. However, I CAN point to verses to provide healing – which I do believe is my role as a believer.
What would you hope to achieve by having women in these nuanced situations charged with murder? Can you imagine the trauma of, after surviving a potentially terminal pregnancy, being charged with murder and told you “slaughtered” your child by choosing your own life? Or after being raped or molested, being charged with murder for choosing not to birth the child? Wow.
Followers of Jesus Ghris should not vote for a rapist or a convicted criminal
Exactly. Any “Christian” who votes for Democrat candidates (due to their indefensible platforms/policies) is at best deceived, or at worst reprobate.
But y’all accept killing tons of babies, children, moms and dads, by supporting Israel as they murder them. And you likely support killing people on death row, many of whom are completely innocent and wrongly convicted, and you’re probably are ok with killing someone who comes unwelcome to your home. How pro-life is that??? A true follower of Jesus can absolutely support Harris. We don’t have to support her stance on abortion or on fracking or other things…These are our choices: Trump or Harris. Trump values Hitler, Hannibal, Orban, Kim Jong, he uses and abuses people and the greed and self centered, narcissistic behaviors are a danger to him having that kind of power. He could care less about you, babies, the bible or anything Christion. Did you see him when he was asked if he ever asked God for forgiveness? He doesn’t think he needs too. He’s a danger. And I’m not killing any babies.
Perhaps the group should concentrate on how Kamala Harris’ behavior and actions are in line with scripture. Killing babies up to full term, sleeping with a married man to advance her career, promoting violent protests. Might take them more seriously as a 1st amendment case.
“Projection” is the defense mechanism of accusing others of what you want to avoid recognizing in yourself.
Willie Brown and his wife had been separated for 15 – 20 years. Trump was living with each wife when he cheated on them.
Willie Brown in no way made Harris career successful. Trump took over the business “his dad created,” then filed for bankruptcy multiple times, and his dad bailed him out with more money each time. He also profited from stiffing small contractors out of payment, stealing from his charity, and his family, and cheating on his taxes.
But “you” want to warp on a rumor about Harris. I don’t blame you. Trump is a mess. It’s like focusing on the splinter in someone else’s eye, when you have a “log” in yours.
Dan Dooley, thank you for this statement.
Just to be fair I think an ad needs to be made with Harris words on abortion vs the 6th commandment of Thou Shalt Not Kill, Harris headlines about her adultery vs the 7th commandment of Thou Shalt Not commit Adultery, Harris own words vs the 9th commandment of Thou Shalt Not bear False Witness.
Let’s measure apples to apples: what if Harris was married 3 times, 5 kids from the marriages, and at least 2 flings outside the marriage vows… I too, then would not support Harris. But, that is what you get by voting for Trump… I sleep well at night, because my 3 daughters learned Trump’s immorality.
Though I voted for Kamala twice I am changing my vote to Cornel West. He hasn’t lied or changed his positions. Kamala has gone from a fair immigration system to closing the border. Gun control to owning a gun herself.
Find the person who stays the course.
You sleep well at night knowing that there are now “boys” calling themselves “girls” in your 3 daughter’s school locker room? You sleep well at night knowing that your 3 daughters could be seriously hurt maybe for a life time by a boy playing as a “girl” on the opposing sports team? You sleep well at night knowing that your 3 daughters may miss their chance for a position and/or a scholarship opportunity because a boy is playing sports as a “girl”? You sleep well at night knowing that if your young daughters, even under the age of 14, got pregnant that they could get an abortion without your knowledge? I guess your 3 daughters will pay the price for you sleeping well and your agreement with Harris and the democratic policies.
Tim, Greg and John:
Isaiah 5:20:
“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.”
Be careful and be certain you are on Jesus’ side. It looks like you’ve crossed over into the darkness. Often, once there, it’s next to impossible to turn around. As John the Baptist famously intoned, “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.”
100% truth, Doctor! These are the days of revelation & God will reveal the full truth. Things and people are not what they seem to be.
