Using Scripture to Harm or Heal

This is a generated transcript and may contain some spelling errors.

SPEAKERS: LANCE FORD, STEVEN TRACY

steven: The most damaging kind of trauma or of abuse? No. There’s physical, sexual neglect, spiritual, verbal, et cetera. The most damaging is spiritual from all of those years because it, it cuts us off from the most essential resources that are needed for healing. And, and that’s why I think Satan so strategizes to corrupt scripture against survivors because if he can do that, then where do they go?

Lance: Hi, this is Lance Ford and we are really excited to have you at this episode of the Roy’s report. This is a a visit that I’ve been looking forward to for quite a while. Uh, we’re gonna be visiting today with author Steve and Tracy on his new book To Heal or to Harm Scripture’s, use as Poison or Medicine for Abuse Survivors.

And I’m gonna introduce Steve here in just a minute, but before we begin, I just wanna name something plainly. Uh, that’s, that’s really around the theme of, of this book. Um, for many people, scripture has been a place of life and clarity and hope and, uh, but for others, especially for survivors of abuse, it’s also been a place of confusion or even fear and harm.

Not because the Bible itself is cruel, but because it sometimes has been handed to people in ways that that were cruel. And some of you listening may carry verses that were spoken over you at moments when you needed to be protected. Not corrected, um, when you just needed presence and, and not pressure, you were looking for a, a place of safety, not a place of silence or to, to be silenced.

And when that happens, it doesn’t just distort theology, it, it wounds the soul. And today’s conversation isn’t about winning an argument or defending scripture at all costs. It’s about telling the truth, and it’s a, uh, it’s, it’s about asking, uh, whether the way that scripture has been used in moments of abuse or following abuse actually reflects the heart of God.

Or whether it has at times actually betrayed the heart of God. And I’m really grateful to be joined by Steve Tracy that has spent decades walking with survivors and helping the church reckon with the ways, uh, that scripture can either heal or harm. And this isn’t, uh, a conversation, uh, for specialists.

Uh, it’s, it is for pastors, it’s for caregivers. It’s for friends, it’s for family members and especially, uh, for those that have been quietly wounded, whether the, the Bible, um, and, and wondered whether the Bible, uh, still has room for them. And our hope is simple that this time together would lower defenses that it would.

Ease burdens and that it would make space for scripture to be encountered again, not as a weapon, but as a witness to a God that sees and protects and restores always. So I want to introduce you to Steve and, and I told Steve before we came on that sometimes bios can, can come across a, um. As just, uh, boring or something that we think that we should do.

Um, well, I, I really want you to hear, um, Steve’s bio from the, from the backside of, of his new book, because I feel like it’s very warm. It’ll help you know who he is. So, um, Steve, Tracy, uh, has a PhD from the University of Sheffield, which that’s a. As my grandma would say, that’s high cotton Steve. Um, he, he’s the president and international Director for Mending the Soul Ministries, uh, retired professor of theology and ethics at Phoenix Seminary.

He and his wife, Celestia, co-founded and co-lead Mending the Soul, a global mission dedicating to resourcing. And equipping community and faith leaders in informed and compassionate responses to those impacted by abuse. Steven Celestia bring over 40 years of pastoral classroom and clinical experience to their work.

Their sustainable trauma care models and resources are now being implemented successfully. Around the world. Steve, I’m, I’m really glad you’re here. So thanks for being with us today on this, uh, visit. We’re gonna have

steven: really, my joy, really appreciate it.

Lance: Uh, I could tell if I didn’t know anything about you by reading the book that you were at a sage stage in your life.

’cause it just, it just comes for it, it comes through in the book that, uh, this is sage, uh, wisdom and, uh, just really appreciate. What you’ve done here and, and we’re gonna dive into it. Um, before we talk about the book itself, I’m curious, when did you first realize that scripture wasn’t just being misunderstood around abuse, but was actually being used as a weapon?

steven: What, great question. Pretty early on, and it was probably in the mid nineties, so yeah, that’s 30 years ago. Hard to believe. That God really, um, as a pastor at that time, uh, and a very young seminary professor, uh, I started dealing with abuse, uh, with increased frequency. I, I got my PhD to teach New Testament ex of Jesus, not do abuse ministry.

