Woman Alleges VP at Truett McConnell U Abused Her While President Provided Cover

ALTAVOCES
JULIE ROYS, HAYLE SWINSON, MARCIA G. SHEIN 

Note: This is a rough transcript and may contain some misspellings.

[00:00:00] julio: Well, joining me now is Hayle Swinson, an alleged sex abuse victim of Bradley Reynolds, who was a former Vice President of Student Services at Truett McConnell University. Haley also was a soccer player there at Truett McConnell or TMU, uh, and she is the chief whistleblower in our article on TMU. So, Haley, welcome and thank you so much for joining me.

[00:00:25] Hayle Swinson: Thank you. Thank you for, uh, being, just being willing, uh, to help expose the truth.

[00:00:31] julio: Yeah. Well, I thank you because you’re really, and, and I say this a lot, um, but victims are often the ones that have to shoulder. The brunt of having these stories come to light, and it’s a very difficult position to be in, and yet you have stepped up to do it.

[00:00:48] And I am just so grateful for that. Um, but I am curious, I mean, it’s been about a decade since a lot of the events, um, that you described to us happened. Why now are you coming forward?

[00:01:05] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. Um, that’s a great question. I, I really feel like it’s to be faithful, uh, to what God has called me to do, to expose the darkness and to stand up so that no one else at this university can experience anything that I had to experience.

[00:01:21] And it, Julie, I just really believe that no change can come until stories like this are heard.

[00:01:28] julio: Yeah. And that’s very true. And often when these stories are told, um, that is when we often hear from more victims because very rarely is there one victim. Of a sexual predator. There often are many, and often, uh, feeling like it was their fault that it occurred instead of the blame being put where it should be, uh, which was on a predator at the time that this occurred.

[00:01:52] Um, Bradley Reynolds was a pastor in addition to being a vice president of True McConnell, which is a, a Christian school. Um, so he’d be the least likely person you would think to for something like this to happen. And what was the age differential between you and Bradley Reynolds?

[00:02:12] Hayle Swinson: Yeah, Ms. Marshall, you can speak more into if your memory exactly.

[00:02:15] Um, but I know it’s like roughly 20 years.

[00:02:18] julio: 20 years. So you were 21 at the time, or even 20. Yeah.

[00:02:25] Hayle Swinson: Um, I went to college as a 17-year-old, and so everything began roughly, I met him in 2009, which would put me 18 years old, uh, when I met him.

[00:02:36] julio: Wow. Wow. Well, you met him in the fall of 2009, uh, when you were a sophomore at TMU, a soccer player.

[00:02:44] You were there on scholarship. Um, and my understanding is that right before that fall of 2009, you had undergone sort of a spiritual transformation. Would you talk about that and kind of your spiritual state coming into that sophomore year of 2009?

[00:03:06] Hayle Swinson: Yeah, the summer before, uh, my sophomore year is when I would say I gave my life to the Lord and realized that I was a sinner and I needed a savior, that Jesus died on the cross to save me.

[00:03:16] And so that happened, but I had no clue what that meant. And so I would consider myself and this. Time in my life, a, a baby believer, a new believer, but with no context, no understanding of what that meant, aside from a, just a decision to receive Christ as my savior, had no clue to how to follow Jesus, how to read the Bible or anything like that.

[00:03:37] Mmm.

[00:03:37] julio: So you come in really wanting to grow a brand new believer, and how did you meet Bradley Reynolds and his family?

[00:03:48] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. Um, I really feel like their, their family and particularly him, he got to know us. Um, I, I know that sounds interesting, but even as when they came on campus, I remember as a soccer team, like he knew all of our names.

[00:04:05] Before we met him, when we met him, he called us by name, which at that moment you’re like, okay, wow. Uh, and so I really feel like from the get go, he adopted the women’s soccer team and was just very much more interested in that program and got to know us. Um, but personally, uh, I, I got to to know their family, um, through, they would invite all the team over to have like a team bible study.

[00:04:31] Um, and with that, they would just say, my house is open if anybody wants to come and wash clothes. Our university was a small, very small school, and so it just was a home away from home for a lot of people. And they could come play with their kids, eat a Homecooked meal and, and just be there. And so I took them up on the offer.

[00:04:50] julio: Yeah. And I can remember being in college. I went to college about 12 hours from my home. And so something like that, like getting to be in a home and feeling in that familiar environment, especially if you’re homesick a little bit, that can be really huge. Getting to do laundry when you don’t have to do it’s coin operated back in those days, as I recall in the dorms, um, at least where I went to school, uh, but most places as well.

[00:05:13] Um, so yeah, I mean that, that seems like a, a wonderful thing and especially the small Christian school, which I went to a small Christian school too. Um, that’s not all that uncommon yet. At the same time, I know when I was thinking about this story, I was like, why didn’t he adopt the men’s soccer team?

[00:05:32] Like did it seem odd at all? Like why the women’s soccer team, it’s not like he was a soccer coach or something, he was the VP of student services. Right. Why did he take, what was kind of the pretense for him taking an interest, especially in the women’s soccer team?

[00:05:49] Hayle Swinson: Uh, to be honest, I don’t know. Um, I think all I know is he just was more interested in the women’s soccer team.

[00:05:58] Uh, and so you would see him, um, at, at the different sporting events. It wasn’t like he only attended women’s soccer. You would see him everywhere. But there, everyone would tell you he had a, a keen interest for the women’s soccer team.

[00:06:10] julio: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s probably seemed altruistic at first, although, um, when I think people hear the rest of the story, it’s not gonna seem quite so altruistic.

[00:06:20] Um, at some point during, I think it was either your junior or senior year, he made an offer to you to disciple you or mentor you, um, and you took him up on it. Uh, talk about why you did that, kind of what you were hoping to get out of that and kind of what, how you felt at the time that he’s saying, Hey, you know, here, this vice president of the university saying.

[00:06:47] Singling you out and, and saying he wants to disciple you?

[00:06:52] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. Uh, to be honest with Julie, um, at this moment I had just gotten baptized and I wanted to know Jesus. And I would tell you I was pretty zealous for the things of the world and ran pretty hard after that. But, uh, when there was a moment when, when it clicked and I was like, I wanna live my life for Jesus.