Any person or organization that can endorse or vote for a candidate that promotes abortion, (the killing of babies), and homosexuals, has no right to condemn Franklin Graham or Donald Trump. You better go read the Bible again.
Franklin Graham has done more to help Americans in need than you so called evangel Christians all put together have done.
And as for Donald Trump, at least he supports our Christian Beliefs, you better think about it!!!
Let’s face it. There are Evangelicals who are deeply concerned about the morals and policies of Donald Trump. They refuse to kowtow to him based on the peer pressure of fellow Evangelicals who believe that he’s God’s man for the job.
They are simply thinking critically and Biblically about the issues of the day and are entitled to do so.
Abortion is murder. Harris is exponentially more pro-murder than is Trump. Vote accordingly.
Point me to the book, chapter, and verse that says “abortion is murder”. Not your interpretation, not an interpretation from a pop bible study book. Not an analytical leap from being “created in God’s image” and “knowing you from the womb”. Actual text from the holy scriptures. I won’t hold my breath.
John, have you seen the aftermath of an abortion? Limbs and other body parts are easily identifiable…the later the procedure (which Democrats champion) the more identifiable the remains of a once innocent child with a beating heart. If that doesn’t coincide with your definition of murder you are a truly lost individual. The Bible doesn’t explicitly state that God is omniscient but that doesn’t deny God’s omniscience. Your argument fails.
Also, I don’t know a single Christian who believes Trump is a Christian. He is severely morally deficient. I voted for DeSantis in the primaries but will hold my nose and vote for Trump because abortion is murder.
Hi Craig. In Trumps last administration, abortion actually went UP for the first time since the 70s. Then the Dobbs decision reversing Roe resulted in a net increase of abortions (2200) the next year. So really, if your main issue is abortion, you should vote for anyone BUT Trump.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/25/what-the-data-says-about-abortion-in-the-us/
Thanks Jen. I’ll check it out but we both agree that abortion is the painful slaughtering of an unborn child-right? Or are you a Christian-hating, pro-abortion, Harris partisan?
Hi Craig. I do not think abortion is “the painful slaughtering of an unborn child” because that is unnecessarily hyperbolic language that does nothing to describe the actual situation or work toward solutions, but only creates division and moral superiority.
I used to think that though.
I think abortion is an incredibly sad outcome, and the result, largely, of circumstances that we as a society have created and continue to accept as a reasonable cost. This is because I now know women who have had abortions and have heard their stories. Not all of them are tragic, but all of them knew that carrying or having a baby was an untenable option for a variety of reasons, financial, social, physical, mental, or lack of fetal viability. Some of them are very sad about it. Some of them are very relieved. Most are a combination of really complex emotions.
I don’t hate christians. I am one. I am, however, incredibly disappointed in american evangelicalism as a whole, especially how duped they are by the political pro-life rhetoric. I was also duped. Until I learned that we actually KNOW really effective ways to reduce abortion rates (poverty reduction, education, comprehensive sex education, and easily accessible birth control), which seems like great news right? But christians as a voting block vote against the things that are proven to reduce abortion over and over again. This leads me to believe that most christians DON’T actually want to reduce abortion- or they’d be actively doing the things that reduce abortion.
And I absolutely am a partisan democrat (who will be proudly voting for Harris) but it’s because democratic policies are much better for the flourishing of all people, especially those on the margins, and republican policies are generally disastrous for them.
While you are waiting, you can provide us with scripture that says that abortion is acceptable to God. Pleading silence on an issue is never, ever an endorsement for the behavior the person is trying to push. People with confused theology also use the same tired bait & switch to justify homosexuality being acceptable because Jesus didn’t specifically mention it. Jesus didn’t have to mention it. Jesus speaks, just as God does, of the only acceptable and sanctified sexual relationship as being between one man and one woman. No other sexual relationship is condoned or accepted as not sinful. And those other sexual relationships are condemned in the strongest of terms in both the Old and New Testament. Murder is condemned in the strongest of terms in both the Old and New Testament. Abortion is murder. A person made in the image of God is murdered. I matters not one bit that that person is murdered inside the womb instead of outside of it. It is still murder. So your question above has already been answered before it was even asked. You just don’t like the answer.