God had their plans much better plans for me at least. Yes. And similarly luster. Uh, as a clinician, thought she was gonna do marriage and family therapy, but real quickly, I’m kind of on a parallel track with me. Uh, she just kept finding abuse in her therapy office as the underlying cause of the presenting problems in marriage, depression, whatever.

And real quickly for both of us, real quickly, as we started by, in God’s providence too. Address abuse with people we loved, for me as a shepherd, for her as a clinician. I mean, almost at the outset we started hearing horrid stories of how scripture had been weaponized against survivors and it just broke our heart.

And that that sense of profound betrayal and tragedy has only grown over the years. Scripture should be life giving it. It was meant to sustain us, to guide us, to encourage us. Um, but Satan, the destroyer, uh, loves to take the best and pervert it so that the best becomes the worst.

Lance: And he knows the scripture well too.

Doesn’t he Better than we do? He knows it better than we do. Yes,

steven: exactly. Yes. That’s that’s frightening.

Lance: Right? Yeah. It really is. It really is. And, and you see it. I, I think especially nowadays, uh, in the social media world and in the world of, of online, you see it every day. You see people weaponize scripture against situations or against people.

People they don’t even know. And it, it, it, it, it really is prolific.

steven: I, I would add Lance, sometimes we, we weaponize scripture against ourselves.

Lance: Mm,

steven: we, we read a passage and, and, you know, innocently, but we read a passage that just seems to condemn us. And, and we take that at face value, um, and feel tremendous shame illegitimately because we’ve, we think a text is saying something that God was not saying.

Mm-hmm. So there are multiple ways that scripture can. Be harmful.

Lance: And, and that’s in the, in the subtile of your book. Um, I just wanna read it again. Scripture’s used as poison or medicine for abuse survivors. Man. So often, especially I know in the work that we’ve been doing in here, the Royce report, uh, getting upfront to so many stories and, and survivor stories almost inevitably.

Every one of these stories are filled with testimonies of this very thing happening to survivors. Every time, I would say a hundred percent of the time it happens.

steven: That’s our experience. Yeah. So sad. Yeah. So this book was therapeutic in a sense for me, having several decades of obscene people that I love, I deeply care about.

Be so damaged through the misuse of scripture. It, it let me take the training God’s entrusted to me. Things I’ve learned over decades and, and respond, uh, to misuses that, that I, I’m really thankful that God gave me this opportunity.

Lance: What would you say are a few of the most frequent? Scriptures that you hear, that you’re just like over and over, you hear misuse.

What, what are some of, what are some of the go-to misuse scriptures, uh, against survivors?

steven: I give an example in the book. Years ago we lived in Phoenix at the time. Uh, a friend who was on the city council ask if I would, she arranged a meeting for me to meet with all the major domestic violence shelters.

12, 13, uh, the, the directors. A few of them were faith-based, most were not. So these were main, and they were all women. Um, most of the women had degrees in social work or counseling. And so it wasn’t a religious crowd other than just a few that were faith-based. So I gave a half an hour presentation on many of the soul, our resources for, uh, domestic violence survivors and.

I could just feel the temperature of the room, you know, as a speaker you can, you can just mm-hmm. Feel the energy. And I could see that there were some women who couldn’t wait to ask me questions.

Lance: Mm-hmm.

steven: So when I, you know, gave my little presentation and I gave ’em a chance, this one woman was about to burst, she just jumped up and said, what does many of the soul believe about the husband?

The wife had to submit and everything. And I was somewhat taken back because, you know, I expect Bible questions from my seminary students, but not from a room full of, for the most part, secular social workers. Mm-hmm. It’s like she’s, she’s quoting scripture and every woman in the room was tracking and were shaking their heads like, yeah.

What do you say about that Bible verse? Well, that would be one of the. Perhaps the most frequently weaponized versus close behind would be the husbands ahead of the wife.

Lance: Mm-hmm.

steven: Closely related. Um, God hates divorce. Oh my goodness. How many times, uh, that is used particularly against women who were simply trying to protect themselves from destruction.

Lance: Yeah. Literally trying to survive, literally trying to protect their children,

steven: literally.

Lance: Whatever.

steven: Yeah. Don’t touch God’s anointed. That’s another one. That’s, that’s the, I was

Lance: wondering if that one was gonna pop up, that had

steven: to pop

Lance: up. Oh yeah. That,

steven: that’s the get outta jail free card for abusers.