[00:07:13] I don’t really know much about you. I wanna live for you. And I got baptized, and it was after that, uh, that, uh, that this question was posed. Um, and so my answer is, I just wanted to know Jesus. He was a local pastor, a vice president, someone I’ve trusted for years at this moment. And everyone, even on campus would consider him one of the most godly men.

[00:07:35] And that’s what I saw in their family. Um, and then that’s what I saw in him. And so,

[00:07:40] julio: yeah. Mm. And I have said in all of the reporting that I’ve done with sex abuse victims or spiritual abuse victims, the number one quality of those people is earnestness or sincerity. And it’s almost like the predator can smell it a, a mile away, that sincerity, which makes it that much more egregious, that someone would pick someone.

[00:08:13] Who is so wanting to grow spiritually and would use that as a pretext to prey on them. And maybe because that person seems so godly, seems so altruistic, some things happen that might raise red flags, you know, in a normal situation. But doesn’t, in this situation, my understanding is you actually met with him for bible studies alone in the basement of his house.

[00:08:40] Is that right? That’s right, yes ma’am. And what were those bible studies like at least at first?

[00:08:49] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. Um, even before I answered that, just for context, uh, like I, I would go to their house with Julie and have dinner and then their kids and his wife would watch me walk down the stairs. Knowing that we’re doing Bible study.

[00:09:08] I remember him telling his kids, Hey, we’re having bible study. Like, don’t, don’t interrupt. And so they knew not to come downstairs. And so we’d go and, uh, where they were like, is they had a couch and I was sitting on the couch, and this is how this began. I was sitting on the couch and then, um, probably like seven feet away, he wheeled in like a whiteboard.

[00:09:29] And it, that’s how it began, uh, with him lit, literally just writing, uh, the Old Testament, new Testament, different things on the whiteboard. Sometimes he would even give me like a handout, kind of like a lecture is how it began. Huh.

[00:09:44] julio: That’s interesting that it was so formal in nature and probably felt like extremely safe in, in that sort of context.

[00:09:51] Yeah. But things progressed and, and I’m getting from your timeline, it, it was several months or maybe even longer than that, that. It was just meeting in the basement, him sort of lecturing to you, and then maybe having a prayer time afterwards. How did it progress to physical touch?

[00:10:16] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. Um, my brain doesn’t remember the time on initially of how many months, but he would teach me something and then he would come sit on the couch with me and, and it, that part began with, Hey, can I hold your hand as we pray?

[00:10:32] And so all I know is Julie is had moved from him saying, can I hold your hand and pray to like, now that we’re praying that his hand will just move. Now he’s rubbing my back and then his hand would progress and move or he is touching my breast. Or he what times where he put his hand on my leg and then, uh, his hand would move.

[00:10:59] Into my shorts. And so I don’t know the timeline, but the progression of all of this was laced with, this is God’s will for you. And I think that is about to be uncovered as you keep, uh, going. And all the emails that he was sent sending me and even just face to face would tell me, um, this is God’s will, but you have to trust me.

[00:11:24] And so, uh, yeah, I think, I think for me it was truly just for you to know. Um, I, I I just would shut down and I just would go like inward and just really want to disappear.

[00:11:45] But in, in those moments, uh, where someone’s telling you, this is God’s will God, and you’re all you wanna do is know God, it felt like. In order to know God, I had to obey him, follow him, but it didn’t feel like this is what a loving and God would do.

[00:12:06] Marcia Shein: Take a deep breath.

[00:12:08] julio: Take a deep breath.

[00:12:14] Haley, I’m so sorry. What? And I can tell this is, is so hard to recount.

[00:12:29] Hayle Swinson: Um,

[00:12:33] something that would happen Mr. K to tell you. Um, each time that he did do something to me, um, he would say, I’m looking at it ’cause I have a quote. Um, next time this won’t happen, we will just read the Bible. We, we,

[00:12:53] and so. I would show back up and, uh, for months we would just read the Bible. Hmm. And then something would happen again. Wow.

[00:13:10] julio: And during this time, I, I mean, I, even now, after a decade, it’s clearly just so traumatic for you at the time. This must have been unbelievably confusing for you. I mean, you, you know, on one hand this must be wrong, and yet you have this man who’s a spiritual mentor to you saying this is God’s will. And, and even let’s talk about some of the ways that he, he justified it too.

[00:13:48] He used all sorts of rationalizations. One of them. Which is very, very similar to Mike Bickell at the International House of Prayer, the founder of the International House of Prayer. We know that, that he used this, uh, he would say it was prophetic, that he had heard a prophecy from God, that his wife was gonna die and that the person he was abusing was going to become.

[00:14:18] Of course, he told this to more than one woman, several women, that this, you would become my wife. You had a similar situation, didn’t you, with, with Bradley Reynolds, if you would talk about what he would say to you.

[00:14:34] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. Um, very early on, I don’t know when, but uh, he would start telling me face to face and in emails, um, that he’s having dreams that his wife would die.

[00:14:48] And in the dreams that his wife will die. Um, he’s basically continues to tell me and that God, uh, it is God’s will though we’re supposed to be together. And that what this is called is a betrothal agreement. That he’s took a vow to the Lord, uh, to protect me. So though I though I don’t understand, God has shown him in a dream, I have to trust him.

[00:15:11] julio: Mm. And you believed that at the time?

[00:15:16] Hayle Swinson: Yeah, I think I did. But it was also so confusing because though I was a baby believer, I never heard anybody say that about marriage. So why is this God’s will for me to be violated is God’s will. Like that was so confusing.

[00:15:31] julio: Hmm. And you’ve shared some of those emails with me, uh, over 350 emails he sent to you over this time period.

[00:15:40] How, how many emails did you send to him, do you think?

[00:15:45] Hayle Swinson: I would have to go back and look. I know it’s under 10. I, I would shoot to say seven, five. Uh, but it’s very, very small amount.

[00:15:53] julio: Wow. So the pursuer in, in this case is quite clear that it was Bradley Reynolds, not you. Um, but he writes, and this is in one dated February 2nd, 2015, that, uh, describing this patrol though, period, it is a time of commitment, which allows some freedoms apparently because there is a commitment or vow to God.