When Israel started sacrificing its children to the god/demon Moleck, God rebuked the people via the Old Testament prophets. In Isaiah He says, those were my children you killed and then warns of the terrible judgement to come. In the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy (30:19) God says, “Now choose LIFE so that you and your CHILDREN may LIVE and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice and hold fast to him”.
Cathie, sure, but God also killed all of the first born sons in Egypt (Exodus 12:29) , God killed everyone, including women and children in Sodom and Gomora (Genesis 19:23-29), God commands Saul to destroy Amalek including “both man and woman, child and infant” (1 Samuel 15:3), and throughout Deuteronomy God commands the people to destroy the people in the lands they will be invading (Deuteronomy 2:34; 3:6; 20:16-18).
So God also directly kills children, and commands God’s people to kill children, if you believe the Bible to be a historical accounting of God’s interaction with people.
Jen, those commands from God were to a unique people for a unique purpose in unique circumstances. I find them just as objectionable as you but we’re not God. We don’t have the prerogative of Deity. Do you claim moral superiority over God? If Hitler was an infant and you knew the future and were able to kill him what would you do? I suggest you humble yourself Jen rather than attempting to impugn God’s holiness and righteousness. I’m still waiting for your answer to my previous question.
Christians on this thread, pray for John Pepper. Jesus loves John. Jesus died and rose again to save John. Please pray for him. Don’t give in to hate.
While I agree with the sentiment of the ad (and plan to vote Harris next month), I personally think wading into the “here’s what a now-deceased person would support” waters is a bit murky. We have all seen what slicing and dicing footage can do to a narrative.
Case in point: all the clips of MLK giving one line of one speech has led to a lot of misrepresentation of what his stances were on racial justice and claims of what he’d allegedly support if alive.
I think these tactics should be left alone.
It isn’t the use of a decedent that is “murky.” It is always disturbing when a person, media, entity pulls the God card. It is an attempt to sanitize one side and malign the other. At that point in a discussion, once someone says “God told me” or “God showed me” then the countervailing party might as well walk away because you can’t argue with God.
Harris has not been tested for qualities of leadership required of the job. Most people are not looking for either of their personal testimonies.
Dustin – I agree with a lot of what you say here. As I posted on an older thread, my passion about this is NOT rooted in hatred or “derangement” about Trump. It’s more of dismay in seeing the body of Christ elevate support of this man to a salvation defining issue.
I am passionate about my salvation, and what the Lord has done for me – even before I knew I needed Him. I REFUSE to believe that is muted because I don’t support Trump. To read comments like “a true follower of Christ ” is appalling. They are passive aggressive declarations and condemnations of the souls of others – all over a human being and a political party.
I am passionate about not seeing the body of Christ go down this route of self-righteousness (tying what makes us right before the Lord to a vote), divisiveness (if you don’t vote like us you’re not one of us), and spiritual maniuplation (making these “God” statements to keep people who love the Lord in line, or having them “prove” it by voting how you want). Our righteousness before God is rooted in Christ alone. NOT Trump or the GOP (or Harris or the Democratic party). None of this should even be mentioned in the same conversation.
I haven’t seen the ad, but would like to. More to the point, I would like to see the full segment of that part of Trump’s speech. With zero knowledge beyond what I have written, I would bet every penny I have that the excerpt was more Trump free – forming. He loves to do this, and almost every time he does, it’s for the purpose of getting laughs. The previous commenters have apparently failed to notice that Trump has a schtick.