Lance: Si.

steven: Uh,

Lance: yeah,

steven: I think those, those four would probably be the most frequent.

I addressed several dozen, uh, of the most common tag, turn the other cheek, um, et cetera.

Lance: You really unpack these in, in the book. Um, so, um, for a lot of people, the Bible, you know, especially when they first come into the faith or start walking with the Lord or introduced to the Bible, the Bible once was a place of refuge and then it became.

A source of actually fear. What, so what, what does it do to a person when that shift happens?

steven: Man, well, I would just start by validating how damaging that is. A celesta spent 20 years as a trauma clinician, had her own clinic, um, trained others. So she saw hundreds, I I’m sure thousands of people over those 20 years.

And she, and, and of all kinds of trauma. Um, and she has often said that from her experience, the most damaging kind of trauma or of abuse, you know, there’s physical, sexual neglect, spiritual, verbal, et cetera, the most damaging is spiritual from mm-hmm. All of those years because it. It cuts us off from the most essential resources that are needed for healing.

And, and that’s why I think Satan so strategizes to corrupt scripture against survivors. Because if he can do that, then where do they go know that you, you distrust God because, well, God said this and, and this has hurt me. Um

Lance: mm-hmm.

steven: So it, uh, and it’s damaging.

Lance: Uh, there’s so much weight and pressure that comes when people leverage those verses like that because the person that’s being used against has a desire to obey God.

And to honor God. Exactly, exactly. And not to offend a God. So that’s a lot of pressure, right? That’s being used when people leverage those scriptures. Right. It’s a vile, it’s a vile thing.

steven: Satan really delights in attacking the best of who people are, uh, be it a child’s innocence. Um, and, and adult, as you say, desire to honor God that gets leveraged against them.

Um, yeah, and it’s, and abusers are cunning. I mean, that’s one of the primary characteristics, traits of, of abusers, of all kinds. Uh, they tend to be very cunning and so that will. They will take advantage of the goodwill, um, of this vulnerable person, including their desire to honor God.

Lance: That’s really exactly what Satan did in the temptations against Jesus.

I mean, that’s exactly what he was trying to do. Uh, you know, particularly when he was using the word of God against Jesus and trying to trip him up or, you know, um, and, you know, and, and, uh, it was what a lot of people forget about those temptations. Those were legitimate temptations. Okay. So it’s, it, they, they literally were a temptation to the human part of Jesus and Right.

Just, you know, it’s like if you, if you, if you try to tempt me, Steve, with a fresh tomato right now. I hate tomatoes. That is, no, that’s not going far. Uh, forget it. Now you lay out, uh, some Texas barbecue in front of me. I I’m gonna go down probably, you know, game on. ’cause it’s a legitimate, it’s a game over.

It’s a legitimate temptation. But, so those were really temptations to Jesus. And a part of it was Jesus had this heart to, to, to honor God. And I, I think that that’s one of the, uh, insidious parts. Uh, weaponizing scripture against people. Is there a difference between, um, misuse and weaponization of scripture?

Or is that too fine of a distinction, uh, between misuse and weaponization of scripture?

steven: There’s a continuum here of scripture being used in ways God didn’t intend. And, and strain further from the truth. Motive enters in. I, I’m trained as a biblical ethicist and motive is a primary factor biblically in the morality of our behavior or, or even how wrong our behavior is.

Not all sin is the same, it’s all wrong, but some sin is far more destructive and gets worse consequences. So

Lance: sure.

steven: Um, motive is a real factor. So you can. Innocently misinterpret scripture in ways that that could, I mean, if it’s misinterpreted, still be harmful, but that’s not in the same ballpark as someone who is maliciously distorting scripture for their own, uh, selfish or destructive purposes.

Right. You know, there’s a malevolence and in intent in that. That, um, that God factors in, in his response.

Lance: One of one, one of the words that you use is the word, uh, decontaminate, which is really strong language. Uh, what, what are those things that, that, that, that survivors really have to unlearn before that healing can start?

steven: When we have any kind of painful experience, it, it can cause a negative, completely logical, negative reaction. Y you get, uh, food poisoning. You don’t want to eat seafood again.

julio: Si.

steven: Right. So even looking at it may, may cause you to back off that. Well, if you have a, an experience that tells you God is not trustworthy because he wasn’t there or worse yet, this scripture passage that comes from God.