[00:16:16] It differs from even engagement in that In patrol, though one has already made a vow of commitment to God for life to protect and provide, uh, protect and provide period. And as such, one acts out of selfish. One x not out of selfish reasons, but to try and bless the other. In another email dated March 30th, 2015, he writes, the petro is now in a not yet period where a marriage is guaranteed and a commitment is given, but the consummation must wait for another day.

[00:16:50] It is a lot like salvation, which is why Jesus compares this is unbelievable salvation, which is why Jesus compares salvation to a Jewish wedding in John 14. We have a now but not yet with Jesus. I would never have committed to you if I didn’t know what we had is from God. I think you may never have accepted my commitment.

[00:17:11] I agree it is confusing. I know that two of the verses God gave me to give to you before anything between us were first He is doing a new thing and secondly, faith is the evidence of things not seen. I know what he has told me and I will not doubt. If he is playing games with me, then I am evil. But I know he doesn’t play games with hearts.

[00:17:37] I have never in capital lied to you. And then March 21st, 2015, he writes, I know in caps my sweet wife will get to heaven before me, and I know I will need someone to help with my kids. This, this level of, of spiritual manipulation. To be honest, I these emails are some of the most breathtaking emails I’ve ever seen with just incredible manipulation in them.

[00:18:14] But what’s so sick about them is you see this, some of them are very graphic and erotic in nature, and then some are just filled with this spiritual language. Um, did you, as this is going on, I’m, I’m guessing this is a very secret thing, was there anybody that you talked to about what was going on?

[00:18:41] Hayle Swinson: No. Um, truthfully, we didn’t even have a Title IX on our school.

[00:18:48] Uh, there was no protocol in place. And who was I gonna tell that would, believe me, he’s someone on campus that everyone thought was such a godly man, a vice president and a pastor. And so, no ma’am.

[00:19:02] julio: Yeah. Some of these emails again, um,

[00:19:13] and some of them are, are, are actually hard to read out loud because of how graphic they are. Um, but one, he talks about being on the beach and beginning to make love. This is like a dream that he has. And then he says, we began to make love, but I began praying as we started slowly, our spirits were united, spiritually.

[00:19:41] Uh, as you’re, as you were reading these mixing of, I would say holy and profane,

[00:19:53] what did that do to you?

[00:19:57] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. Um, in the moment, I didn’t know what to do with it. Just like I didn’t know what to do with all the emails or the fact that this is God’s will. I didn’t know. I was very confused, very pressured, uh, manipulated it and all. I think now when I look back though, Ms. Julie, you’re like, I was sexually abused and manipulated.

[00:20:19] I was groomed, I was confused, I was targeted. I felt isolated, like. I was alone. I couldn’t tell no why I was lost. It took, and it has taken, and it will take years of my life to unwind every lie that was told to me. And you just think about, like some days you’ve, you’ve seen the emails. Some days I would get three to four emails a day with the narrative playing over.

[00:20:46] My mind is, this is God’s will. You will have to trust me. And I think, um, I, I wrote down some key phrases from the email, if it’s okay. Yeah. It’s just like top 25 repeated key phrases. And this is, this is what it says. This is God’s will. I’ll never harm you. I have never lied to you. I will never leave you astray.

[00:21:12] You have to trust me. God is not the author of confusion. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. So God has said and told me that we are supposed to be together. So you have to have faith. Haley, I want to make you more like Jesus. You will be my wife. This is from God. I prayed and I’m fasted and God continues to confirm it.

[00:21:39] I’m praying that he confirms it to you too. The enemy would love to twist what God is doing. Don’t give him a chance. God is testing your faithfulness. Haley, don’t miss what God is doing. God has given me a special discernment for you. You’re the only one I could trust with this even. Don’t speak to anyone else about this.

[00:22:09] So I could go on, but that’s a narrative that was in my mind through all of this. And so yeah, when I back to your question. How do, how does all of this make me feel in the emails and the graphicness of it? Um, that’s what, this is what was how I was being fed. This is the narrative that was in my mind and very confused.

[00:22:30] Yeah, very

[00:22:31] julio: pressured. And this is classic, classic adult clergy sexual abuse. And I think that the Christian community is just beginning to understand this. And for way too long, these sorts of relationships have been, have been characterized as affairs. There’s, there’s no equal playing field here. No. We have a differential of power where there’s 20 years difference and his theological education is light years beyond yours, and he is using them and an incredibly predatory.

[00:23:15] Manner, and I’m so grateful to people like Dr. David Pooler, who folks, if you’re listening to this for the first time and you’ve never heard of adult clergy sexual abuse, I really encourage you to go back and listen to some of those podcasts that we’ve done on adult clergy sexual abuse, because this is, this is one of, I, I would say, one of the most wicked things that could ever be done, where you have definitely a wolf in sheep’s clothing or even shepherd’s clothing, using the very things that God gives us as gifts and twisting them for really satanic evil purposes against someone.

[00:23:56] It is, it is absolutely evil, but at the time that you’re in it, Hailey, you are in a swirl of absolute confusion,

[00:24:10] Hayle Swinson: right

[00:24:11] julio: as you, you broke this off. Eventually with him and some of the emails are even seeing, you’re trying to put distance, you’re trying to put distance. Talk about that process of trying to get away from a relationship like this and extricating yourself and how just incredibly difficult it is to do.

[00:24:35] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. Um, if it’s okay before answering that, just to add, I think it goes with this Ms. Julie. Yeah. Um, along with the emails and, uh, he also would just buy me everything and from coffee to meals to, he would send me and his wife on shopping sprees and pay for it all. Uh, he even gave me his personal credit card after he’d done something and to me he’s like, Hey, I’m supposed to like, provide for you.

[00:25:08] This is the agreement from the Lord. And, uh. Constantly was getting gifts. On my birthday and Christmas, they had a specific chair in their house that was called the gift chair. I would, and they literally, he would make his kids gift me gifts all the time. And so you, you put that into the equation of not only did I know someone for three years, not only is he the first person to ever teach me the Bible and manipulate scripture from the front to the back, uh, but in the whole process you have what I now know is called like love bombing.