It’s an extremely New York City schtick, very 1960s. Watch his mannerisms, listen to his speech pattern when he does it. It’s self deprecating, and I say this with the fondness that a kid who grew up watching such comedians couldn’t fail to have, unmistakably and charmingly Jewish.
One thing it isn’t is an example of case making.
The Trump side should retaliate with an ad in which Vice President Harris quite seriously advocates unrestricted abortion and the benefits which accrue to a society which allows its prepubescent children to take destructive hormone treatments as a prelude to sexual butchery.
If you had clicked the link to the ad in the second word of this article, you’d see that directly below the ad, and very prominently, there are links to longer videos with context for all the clips.
While Trump and his supporters say that Democrats’ rhetoric has led to the attempts on his life, Trump fantasizes about protestors at his rallies being physically assaulted. But I guess that’s acceptable, because it’s all about “getting laughs” and it’s just “a schtick”.
If people see a more Christlike representation in the Harris/Walz campaign I fear many are being led astray. The dishonesty. The disaterous policies. Threats to free speech. A love for abortion. I don’t see how anyone who claims to be a Christian and has morals and a mind capable of reason could support Kamala. Even Christians aren’t immune to TDS.
I was raped during my college years. I was also groped and talked about sexually while on the job. I was a conservative Christian girl that did not dress immodestly or flirt with men. I cannot ever vote for a man who at any time advocated forcing sexual attentions on a resistant person. I cannot vote for someone that I believe to be morally corrupt, who only started claiming “Christian” when he realized how many votes that would bring him. I also believe abortion ends a child’s life. So, I will not vote because I cannot support either. Both candidates are repugnant to me. Both parties are repugnant to me. The majority of politicians, even ones that claim to be Christians, do not care about showing Christ to the world; they do not care about the “little” people. They only care about winning and their party because they need the funding and notoriety their party gives them. No party is more honest or righteous. This vitriol and hating on each other because of political parties hurts the cause of Christ way more than “sinning” does. Where is the emphasis on being like Jesus? Where is the emphasis on grace? Where is the emphasis on the Fruits of the Spirit?
EFH: I guess when you no longer believe in prayer, or perhaps feel the need to hedge your bet, you resort to Madison Avenue tactics. What hypocrisy. For a critique of EFH, see this site: https://thehill.com/opinion/4870606-evangelicals-harris-christianity/ BTW, EFH funding comes from “Faith Voters for Good”, a 501(c)(4). Good luck trying to identify their donors. Dare we say “dark money”? https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2024/03/unprecedented-surge-in-dark-money-floods-2024-elections/
If you can, put politics aside for a minute. The issue here is representation. If you were dead, would you want your image and remarks used to promote something you disagreed with while living? No, you wouldn’t. I’ve not seen the ad, but it sounds like it not only makes Trump look like a fool and worse; it also makes Billy Graham look bad too. If Evangelicals for Harris used clips from “The Chosen” with words from the Jesus character interspersed with Trump, you can bet Dallas Jenkins would be threatening a lawsuit as well.
Yes, the issue is “representation”, but not in the way you think. Trump and his supports claim that only he represents the will of god to be the president but provide no evidence. Trump is represented as a great man, but he has a history of infidelity, business destruction, intimidation, and proven dishonest business dealings in not paying his employees and not honoring business contracts. You can try to compare and contrast both candidates using Jesus all you want, but that is disingenuous. Harris and her supporters do not claim her to be chosen by god or a divinely appointed savior.
John Pepper, that is a very thoughtful reply. I wonder what Jesus would think having his image and remarks used to promote so many things that He disagrees with.
Both main parties (republicans and democrats) are immoral and corrupt. Third parties should be given a chance.
Billy Graham said, “The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it.” In an interview with Christianity Today (2011), he also said he was grateful to have ministered to the needs of “people in high places … but looking back, I know I sometimes crossed the line, and I wouldn’t do that now,” and he “would have steered clear of politics.”