’cause God’s the author. Look what it did to me then that can make God seem cruel. Mm-hmm. Apathetic at best and cruel at worst. So I, early in the book, I give a, explain just some, some basic doctrine of scripture and I frame my understanding of scripture around the idea that scripture is God’s love letter.

Sometimes guys don’t like that kinda language and well, so be it. Wanted, I’m down for it. If you wanna do

a,

Lance: I I’m, I’m a romantic, so I’m, I’m

steven: good then, then you’re, yeah. You’re, you’re in touch with that, that side. As I tell my students, let’s do a pushup contest after class. I may be a lot older than you, but I still do pushups.

Lance: Don’t mess with old manpower. Don’t

steven: exactly. Don’t mess with

Lance: old man strength.

steven: Um, but I really, I really believe. That, that is an accurate description of scripture, that the, in academics, we call it the meta-narrative, but the mm-hmm. Overarching theme of scripture from Genesis to Revelation is restoration.

Divine restoration.

Lance: Mmm.

steven: Restoring what was broken. Michael Ghe has done some wonderful work on just kind of, and, and there are now others tracing that big arc of scripture. Mm-hmm. Uh, Shalom was violated. It was shattered in the Garden of Eden. But our God is a loving God who desires to bless and restore, to heal and redeem.

And that’s the theme of scripture. So I don’t think it’s an exaggeration at all to say Scripture is God’s love letter to us. His creation. He wants to restore.

Lance: I, I couldn’t agree with you anymore.

steven: Abuse can cause all that to, to, to be thrown into doubt and suspicion, but I think that’s the beginning place, uh, is to rediscover who God is.

Um, he’s, he’s not this angry, vengeful God who can’t wait to, to let us have it. And that’s, that’s often the picture that abuse survivors get. Yeah. Um, there’s a lot of toxic shame that, that surrounds abuse. So I think that’s a starting point. And then secondly, out of that, um, abuse survivors who’ve had scripture misused, uh, need to decontaminate the God’s word.

Um, I mean, God and his word obviously are overlapping that his word is, it comes from him and it speaks of him. But, but to rediscover what? Scripture is really about, especially some of the specific texts that were misused, that were so harmful.

Lance: Well, I, I think I, I love what you’re saying there about the heart of God, um, is, you know, and, and it’s been said that Jesus doesn’t look like God.

God looks like Jesus. That Jesus really is the image. He is. He is the epitome. He, he shows us the heart of God. So how does Jesus’s posture toward the vulnerable, how should that correct a lot of this power centered readings that people have absorbed?

steven: Yeah. That is a fantastic setup Question. Comes right out of John one that, that.

Jesus has revealed, uh mm-hmm. Explained, we get our word, ex of Jesus. From the verb there, he’s unpacked who God is. Yes. And Jesus is divine, but he shows us the Father. So you’re absolutely right that go to Jesus. And it’s the opposite picture that a lot of us would maybe intuitively have, particularly if we grew up in that conservative church.

Um, a as I did, and there’s so much, and I’m still, I’m very involved in my church, I believe in the church, but

Lance: mm-hmm.

steven: For some of us, it was a mixed bag. And, um, we saw God, you know, in, in harsh terms, I Jesus harshest criticisms, hands down were for the spiritual leaders of his day because they were taken advantage of the vulnerable.

Lance: Si.

steven: Matthew, Matthew 23 is just unbelievably specific, uh, in Jesus’ condemnation. Mm-hmm. Of the spiritual leaders. They accused him of being soft on sin, if you will, because it wasn’t the religious elites that flocked to Jesus. Well, they only came because they wanted to condemn him. But it was the outcast, it was the tax collectors, the sinners, uh, et cetera.

Uh, the sinful, the so-called sinful people on the margins. They, I mean, the big, one of the big criticisms was that Jesus was a friend of sinners. Yes, yes. He, he wore that as a ba, you know, a, a mantle of, of virtue.

Lance: Uh, I, I felt, I, I’ve felt for years, and I’ve said, I’ve said this when I’ve spoken to groups of pastors, is how, how many of you could be accused of being a friend of a sinner or a friend of sinners?

You know? Do you have any that are your friends? Um, and I, I had a, I had a, uh, one of my profs, um, and he’s, he’s passed away now. Um, Ray Anderson at Fuller Seminary. Yeah. I loved Ray and, and you. Probably familiar with him. Mm-hmm. But one of the things that Ray would say was that you have to interpret scripture through the character of Jesus.