[00:25:44] You have all of this happening at the same time, which is so twisted. And so your question is a great question. How, how does one get out of that? Um, and I think for me, with the amount of pressure and, and manipulation, uh, that was happening, the way that I, I’ve told my team this story is, um, on my own, I really was still reading the Bible.

[00:26:08] Trying, uh, I was going to church and there’s a moment in 2018, uh, with Julie, and the way I describe it is there’s a scripture in John eight and, um, the scripture says, abide in me and you will be my disciples. You will know the truth. Mm-hmm. And the truth is what was saved free. And that’s the way I described.

[00:26:31] There was a moment that something clicked where I, on my own, separate from the manipulation, had abided in the Lord and I knew enough truth about who my God was. And I finally was like, that’s not God. That is not God. You know, I was like, I’ll never go back. I’ll never go back. And so, uh, that’s how I would say it.

[00:26:56] Um, there is, and I look back and it is gonna sound interesting maybe to some listeners. But I look back and I know that that’s the grace of the Lord, that he was rescuing me out of darkness. He, I’m thankful.

[00:27:15] julio: Wow. And what a,

[00:27:20] what a, a period of clarity and freedom and a gift that you had and the strength that you had in your person to get away from that. I, I know women, I had mentioned Mike Bickell before because the, the abuse is very similar in, in the, the context. There are still women who have not broken free even with all the reporting we’ve done.

[00:27:44] And so for you in that situation, to get that clarity from the Lord and have the strength of character mm-hmm. To come out of that speaks very highly of who you are as a person. And I know it’s still painful and that pain will be there for, for a very long time, I’m sure. But at the same time, you know, Hailey, good for you.

[00:28:10] I mean, what courage that took to, to get out of that. Uh, but when you, when you told him this, it wasn’t like he, he let you go. He worked hard to reel you back in, didn’t he?

[00:28:26] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. And I don’t know if I ever told him like, this, this thing, this encounter in this moment that this was just the final time that I just never went back to their house.

[00:28:34] Mm-hmm. For it. But yeah, he, he would still message me. I, I mean, at that moment I worked on the university, so I would still have to see him and um, everywhere. Because it’s a very small campus, so Yeah.

[00:28:51] julio: So you were, you were a soccer coach at this point. After you graduated, you became a coach of the soccer team, is that right?

[00:28:58] Hayle Swinson: I became a, a soccer coach, and then at this moment, um, I had transitioned into a new role. Uh, he actually created a whole new role for me that I directly reported to him, of course. Uh, and so it was in a nutshell, I forget the actual title, but it was basically to be like a life coach over, like women athletes on campus.

[00:29:20] So I was in that,

[00:29:21] julio: that role. Wow. And that’s, that too is quite typical, isn’t it, for the financial dependence, but then your, your job now you’re under him. Um, I, I wanna just, you wrote in an email, and this was 2018, you say the clarity of that moment came in 2019, but even in 2018, you wrote in an email to him that you felt like a victim, and you said, every time I’m touched.

[00:29:46] To me, it is wrong. You added, I think what pushed the pain to another level was every time I would finally get the courage to say something like this, you kept trying. And so what I’m seeing here is years of trying to get out of this, years of trying to extricate yourself. And even after you cut it off, you had to work with him.

[00:30:12] He’s your boss. How long did that continue?

[00:30:17] Hayle Swinson: Um, this was, uh, in 2018. I left in 2018. Um, and even that moment I was just describing to you, that was early 2018. It probably right after this moment, but Oh, okay. Um, so I, I, I don’t know for sure, uh, how long, but I did leave in, in 2018.

[00:30:36] julio: Wow. For some reason I had 2019 in my head.

[00:30:38] Maybe I misheard it there. No, I’m so sorry. No, that’s, that’s my fault. Um. But wow. What, what a So it, it, it lasted then from about 2013, if I’m understanding right, to 2018. Is that about, um,

[00:30:55] Hayle Swinson: 20 2009 is when I was introduced to his family. And so the green cross green, yeah. Started then. And then, uh, we don’t, I don’t actually know when, um, month by month when the actual trauma started, uh, and abuse.

[00:31:09] But, um, from the emails, it, it looks like it was, um, the end of my senior year going into the first year that I was working there.

[00:31:17] julio: Hmm. Wow. So, so incredibly hard during this time, my understanding is the trauma, the impact it had on you e even after you left the relationship was, I mean, severe suicidal kind of thoughts, depression.

[00:31:43] Is, is that right?

[00:31:45] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. Actually last night I was talking to the team. I remember something I remember in a while and I used to look in front of the mirror and make practice smiling and just smile in the mirror and hold it forever long. And, and that was his state of mind that I found myself in. And, um, when I left, I promise this, we’ll circle back to your question.

[00:32:12] When I left, um, really was like trying to compartmentalize it and really just trying to be safe. Um, but it wasn’t until when I stepped into counseling, um, really just wanted to be whole and, you know, want to be healed and wanted all the lies to be unwound to know who my God was. But when I stepped into counseling and, um, my body started to remember.

[00:32:40] All the things that had happened. Um, that was when I, I would rather not live. Um, I remember being like 30 years old on the floor in a Publix in the fetal position. ’cause I just remembered a memory that wiped me out. My counselor, her verbiage is, um, that I would have flashes of terror that immobilized me.

[00:33:08] And uh, yeah, I remember there’s a moment that I just couldn’t take another memory of what had happened to me. And I was like, I can’t do this. So.

[00:33:22] julio: Guau.

[00:33:26] While this was happening to you, did it ever cross your mind to report to the TMU administration? Or did you feel that? That would just not be received at all.

[00:33:44] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. I didn’t think anyone would believe me and that it’s just, to be honest, uh, now that we’ve started down this road, seems to be true even now.

[00:33:57] Yeah. Uh, that I still don’t feel like anyone, uh, believes me and at that university. And so, um, it, it, we learned in our investigation that, uh, the president was made aware multiple times, multiple years of the, uh, different things that he was doing to me. Mm-hmm. Or just inappropriate behavior. And, uh, he didn’t do anything Then at the different years that was brought up, he didn’t do anything.