“If immorality prevails in the land, the fault is ours in a great degree. If there is a decay of conscience, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the public press lacks moral discrimination, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the church is degenerate and worldly, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the world loses its interest in religion, the pulpit is responsible for it. If Satan rules in our halls of legislation, the pulpit is responsible for it. If our politics become so corrupt that the very foundations of our government are ready to fall away, the pulpit is responsible for it. Let us not ignore this fact, my dear brethren; but let us lay it to heart, and be thoroughly awake to our responsibility in respect to the morals of this nation.”
Note the statement about satan ruling in our halls of legislation. Does this speak to where we are today? Can you guess which well known church leader said this? No, it was Charles Finney… in 1873. If Charles is right, then what we see in society today is essentially a reflection of the condition of the church. If anyone has been following the investigative articles published by The Roys Report for any length of time, this should be obvious.
Those who think that electing the ‘right’ person would save the nation, are fighting the wrong fight. The battle is much closer to home… in our very hearts. In fact, those of us who think we “have” or “are” the solution to society’s ills, ought to be most suspect.
“You pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.” ~Jesus
Well, perhaps these Evangelicals would not accept king David to reign over them, either. Because in his own words, king David was a murderer, in his own words, he was an adulterer, he disobeyed God’s commandment and counted the people of Israel, thus becoming responsible for the death of tens of thousands. He was full of vengeance against his enemies and he had spilled a lot of blood.
But the Spirit and the anointing of the Lord was on him, because, despite his mistakes, he revered God. Kamala Harris, with her policies on transgenderism and abortion, and other crucial matters, shows not such reverence. And honestly, I don’t remember her to ever express any reverence to God, either.
And for those who think that being spiritual means that they cannot be bothered to participate in the electoral process, I want to point out that if the leadership of a nation was irrelevant to God, He wouldn’t have brought salvation to Israel by raising leaders.
He would choose to do it in another way, but instead, we see that He constantly raised leaders, political, military or religious. Not all them were always perfect, but still God worked through leaders, because He has established all authorities [remember how He chose the leaders of the tribes?] and He chooses to work through authorities. Otherwise our world would have become chaotic.
Sofia, the comparison to king David has been explored ad nauseam. here’s a particularly on point letter to the editor about it.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/story/2024-04-25/difference-between-donald-trump-and-king-david
To the editor: The letter writer who defended evangelical Christians’ support of former President Trump was at least partially correct — God does accomplish great things through imperfect people. However, his reference to the biblical story of King David doesn’t support the notion that God was pleased with how he did things.
For the most part, the kings of Israel were such a bad bunch that they led their people into idolatry and ultimately into utter destruction. In the case of David, unlike our former president, he was a brave, righteous young man when he was anointed by God’s prophet to lead Israel. Also, unlike our former president, once he committed his grievous sins, he spent the rest of his life in remorse and repentance for his transgressions.
Our former president has never expressed remorse for his alleged adultery, his constant lies or his adjudicated sexual assault.
So, I don’t think our former president can in any reasonable way be thought of as simply an imperfect person accomplishing God’s will. He hasn’t the slightest notion of what God’s will is, much less any intention of carrying it out.
Randell Wilkinson, Tustin
You don’t know the bible at all, then. A key point of Samuels, Kings, and Chronicles is not a recount of David’s days as a “great” king but a justification of his and his dynasty’s rule over Israel and Judah. Saul was king; by ancient tradition, his children were supposed to be heirs to the throne. David usurped the throne, and to justify his and his heirs’ claim to the throne. Thus was born the myths and legends of David’s exploits and characters.
You basically state here that all leaders are flawed. The bible also says god raises and fells kings. So if Kamala is elected, by your logic it is because god allowed – nay, ORDAINED – it to happen. Will you then accept your god’s divine plan and respect her as POTUS? Something tells me you won’t. Very convenient to gloss over real evils of Trump and focus on Kamala’s stance on social issues.