If you don’t interpret it through the character of Jesus, you’re gonna, you’re gonna get off every time. Especially when it comes to verses like we’re talking about. I think they really have to be gone through well. What, what did, would, would this word incarnate through Jesus say? Is it saying what I’m feeling like it’s saying, or the way it’s been used or weaponized, or if I do interpret it through the incarnation of Jesus?

A lot of these ways people weaponize scripture. There’s absolutely no way it could be used at no way, way, way. When you could have way, you can’t even imagine Jesus using it that way.

steven: Derecha.

Lance: Some of the, the, the deepest harm, um. Uh, doesn’t come just directly from abusers, but from those that stand beside the abusers, um,

steven: collaborators.

Lance: So, yeah. What does scripture say to them

steven: that is so relevant today, and the Roys report has done an amazing job. And that’s why I’m proud to do this podcast and I’m a personal supporter of the Roy’s report. ’cause I, I believe in what’s being done. It’s sad that it needs to be done. But

Lance: yeah,

steven: there has been just, I mean, there, I don’t even have adequate words for the immorality of the way whole denominations, churches, et cetera, have conspired against survivors.

Hmm. So you’re absolutely right, Lance. It’s not just the abusers that cause so much pain, but actually in some context, those that collaborate with the abusers cause more pain because you, you know, evil people do, do evil. Like no surprise there, but you expect others that didn’t, that aren’t abusers to to, to protect.

And then when they don’t, they’re silent or worse yet they defend the abuser well that, that becomes abusive in its own right. But that’s every bit as damaging as or can be as the abuse itself. Yeah, and I’ll give you just one biblical example, and I think this is perhaps the most powerful

julio: Mmm.

steven: Um, for the countless scenarios.

I, I mean, I run across it continually. I did again yesterday. With a former student, I hear this all the time, um, this overlooking of abuse and what does God think about it? Think of Eli Book of one. Samuel Eli was an elderly priest. Uh, by all accounts he was not abusive. Uh, he was a good man in most ways.

He had two sons. That were very corrupt. Uh, they were specifically abusive, uh mm-hmm sexually to women in the, I mean, this is the ultimate spiritual abuse. They were taking sexual advantage of women who came into the tabernacle. Uh, they were also physically abusive with, uh, with the beat offered to idols.

I won’t go into all the details, but they were abusers and they were hardhearted evil doers. Well, Eli. Heard, heard that that was going on, and he confronted them and said, it’s, I think it’s in chapter two. Uh, what is this bad report? I hear my sons. So he, he didn’t excuse it, but he didn’t stop it.

Lance: Mm.

steven: He didn’t, he, he, so his was a, a passive, not an active, but a passive collaboration.

Lance: Si.

steven: But two chapters later, what’s God’s response? He struck Eli dead for not stopping his sons. He should have removed them from being priests in the temple.

Lance: Si.

steven: So if passive collaboration gets such a harsh is the best word, response from God of judgment, how much more so active collaboration? Um, God, God is a God of justice and mercy, and he hates, hates it when abusers are allowed to go scot free and continue to perpetuate their evil doing

Lance: continue.

steven: Si.

Lance: Yeah, I mean, that’s just a phenomenal example. I mean that, that, that example with Eli and his sons, I mean, that sounds like. It sounds like a Roy’s report, you know? Doesn’t it?

steven: Doesn’t

Lance: it ’cause it really, it really, you just change the dates and, and it’s just applicable. Yeah. It’s just, it’s, it’s the story we hear way too often, you know, sometimes weekly or monthly, you know, we’re hearing stories that that’s it.

That’s, that’s the thing that happens.

steven: But in 3000 plus years of human history, guess what? The heart hasn’t changed.

Lance: Boy,

steven: abuse is still being covered. In religious communities.

Lance: Yeah. Ab absolutely. Have you seen Steve, have you seen, um, survivors come back to scripture, uh, with a sense of joy or curiosity again?

And, and if so, what made, what made that possible?

steven: Absolutely. It’s usually a process, you know, regaining trust when trust has been shattered is almost always a process. So it’s, it’s a little here and it’s a little there. I, I do think, and I wanna encourage all of our listeners that we as friends and caregivers can play an enormous role here in the early stages of healing from abuse.