[00:34:30] He never even said anything to me, never approached me. There’s nothing that was done. And so, yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:36] julio: I don’t, yeah. So the president, Dr. Emer Canner, am I pronouncing that right?

[00:34:46] Hayle Swinson: I think it’s, yeah. Emer. Kaner. Okay.

[00:34:48] julio: Dr. Emer Canner, um, was very close friends with Bradley Reynolds, is that correct?

[00:34:55] Hayle Swinson: Yes, ma’am.

[00:34:57] julio: And you shared an email with me from 2016, and apparently at that point, uh, according to the email, some people were going to the administration because they noticed the relationship that Bradley Reynolds had with you, and people were raising questions. One of ’em, you know, uh, recounts even seeing the two of you go into his house for lunch and not coming out after a long time.

[00:35:27] And, and so people on campus were beginning to see that there was something, you know, there were some red flags, which is interesting too. I mean. Yeah. Did his wife not see any red flags? I,

[00:35:42] Hayle Swinson: I think she’s, I don’t, I think she’s bound.

[00:35:48] julio: Yeah. I mean it, to me it just seems a little, and, you know, unbelievable that she wouldn’t see something at the same time when you’ve got a manipulator on this scale, she’s probably part of the manipulation as well.

[00:36:06] But anyway, in 2016, people were, were noticing this, and he talks about gossips going to the administration. So another, this is independent corroboration of what you just said, that people were talking to Dr. Kaner about this. And so the, the email talks about gossips and busy buddies going to the administration, complaining about his relationship with you.

[00:36:31] And he said he talked to President emer canner. About it, and this is the quote, Emir ca Emir did promise to tell Chris. I’m guessing that’s Chris Epling, another vp, that any more gossips like that will result in the person saying it being fired. That’s a pretty clear message to you that you, you’ve got, you’ve got no friend,

[00:37:00] Hayle Swinson: no one.

[00:37:01] julio: You’ve got no friend in the administration. Everyone’s on his side and they’re just gossips and busy buddies.

[00:37:08] Hayle Swinson: Si.

[00:37:10] julio: That is so typical. So typical. I, I can’t even tell you the number of times I’ve been labeled a gossip and busy buddy for bringing up these inconvenient stories of powerful people in Chris and Dun,

[00:37:25] Hayle Swinson: Ms.

[00:37:25] Julie. I hope it’s okay to say, but that came true. Uh, what we learned in our investigation, um, that it was just not just me. That there was other people on campus that were victims of different things, uh, like sexual assault. Mm-hmm. And people did lose their job and get fired. Yeah. And we were, we were left to believe it’s because they tried to stand up for truth.

[00:37:55] julio: And we’ll get into a little bit of that. Um, and that certainly was in the article that we reported, um, about certain individuals who just happened to get fired about the same time they reported. Yeah. Um, but one thing that you did find out as you investigated this and, um, we’ll also talk about the people you brought in, um, one of them being, um, Marsha, Marsha Schein, uh, a lawyer and also a friend of yours, uh, from church and investigator, uh, Stephanie Schuler, uh, who.

[00:38:30] We’re warriors for you absolute warriors. And every, every sex abuse victim should be so fortunate as to have two women like this in their, in their corner. Um, but God really provided, um, some amazing women to come alongside of you. One of the things that they found out in their investigation was that more than 50 female, 50 female, TMU students signed a petition in 2019 complaining about Reynolds behavior.

[00:39:07] And one of the things they noted in their petition is that what Reynolds would do is that he had to, he taught a freshman bible class that all the freshmen had to take. Correct. Uh, yeah. It like he had about theology, I think it was that every, everyone had to take Right. But you, you came, you met him your sophomore year, so I’m guessing.

[00:39:29] Y You never had him for this class?

[00:39:32] Hayle Swinson: No, ma’am.

[00:39:33] julio: Yeah. But what he would do was have them fill out a questionnaire, and on this questionnaire he would ask about whether they had any trauma in their past or anything like that. And so would ask an incredibly personal question that frankly no one should answer until you know that this is someone that you can trust.

[00:39:54] He would have them answer the, and then after getting these questionnaires, he would call the women in for one-on-one meetings to talk about these very personal things. And that became a context for, it sounds like grooming, but even perhaps much more serious than that. But again, 50 50 students sent this petition to the administration.

[00:40:24] And what’s your understanding of what happened with that petition? It’s my understanding that it was shut down. Nothing done. Nothing done. No investigation. No investigation to my understanding. And it’s also my understanding that if you take any federal funds whatsoever, you are subject to Title ix. If there is any suspicion of any abusive behavior, any sexual abuse, any sexual harassment, anything like that, it has to be reported.

[00:41:04] None of this was reported, correct?

[00:41:07] Hayle Swinson: I think it’s hard to know that we don’t have access to, you know, some of the things. Um, but I wouldn’t know for sure of, uh, other victims that did report it, um, and through a Title IX process and still was not, nothing was done, um,

[00:41:23] julio: to help her. Well, I should be, I should be more clear.

[00:41:26] Not reported to the school, reported to authorities. Like, you have to publish. Oh, you have to publish How many incidents happened on your campus? Hmm. And this was never done. No, ma’am. Yeah. So the counseling, you started counseling what year? In 2021. 2021. At what point in the counseling did it click with you that this was adult clergy sexual abuse?

[00:41:58] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. I, I don’t know if I could name it that. Um, um, but through counseling it was like I was understanding that I wasn’t crazy. Mm. Um, that I was groomed, that I was targeted, that I was spiritually manipulated, pressured, abused, and raped. And, um. It was just as my counselor sat with me in it all and began to explain really what was happening and how to walk through that.

[00:42:29] Knowing and acknowledging that this is my story probably was the hardest part to actually acknowledge, uh, yeah, this was me. That that’s what happened.

[00:42:40] julio: Uh, for it. Did you understand that you were a victim at that point? That what had been done to you was predatory? That it was abuse?

[00:42:53] Hayle Swinson: Uh, not when I started counseling.