John, I have honestly never met any member of this boogeyman army of Trump supporters you speak of who deify him or extoll his righteousness. Have you encountered any such person on this thread? No, you haven’t. I believe this “straw-army” you have attempted to create is simply an attempt on your part to justify your hatred of Christians and Christianity in general. I don’t hate you John. I’d like to give you my email address so we can go deeper about Jesus.
Also, the painful slaughtering of an innocent unborn child is not a “social issue”. Legalizing marijuana is a social issue. Abortion is a holocaust.
I don’t hate you either, Craig Sanders. Just don’t deny the reality that Trump supporters are filled with both ordinary civilians and “christian” members of congress who compare the donald to jesus or talk about his “anointing”. All you need to do is lift your fingers, do a light google search, and read factual reporting which are backed by recorded quotes and videos.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jun/10/marjorie-taylor-greene-trump-jesus
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/god-gave-us-trump-christian-media-evangelicals-preach-messianic-message-2024-03-22/
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/14/trump-shooting-megachurch-sermons-00168146
Oh btw, this bible you claim draw your belief about abortion being “painful slaughtering”? Yeah, it values the life of a woman far more than the unborn fetus. Time for you to crack that bad boy back open and read exodus 21:22. Or will you somehow conduct a lil more eisegesis and somehow explain that the fact that what you might call “infanticide” is punishable by…a fine?
Listen, I think abortion is a terrible thing. As Clinton said, it should be “safe, legal, and rare”. But don’t base your beliefs – and more importantly FORCE them unto others – based on justifications you can’t prove.
John, as I’ve stated before, Trump is a vile individual. I will never defend his character. I voted for DeSantis. I find any comparisons of Trump to Jesus preposterous. I’m sure you do too. We are in agreement again, yes, abortion is a terrible thing. That’s the primary reason (there are others) why I’m voting for Trump and not Harris. Regarding Exodus 21:22, be nice John. Eisegesis? Reread the verse and I suggest utilizing a Hebrew Lexicon for context and clarification. The unborn child was killed accidentally and unintentionally. The two men were striving with “each other”. There’s nothing accidental or unintentional about abortion. It’s the intentional and painful slaughtering of an innocent unborn child. John, I’m out. I want to get the gospel out in these last days and not hate. I’m praying for you John. Take good care.
Yes, Craig Sanders. I agree with you.
Sofia –
David, with all his flaws, was a man after God’s own heart. We see how David responded when confronted with his sin throughout scripture – with confession and repentance (Psalm 51 is an amazing example).
Donald Trump has openly said that he has never asked God for forgiveness because he hasn’t needed it. We see him repeatedly deflect, blame, double down, or pull a “whataboutism” when confronted with his sins. That is NOT indicative of a man after God’s own heart.
Comparison stops there. There is actually an article on this site that thoroughly lays out additional details on why Trump is NOT a modern day King David. I encourage you to check it out.
Honestly, this conversation is totally crazy. Who said that Trump is like king David? The issue here is choosing a political leader. And some people find character flaws in Pr Trump and decide to support Kamala Harris, as if she were a person of indegrity. Seriously? Her political views for how society should be organized are so detrimental to the values we uphold as Christians. This is the issue. And unless you decide to take the step to vote for Pr Trump, you will leave open the way for Harris to implement her policies. Is that what you want to happen in America?
I was responding to the comment above: “Well, perhaps these Evangelicals would not accept king David to reign over them, either.”, which was comparing Trump to King David. This comparison (along with the own of Trump and Cyrus) has become commonplace in recent years, hence the articles and comments calling out the flaws in such comparisons.
Voting for Harris is not a declaration about her morality or integrity. I also know voting for Trump is not a declaration of his morality and integrity. Everyone has their own reasons for how they play to cast their vote; rather than make assumptions (“Harris voters support mutulating children!” “Trump voters support racism!” are outrageous accusations), how about sitting down and discussing it with someone who is voting differently from you? Maybe you’ll learn a Harris (or Trump) supporter isn’t as “evil loving” as you think.