Uh, and Celeste would often talk about this as a therapist. Um, and I’ve seen this just in pastoral ministry in the early stages of working with trauma survivors. Often they’re just completely flat emotionally, and your emotion helps unthaw them. You know, they, they can talk about what happened to them, like they’re reading the newspaper.

It just, they, they, they’re shut down and, but you hear it and there are tears in your eyes, you know, healthy response. There’s a sense of, yeah. Appropriate righteous indignation and anger at what was done to them. And so that helps them start to come alive. Similarly, that are legitimate. None of, I’m not talking that well, you’re supposed to say the right thing ’cause you’re Christian stuff and the church does a lot of that.

It’s inauthentic. I’m talking about genuine faith that I have because I am feeding on God’s word. I am growing in my intimacy with Jesus. And I can encourage you with things that God is teaching me from his word. Again, not in a, I, I’ve cut the process short and I’m just telling you what I think I’m supposed to say, but I have wrestled with scripture.

I’ve wrestled with the hard things. I lament over the brokenness of the world and I just like, uh, Jacob with the, I love that image and genesis of. Jacob wrestling with the angel of the Lord all night long. You know, bless me. I’m not gonna let go of you until you bless me. Yeah, I think that is a magnificent metaphor of what God wants us to do with him, and as it relates to lamento over the suffering of the world and things that have happened, we just keep coming, like the Psalm is back and back.

So as we do that, God meets us and we grow gradually in our trust of God and his word. And then as a caregiver, I’m able to pass on some of those lessons, uh, to someone else who’s in the early stages of, of healing and growth and, and my faith and the insights God’s given me and, and ways scripture has ministered to me out of my pain then can, can be a source of renewed confidence and, and help for this other.

A person who’s just not as far along in the process of healing.

julio: Hi, this is Julie Roys. I wanna pause here to mention that we’re giving away Steve’s book to Harm or to Heal to anyone who gives $50 or more to the Roys report this month. As we often say, we don’t have advertisers or grants funding us. We simply have you.

The people who care about exposing abuse in the church and supporting survivors. So if you believe in our mission, please help us out by going to Julie Roy’s spelled ROY s.com/donate and give your tax deductible gift. That’s julie roys.com/donate. Now back to Lance and Steve,

Lance: if a pastor is listening to this.

And maybe even feeling a little exposed right now. Um, what would repentance look like? Not, I’m not talking about theatrically, but, but faithfully. What would that, what would be the first steps?

steven: Re repentance for realizing that they’ve misused scripture?

Lance: Si.

steven: I I, I’ll give it in general terms ’cause I’ve had to do it.

Well, I mean, if we’re honest, we’ve all had to do it. But especially as, you know, spiritual leader who’s,

Lance: but, but sometimes this becomes, this becomes kind of a culture in a church and it becomes a, uh, it, it becomes just the, the first thing you reach for. And if there’s pastors that are watching this and are going, Hey, I, I realize this has become a pattern in me.

Um, what’s, what’s the first steps towards repenting and turning around from that, would you say? I, I’d tell ’em to read your book. First off, I, you can’t, you probably not gonna say that, but I’ll say it, but, and seriously,

steven: and that’s gonna sound maybe too basic, but we need to do business with God almighty.

Scripture is God’s love letter and God is just incalculably loving and gracious, but he is also holy and righteous. He expects much of spiritual leaders much, uh, for scripture says, James, not, not many of you should desire to be teachers. There’s a greater judgment, there’s a greater accountability. So the point at which we’re we realize that we have misused scripture and hurt people doing it, that we need to do some serious.

Yeah. Confession and reflection before God, uh, and, and not short shrift that process. Yeah. That, that, that, that need, we need to really take some time and search our hearts deeply and ask God to show us. Typically, I, I find repentances are an unfolding process that takes some time to really understand the depth.

If and, and not that we’ll ever fully understand the depth of what we’ve done, but um, we don’t wanna short shrift this.

Lance: Well, I love that you’re saying that, Steve, because a lot of times people think repentance is, okay, well, I’m gonna go in the morning, I’m gonna kneel before the couch, I’m gonna pray and.

Get up and go on, you know, and, and even if I’m, if I’m serious about it, but we both know, uh, that word metanoia, which means repentance. It’s, it’s a shift of thinking.

steven: ¿Derecha?