[00:42:55] I don’t know if I could name it. Mm. And, uh, I don’t know if that was just self preserving either. Just trying not to, maybe that’s helpful. You know, not to put a name to it. And so the through counseling is, for the first time I would. Have verbiage to even call it something and to know what to name it, um, is kind of, is how it happened.

[00:43:19] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:20] julio: I ask that because so often when I talk to survivors of abuse like this, it is twisted often by the predator, but I think it’s, it is also how even the evil one uses experiences like this to make the victim feel the shame and the guilt that really only rightfully belongs to the predator.

[00:43:46] Hayle Swinson: Si.

[00:43:48] Si.

[00:43:50] julio: Were you able in, in that process to say, this wasn’t my fault?

[00:44:00] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. In the process of, of counseling, um, came to that. This is not my fault. I had no consent. There was a power differential, like you had said. He was a vice president and a pastor. I trusted him for three years before it started. It was wasn’t my fault.

[00:44:17] I was spiritually manipulated and raped at the hands of someone claiming that this is God’s will. Mm-hmm. And yeah. Able to say that now. Thank you Lord.

[00:44:29] julio: Well, and there’s so few, there’s so few states that have laws against adult clergy sexual abuse that recognize this as a criminal act. Um, and, and it’s sad.

[00:44:40] Every, every single state, in my opinion, should, should label this as abuse and should label it as a criminal act because it absolutely a hundred percent is criminal and a violation of the individual and needs to be recognized by the states. You, your counselors, I understand, encouraged you. To report it to police, which you finally did in, was that 2023?

[00:45:07] Hayle Swinson: Uh, in

[00:45:07] julio: 24. February of 2024. February of 2024. So you finally reported this to police in 20 of 24. What resulted and what were you hoping would happen as a result of reporting that?

[00:45:25] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. Um, before I enter it, uh, is it okay if I share one more thing?

[00:45:30] julio: Absolutamente.

[00:45:31] Hayle Swinson: I think it helps segue, but when you’re talking about counseling and just even major breakthroughs that happen mm-hmm.

[00:45:37] I, I would love to say this, uh, God has healed my heart and anger he’s healed it. And I’m not doing this because I’m evil or revengeful. I want the truth to be exposed. And I want, I want you to know what’s truly, whoever’s listening to know that. God has gotten me to a place where I’ve forgiven him, he’s forgiven.

[00:46:02] And, uh, I’m, I’m doing this because I don’t want no other girl on this campus that stands on God, uh, to, to experience anything that I experienced or whether other girls have experienced. So, yeah, in 2024 is when, um, I went, oh, took the first step. First step is to go back to the county that had happened and file the police report.

[00:46:27] And, um, in that moment, um, before leading up to that moment, um, my counselor just really asked me to pray about it. And she was like, Haley, sometimes this is part of people’s healing. Mm-hmm. And so I did.

[00:46:42] julio: Well, it is taking control, right? I mean, your agency was taken from you, it was manipulated and stolen from you.

[00:46:50] And so what, when you report, you’re taking that agency back. Yeah, you’re taking that control back. Unfortunately, my understanding is that, um, statute of limitations on rape is how long it’s, it had expired actually

[00:47:07] Hayle Swinson: can speak, but I think it’s four years. Four

[00:47:10] julio: years. And, and, and assault too. It’s four years.

[00:47:13] Four years. Unless there’s DNA evidence. Is that correct? I think so. Yes ma’am. Yeah. And this is why so few rapes are ever reported. It’s why so few rapes are ever prosecuted. Um, it takes so many years often for women to get to the place where they can, where they can name it as rape, right? Where they can recognize what was done to them.

[00:47:38] And by the time that happens, the statute of limitations is gone. And that’s why I think we do need some legal reform. I. Yeah. In, in our system. I mean, this is not just institutional issues, which it is an institutional issue, but this is also e even larger than the, the Christian institutions, but our legal institutions and, and seen some things there.

[00:48:00] You, as I mentioned earlier, and, and you’ve, you’ve talked about your, your advocates. Um, Marsha Schein, and again, Stephanie Schuler. One of them is with us right now, Marsha Sche. Um, so Marsha, thank you for being with us and, and joining this interview. Uh, I appreciate that when Haley came to you in 2024, soon after doing the police report, filing the police report, um, when you heard this story, what was your impression of it?

[00:48:39] Marcia Shein: Thanks for asking and thanks for doing this. Um, Haley’s a really brave, beautiful person. I was also a young Christian, uh, when I went to a Christian college, I was literally, uh, 16 when I was saved and went to a Christian college like two years later. So I, I understood her and it hit me right in the heart.

[00:48:58] And so from there, um, we started to look into it and, uh, Stephanie is the one that brought it to our attention. So when I heard the story, uh, there God wouldn’t let me resist. Um, it was just sort of, you can’t not, you can’t ignore this. And so, uh, both Stephanie and I stepped up and, um, I asked Stephanie to do a lot.

[00:49:22] She did a lot to, to make sure we understood the facts. Mm-hmm. Had enough evidence mm-hmm. To support, uh, coming forward. And, uh, it was the most disappointing and angering experience I’ve heard of with the sexual abuse of this nature in the Christian environment. Um. And, and I, you know, I, I will say I’ve had opportunity to speak to the school’s attorney and it was disappointing that after our conversation, uh, there was no res real response, anything further.

[00:49:53] Um, and, and I wanna make clear that a lot of women, whether in this situation or otherwise mm-hmm. In abusive situations, if they push full relationship for the, for the perpetrator and makes the other person feel it’s their fault. And so the people around, um, Haley made it sound like it was her fault because she was, quote, an adult, but this man was married, had two children, vice president of a Christian college, as you said, was a pastor, 20 years from senior.

[00:50:26] If you wanna blame Stephanie, then you have to recognize that his spiritual, uh, violations were so significantly greater just on the premise of his existence in this experience. Hmm. That you can’t blame Haley at all. And that’s the difficulty in these situations. They always wanna blame the victim. And you can’t in this because if you’re going with corruption both in Christian life and in spiritual life, this man is the most corrupt I’ve ever seen.