Marin Heiskell:
Perhaps you need to re-visit the differences between President Trump’s positions and Harris’s, and then re-evaluate. They are not the same, and President Trump is not a racist.
It would be so helpful if you would stop lying about his positions.
Marin Heiskell:
Your words: “Voting for Harris is not a declaration about her morality or integrity.”
You’re right. It’s a declaration about YOUR morality and integrity.
cinthia-
Please reread- I did NOT say Trump is a racist. What I said is that taking the time to sit down and have conversations with those who vote differently will help us realize some of the assumptions being made LIKE “Trump voters support racism” or “Harris voters support mutilating children” are outrageous (and therefore untrue). These huge blanket accusations are strawman arguments are little more than condescending, prejudicial, and divisive – and they SHOULD be beneath us as believers. Emphasis on SHOULD.
I DO believe Trump has said and done very racially biased and prejudiced things (you cannot convince me that denying housing to Black people isn’t one of them); I have pointed to the public legal filings and fines as proof, so I’m not lying about his actions. However, I CANNOT speak to what’s in his heart beyond that (and whatever comes out of his mouth – as we know “out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks”). This is why I did NOT say “Trump is a racist”; I also don’t believe Trump voters “support racism” either; again, read my comment.
Likewise, I will not make a sweeping generalization by saying how you vote is solely indicative of one’s integrity or morality. Would you like for me to believe “voting for a thrice married adulterer” fully represents your morality and integrity? Or how about I consider that you know the Lord, and that we are left with making two flawed choices, NEITHER of which will fully represent what we believe?
2 Timothy 3:1-5. Not a “sermon” from Graham rather a reading of his text. Not proprietary speech. Just Scripture. Trump quotes interspersed. Let the viewer draw their own conclusions. The words of each speak for themselves.
* Abortion: Has flip flopped (now for it) * Abortion
* He lies like he breathes
* Diehard Republicans against
Trump: He’s unfit
* Generals: He’s unfit
* Cabinet members: He’s unfit
* Over 1400 children permanently separated
from their parents (Cruel!!!)
* Covid – Over a million dead
* Instigating violence: Constantly
* Conspiracies: They’re eating cats & dog,
they’re controlling the weather, etc…
* January 6: Enough said (Automatic disqualification)
* Classified Documents: National security
(Treasonous case pending- Automatic disqualification)
* Rhetoric: Unfit
* Dictator friends: Russia said he DID send covid kits while
Americans suffered
* Allies: Please don’t, the world needs stability
* Moral character: Unfit
* Emoluments Clause violations: Multiple
* Convicted felon: Should be automatic disqualification
* Constant grift – coins, watches, part of his suit! Etc…
* I’m out of characters
All of this fake piety. Stop saying “pro-abortion”. Nobody is “pro-abortion.”
Murder IS illegal. If abortion is “simply” murder, it would, and would have been illegal – period. NO ONE is debating if “murder” should be legal. NO ONE is “requiring or forcing” abortions like in China.
Debra Howard, Marin Heiskell, and Jen Manlief:
All three of you seem to think that voting for Harris is okay. That’s your right. Just don’t justify it by touting her character, her accomplishments, or her positions. She possesses a flawed character, no accomplishments, and far-left positions.
In voting for her, you reveal the common characteristics of her supporters: Mostly female, mostly left-leaning, and mostly angry at President Trump. Sadly, this stance does not support Biblical standards, American principles, or intelligent analysis.
The push-back you are receiving on this site is from people who see this clearly and wish you could, too.
cinthia-
Just as you back your choice by listing his actions, accomplishments and positions (which I find to be questionable) – which is your right – why can’t we do the same for our choice? Do we not have that SAME right?
You speak as if I shouldn’t be proud to be a female (the Lord made me this way). My positions are centrist; both parties have left me by moving farther to the right and left. And I am not mad at Trump:
– I am mad that Christians have resorted to condemning me and belittling what Jesus has done for me all over Trump.