Lance: That means to me, I think that that means, in some cases repentance is you’re stressing. It’s, it’s a process. It to change my thinking means.

I need to rethink some things. So I need to do a lot of relearning.

steven: Derecha.

Lance: So I can think the right thing. Right, exactly. Yeah. I love that you’re stressing this isn’t just a quick repent and cry and get up and go about your day.

steven: Yeah. Especially for the leader or any kind of abuser.

Lance: Si.

steven: I, I mean, and I’m sure you would agree, Lance, there there is a biblical sense where it’s First John, if we confess our sins.

He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleans us of all unrighteousness. What a magnificent promise. So I I will, and, and I know you wouldn’t want our listeners to, to feel like, well, you, you can’t just go to God and, and be forgiven. Um, and you have to go through an arduous process to be forgiven.

That’s not what we’re saying.

Lance: No,

steven: but this, this is context specific

Lance: Si.

steven: For the spiritual leader. For whom more is expected of God. There’s a greater accountability. As spiritual leaders, we, we should have a deeper knowledge of scripture or, or we shouldn’t be up in the pulpit or, you know, teaching God’s word.

God expects more. And in that context, if we’ve been misusing our platform, our position in harmful ways, then that would suggest there’s a deeper level of. Twisting and complicated wrong thoughts that that need to be ferreted out, that’s gonna take probably some time. Yeah. So, amen. It starts with God. Um, and real straightforward, apologies to those we’ve hurt.

I, I’ve, I’ve gone back to a good number of abuse survivors that I, in my early years, very innocently. Um, it was unintentional, but I, I missed you, some scriptures against them and I got it wrong, and that later I was really convicted of that and I went back and said, I am sorry. The advice I gave you, I, I, I didn’t know what I was talking about.

I, I misuse scripture against you and I’m sure that hurt you. And I, I just want you to know, I’m really sorry.

Lance: Yeah, well, I totally identify. I was a pastor for 20 years and man, there, and, and it’s interesting to hear you say it because I’ve gone back to people too, you know, and sometimes it was things that, that it, it, it, it didn’t even seem like it was some big thing, but I knew that I had, you know, that I’d missed it, you know, and came back and came to an understanding, was able to go back and, you know, to folks and say exactly what you just said and, um.

I, I think that’s warranted. I think that we should do that. But I, and, and, and that’s part of growing. I mean, and so many pa I mean, I was, I was 30 years old when I passed, when I planted a church, uh, I wasn’t even shaving, you know? So I would hope that I would evolve in some thinking and, and I think that we all look back, you even look back five years ago and go, absolutely.

Oh, there’s some things I, I, I look at it different now. I think I see it different.

steven: That should be a lifelong process. And I have found, when I’ve done that, people with very, very few exceptions were extremely gracious in their response.

Lance: Si absolutamente.

steven: Now we need to, we need to do what’s right because it’s right regardless of the response.

But I, it can be very healing when, you know, when you get it wrong, you get it wrong and you can’t, in one sense, what’s done is done, but. Uh, it is an opportunity, it’s part of our repentance to go back and apologize. So it’s, yeah, it’s the right thing for us to do because it’s the right thing for us to do, but it also is a chance to bless them with a different interpretation that, that then could help.

Maybe they’re still holding on to toxic shame because of a wrong interpretation. Um. Uh, there’s a lot of benefits for us and that other person when we do that. The other thing I would add, Lance, to, uh, your, your excellent question of, you know, for our pastors when they realize, and that’s just about all of us, that we’ve misused scriptures at times and that would be continue to cultivate a, a humble heart Boy scripture has a lot to say about humility.

And we are not in a culture. Mm. That values humility. You, you get kicked in the teeth for being humble. Um, yeah. You know, victory goes to the one that grabs it. It’s, it’s about power and the loudest voice in the room wins. Right. That’s true. True in our absolutely. Politics. Horrifically so in our politics, but not just politics, even, uh, church life.

Um, oh yeah.

Lance: Si,

steven: so we don’t have a lot of models for humility, but I can think of a really good one that you reminded us really good one of earlier, the God of the universe, the creator. Gentle, humble, meek Jesus. Yeah. So a quick illustration, uh, in my second pastorate, I was, you know, I’d finished my PhD and I was teaching the seminary, and of course, I.

I, I knew everything, right.