[00:50:55] julio: Mm-hmm. Yeah,

[00:50:56] Marcia Shein: it is. You can still see I have that experience in my heart. That’s so, it’s so vile

[00:51:02] julio: and dark and a hundred percent is, and I think what’s, what’s, what’s especially difficult about these situations is that what, what you expect is that this is one bad apple, right? That this is one evil man who somehow slipped through the system.

[00:51:21] But what you found, and what I’m hearing you say, and I have read the dossier so I, I know what’s going on. Um, and especially Mark Kel Kelner, who, who wrote our story, um, has done his own independent research on this as well. There are numerous times that the president was informed, and this is what makes it so hard.

[00:51:42] It’s, it’s, it’s not just the one bad apple. It is, it is the enablers all around him. Mm-hmm. And, and too often a misogynistic system where women are not valued. There’s a lot of lip service that women are valued, but they’re not valued and correct. And unfortunately, it seems like there’s a good old boy network at the top that is more concerned about institutional protection and personal protection than about the victim you would want.

[00:52:13] You would think a Christian school, when someone comes forward, describes this level of predatory behavior. And it’s not just Haley, we know there were other women,

[00:52:22] Hayle Swinson: right.

[00:52:22] julio: That the school would, that the school would respond as Yeah. Investigation. Yeah. Yeah. And the school would respond, Marsha, as you did, is what you would expect.

[00:52:31] Appalled. Heartbroken, yes. Angry, right. Right. And they, they

[00:52:36] Marcia Shein: didn’t release him until 2024 and they didn’t fire him. They just released him. Uh, and, and the, the trauma of this is with several other victims that we ran into, uh, who were fearful of coming forward. There was a prior victim who, who spoke with us where he had done this same verbiage to her in another state before he even went to TMU.

[00:53:03] And so all of these experiences that we investigated, though they don’t want to come forward, are real. And when you look at that and you look at the school with other issues they have had, um, and they know about including, uh, an investigation that occurred, uh, in the gym with another victim. They just have, uh, basically, uh, suppressed all of this and tried to just blame anybody but themselves.

[00:53:30] No responsibility, no acceptance of. Oh boy. We need to make a cultural change. We need to make a leadership change. Nothing. They just have actually tried to, uh, make everybody else that we’ve talked to or Haley, all the liars and the victims, and it’s just, um, an untenable disgrace to Christianity and spiritual

[00:53:52] Hayle Swinson: life

[00:53:52] Marcia Shein: of them.

[00:53:53] Hayle Swinson: It’s Julie. Mm-hmm. I hope this is okay to say, uh, but for another victim that came forward with us with an investigation, the one that Ms. Marshall was describing, something happened in the, in the gym. Um, that guy’s still there. He’s on the table. Yeah. And so

[00:54:15] Marcia Shein: it’s hard, and I want you to know one other thing.

[00:54:18] When we asked about the petition mm-hmm. The words that I got back, we never saw any petition.

[00:54:25] julio: They’re denying seeing it. They said that they can’t find it.

[00:54:30] Hayle Swinson: There’s even. There’s students who signed it and staff that signed it. Like we, that’s all been surfaced. Mm-hmm. Um, but it was just a point blank denial, uh, of it.

[00:54:42] Ms. Marsha, is this okay to tell Ms. Julie, or you’ve already seen it in the, in the paper, but about not just the president, um, kind of being silent about it all, but the, the trustee level? Well, I, I’ll speak

[00:54:58] Marcia Shein: to that. Yeah. ’cause you don’t really know as much. No. But, uh, we’ve been doing some follow up work with different people and you may know this.

[00:55:08] Uh, and they have reached out to the trustees to try to get them to pay attention to this. And not one of the trustees has reached out to just Haley, forget about me as a lawyer. Don’t have to talk to me. But no one’s reached out to Haley. No one’s reached out to any of the people we’ve told them could speak to this, who were witnesses to this, who understood what happened.

[00:55:29] Yeah, they not one trustee took the initiative to investigate any of the things that we sent them, and we sent them a dossier I sent you mm-hmm. With some summary details. And most of them were appalled. But, uh, the feedback, uh, we’ve gotten, uh, is, uh, crickets.

[00:55:47] julio: Crickets.

[00:55:48] Marcia Shein: And that tells you a lot about the trustees relationship with the leadership.

[00:55:52] Either they’re afraid of him or they don’t feel like they should, uh, do the right thing on behalf of the school. Mm-hmm. Forget about everything else, just the school, if this is what they have to show for the school.

[00:56:04] julio: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:05] Marcia Shein: It’s not a good school.

[00:56:07] julio: Let’s talk, I wanna just mention, highlight a few things in that dossier, which are, are really troubling.

[00:56:13] One is there, there was a man by the name of Jonathan Morris. He was the T TMU Title IX Coordinator. So they did at 2016 have a Title IX coordinator. He reported what. Some of these red flags were concerning Bradley Reynolds and Hailey. And then what happened to him from your investigation?

[00:56:39] Marcia Shein: He’s been terminated and the position they’re taking is he was not trustworthy human, uh, person, uh, working for the school because of some, uh, confusion over a credit card issue.

[00:56:51] And so they use that to terminate him. But we know, we believe, let’s say, we believe that it was much, uh, different than that. And so it, uh, you can discredit him all you want, but there’s too many pieces and too much evidence to say that these people aren’t telling the truth. ’cause they’re, we believe them.

[00:57:08] julio: Yeah. And the credit card issue, my understanding is he recognized that he, he had made, uh, an inappropriate charge and he quickly reimbursed the school.

[00:57:18] Marcia Shein: He resolved it very quickly. Yes. Yeah. There was, uh, again, there’s too many witnesses. They, it’s typical lawyering and you try to discredit everybody, but the people.

[00:57:29] julio: Hmm. Yeah, there was another vice president, I mentioned him before, Chris Eeping, uh, A TMU Vice President, and he spoke up my understanding and soon after got fired as well. Is, am I understanding that correctly? That is

[00:57:45] Marcia Shein: correct. He was supposedly related to the credit card issue. We don’t know the real facts underlying that, but there was nothing in his background that suggested he was, uh, a liar, a cheat, or a stealer of any kind.