– I am angry Trump has the power to nullify my salvation in your eyes.
– I am angry you insult my intelligence (I am FAR from stupid), my patriotism (I come from GENERATIONS of Black soldiers, many who fought for this country when it denied them the right to vote or walk through the front door of a restaurant, and they STILL raised me to love the US), and the testimony and calling the Lord has put on my life (you have more concern over how I vote than over what the Lord has saved me from and called me to)…all over Trump.
– I am angry that man has that much power among believers (notice, I do not deny your salvation over Trump or Harris; I see you as a fellow believer).
The pushback you receive from me is my insistence that Trump does NOT have that sort of power over my soul, and will NEVER nullify my salvation or weaken my testimony; to say, accuse or imply (even via passive aggressive statements) of anything otherwise is unBiblical. I wish you would see it too.
Marín:
Sadly, you keep bringing up Trump and his so-called power.
He only has any power if you give it to him. For me personally, he has absolutely no power at all. I simply agree with his stance on major issues like the border. This does not mean he has power over me or those who agree with his views, does it?
Regarding your salvation, that is between you and the Lord. Who am I to judge your salvation when Jesus has called you by name? Nobody can take you out of His hand. You are His forever if you have committed your life to him.
My question is this, as I stated before: Does your voting for anti-Biblical policies reflect Jesus and His positions? Stated differently, because I am a believer, I try to glean what I can from the Bible regarding issues like transgenderism, abortion, border security, the economy, fiscal responsibility, etc. What I find there influences how I cast my vote because I am a Christian, a Christ-follower. The Bible is my guide book.
Is it yours? If so, I am curious as to how you justify voting for lax border security, transgender surgery for children, etc.
Both candidates are flawed individuals, so voting for either one based on character is a lost cause. Voting for Biblical policies is not.
cinthia-
What you fail to see is that you DO give Trump power when making statements like “I don’t see how a Bible believing Christian can vote for Harris (or isn’t voting for Trump)”. That is calling into question someone’s standing before the Lord over if they vote for Trump or not. That’s powerful.
Neither party’s platform is 100 percent Biblical. So it’s errant AND spiritually dangerous to make such blanket statements as “voting for this party is Biblical” and “voting for that party is unbiblical.” Scripture tells us to care for the poor, and to not show favoritism based on nationality…yet GOP economic policies in recent decades have consistently harmed the poor, the immigrants, and the elderly, and provide economic privileges for the rich (with little “trickling down”). That is a Biblical concern.
The same policies that the GOP is using to ban LGBTQIA books are being used to ban Black history books in schools too. (See the uproar over the Ruby Bridges book in Florida). Reading and learning about Black history – specifically the role the church played in the civil rights movement – is important. Did it occur THAT is why I’m hesitant to fully back such bans?
I don’t believe any one party holds all the answers to these complex challenges, which is why I’m not fervently excited about either or judging the spirituality of those who vote differently. And making sweeping generalizations of people and oversimplifications of platforms merely divides without solving anything.
And this is it. And does it matter any more?
Dr. Cynthia Norbeck, this is true.
Below is a link taking you to an interview of a lawyer who has known Kamala Harris for YEARS. She’s full of information about Harris’ actions, as well as her character.
https://tuckercarlson.com/tucker-show-harmeet-dhillon?utm_campaign=20241011_oct11dailybriefnonsubs&utm_medium=email&utm_source=iterable&utm_content=harmeetdhillon
And there are also interviews and lawsuits from those who have known and worked with Trump dating back decades. Have you read those?
Got to Evangelicals for Harris website and click on “Kamala’s faith story” to see just how “evangelical” she is–maybe also gives some insight into just how “evangelical” Evangelicals for Harris is as well.
There should be an “Evangelicals for Trump”. I wonder how Trump’s “I’ve never asked for forgiveness because I haven’t needed it” declaration would fit into his faith story.