Lance: Oh,

steven: so I

Lance: did, I had all my eschatology down. I had it all figured out.

steven: Yeah. Well, I had far more education than I did life experience. Mm-hmm. And I had done a, I preached a series, uh, we did as a team. I’d done several sermons on family life, and I thought I’d done a fantastic job.

And it was one of those Monday morning letters in your mailbox, uh, that changed my life.

Lance: Mm.

steven: This dear courageous young woman, let me have it with both barrels. And she said, you know, I’ve sat through several weeks now of admonitions on family life and you’ve told us that we’re honor our parents. And she goes through the list of things we’d said.

And she wasn’t at all inappropriate, but she basically said, you, you’re clueless. You have no idea the kind of family some of us grew up in. Mm-hmm. And then she proceeded to describe being beaten her entire childhood and incident after incident. And um, and she said, before you condemn us with scripture that.

It has nothing to do with our kind of families. Please consider your flock.

julio: Mm.

steven: And this was 25 years ago, so I’m paraphrasing, but I was cut to the quick

julio: Mm.

steven: Like how could I have been so naive and so hurtful? ’cause I just, yeah. So you get the idea. Um, that changed my life. I am so grateful. Wow. That Kathy had the courage to write that kind of honest letter and you know, I could have blown it off.

Who is she? Sure. I got the PhD. Right? Right. You know, I’m your pastor. Who are you? And I’m not, certainly not gonna say I never responded in sinful pride. I have, of course, I, I’m ashamed of it. But that was not one of those occasions. And the Lord, really, that was a gift to me. That was a gift to me. And it’s.

I think God used it to really just help me grow in, in humility and a recognition that I don’t care how much you’ve studied, I don’t care how much you, I mean God cares. But even if you have a really good motive, that doesn’t mean you don’t get it wrong. ’cause you’re fallible, you’re human. Yeah. And never ever lose sight of your, your finiteness and.

Col, keep cultivating a sense of humility and listen to your sheep. So that has really helped me.

Lance: That’s a very helpful word to Steve for, for pastors and, and leaders. And you know, as you’re talking about that. Humility. I’m, I’m, I just kept hearing. Proverbs 4 23 Above all things guard your heart for out of it flow the well springs of life.

Um, guard your heart and, and Jesus is the model of that you always think about. When Jesus comes in on his, his, his, his, his passion week and his triumphal entry. He doesn’t come in on a white stallion at that point? No. He comes in on a baby donkey.

steven: On a donkey.

Lance: There couldn’t be anything more foolish looking than a grown man.

Not just on a donkey, but on the fold of a, on a baby donkey.

steven: Si. Si.

Lance: Your feet are gonna be dragging, you know? Man, that was such a statement.

steven: Right. Right.

Lance: Um, Jesus

steven: speaks to us. That’s so beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. He’s a beautiful

Lance: shepherd.

steven: And, and I would just add here to even underscore that I have learned so much, and I put this in the introduction to the book, I am so grateful to the abuse survivors, the countless Kathys over the years

Lance: mm-hmm.

steven: That have blessed me with their insights. Some on occasion have had the courage to confront me. Uh, as she did. Um, but I’ve just, I’ve learned so much. I didn’t grow up in an abusive family, uh, by God’s grace. So there’s a whole lot that I

Lance: yeah.

steven: Didn’t understand because of those blessings and that that’s what led me to make assumptions that were illegitimate.

Um, but oh, abuse survivors have so much to teach us.

Lance: Mm.

steven: And, and we need to be humble enough as Christian leaders to listen. And even to be proactive, uh, in asking good questions. Yeah.

Lance: Well, amen. Well, Stephen, I, I so appreciate your visit with us. And, and I, this is, this, I know this is gonna be a gift to so many people that are listening or, or, or watching, uh, this episode, but, uh, I really do wanna encourage folks to, um, to, to get the book.

Um, it’s, it’s it, you know, if, if you’ve been blessed by this conversation, you’re gonna be blessed even so much more by picking up to heal. Or to harm. It’s a gift of the body. So Steven, thank you for the conversation and thank you for the book, my brother.

steven: My pleasure. My pleasure.

julio: Thanks for listening to the Roy’s report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Royce, and just a reminder that we’re giving away Steve’s book to anyone who gives $50 or more to the Royce report this month. As I mentioned earlier, we don’t have advertisers or grants funding us.

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