[00:57:58] And he come forward and been very, uh, proactively honest about everything. He did not sign an NDA, he just realized, he said, I can’t do this ’cause this isn’t right. And God bless him for that. Mm-hmm.

[00:58:10] julio: Yes. And we do know that they were pressured to sign NDAs though. Um, and so we don’t even know the number of people that may have signed NDAs.

[00:58:21] Again, non-disclosure agreements, shocking to me. That they’re used at Christian universities are used at churches. Okay. Now it’s become standard practice. And, and again, NDAs, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, Marsha, but they were created to protect proprietary information. Like my son worked for Intel for a while.

[00:58:45] He had to sign an NDA because of course they’re, they’re dealing with trade secrets and you don’t want those to get out. And, but we’re not talking about trade secrets. No. At TMU

[00:58:55] Marcia Shein: this is usually,

[00:58:56] julio: we’re talking about first Amendment rights,

[00:58:58] Marcia Shein: right? This is usually intellectual property and protection of, uh, material things that the person had access to, to be protected from being given to somebody in competitive nature.

[00:59:08] The SI type of NDAs that have been assigned or identified I’ve looked at are, um, extremely severe in that they specifically. Uh, prohibit the person from speaking about anybody at the university, anything that went wrong at the university or any other information they have regarding any student, employee or staff or professors.

[00:59:31] I mean, it’s, the language is different than what I’m, I’m summarizing that, but it’s so personally freedom, speech, restrictive.

[00:59:39] julio: Yeah. And, and good on Mr. Eppling and, uh, Jonathan Morris for refusing to sign those NDAs. Um, because then they were able to speak, although, and again, correct me if I’m wrong, Marsha, but if, if you sign an nda, a, you are still, those can never protect illegal activity.

[01:00:00] That’s the belief. If there’s so something illegal, that’s

[01:00:02] Marcia Shein: the belief, of course, that’s the belief that they shouldn’t be allowed to cover up, protect, or minimize some criminal activity or, or, or this type of behavior. That would be a question that would have to be litigated in court. And unfortunately I believe they would’ve done that.

[01:00:16] Um, and, and just so you know, that the statute of limitations, both civilly and criminally for Haley to be able to use, were all, uh, exhausted by the time her ability to focus in and the heal occurred. Uh, we are now working with the legislature in Georgia to increase the amount of time allowed for women who are abused in this way to come forward because it’s very seldom they do in a four year window.

[01:00:40] They’ve given. And one of the legislators that is in her district has agreed to let us help her prepare a bill be submitted for the January session next year, uh, for a 10 to 15 year increase. Fantastic. Yeah.

[01:00:55] julio: Wow. Wow. And would that be retroactive? I would, would that be retroactive? Probably not. Probably not.

[01:01:01] We’ll,

[01:01:01] Marcia Shein: we’ll of course ask for it, but ultimately if it does pass, it’ll be a major victory from the bravery of people like Haley.

[01:01:10] julio: Yeah. And Hailey, I mean, what would that feel like if that were passed for you?

[01:01:15] Hayle Swinson: Wow. Uh, I prayed a long time. Uh, Genesis 50 talks about the story of Joseph, and then he says to his brothers, with the enemy meant for harm and for evil, uh, the guy won’t used for good.

[01:01:27] But after that is a comma and it says, for the saving of many lives. Mm. And I’m just praying that that would come to pass, that we would get the opportunity to be a part of changing, uh, a law in the state of Georgia so that more people can be heard, can be believed, and it can have healing in their heart.

[01:01:45] But for me personally, I pray that God uses it not just for good of my life, but that he would save lives from it. And people will see that there is a God that loves him despite the pain.

[01:01:57] julio: Hmm. And how redemptive that would be to see something good come out of something so evil. And I will say, you know, I’d mentioned the Mike Bickell situation.

[01:02:08] Right now, the state of Missouri has, um, has actually, there, there’s passed both houses. Uh, a law that would enable, um, or would actually protect child sex abuse victims from signing NDAs and from those being binding and also the statute of limitations of that being, being changed in, in the state of Missouri, same things happening in the state of Texas.

[01:02:33] Both of those bills in Missouri and Texas are waiting for the governors to sign them. And this happened because the victims, the victims of Robert Morris. Um, people like Cindy Cle Shire who was abused when she was just 12 years old. Um, victims like Tammy Woods, who was abused by Mike Bickell when she was only 14.

[01:02:51] I mean, these victims are coming forward and using their voice and speaking and, you know, the Me Too movement, the Church two movement, which conservative Christians and I am one, but it infuriates me that some conservative Christians would somehow paint this as a progressive movement. It’s my understanding that men who care about the protection of women, that men who care about this would be behind.

[01:03:21] Protecting sex abuse victims and would be part of the church too. And the Me Too movement and shame on people who try to diss that movement and say, paint it as something progressive when this is not a conservative or progressive movement. This is a pro women and dignity and being made in the image of God movement, not a Yeah.

[01:03:41] And how dare they do that? It’s

[01:03:42] Marcia Shein: not a progressive issue, it’s an issue of spiritual honesty.

[01:03:48] julio: Amen. Yeah. Amen. It absolutely a hundred percent is. And, uh, again, I am so I’m proud to know both of you and grateful to know both of you and, um, your advocacy, Marsha, along with Stephanie’s advocacy, and Hailey, your bravery to come forward and, and tell what was a very difficult story.

[01:04:14] Um, so proud of you and, and we’ve mentioned the law. Um, being possibly changed and the hopeful, uh, the, the wishes for that kind of an outcome. Are there some other outcomes that you would like to see as a result of speaking up?

[01:04:36] Hayle Swinson: Yeah. Um, I wrote ’em down, so I’m gonna be like, I’ll look down. But, um, my prayer is that my story and the stories of other victims that were discovered over the last decade at Treat McConnell University would no longer be dismissed but heard so that it will help make it possible for no other girl to be a victim on this campus ever again.

[01:04:59] And, um, my hope is that the school, uh, just gonna really say it. I hope there’s some changes, some changes in procedures, seniors changes in policies, but also changes in leadership that have continued to just deny and not believe. Um, people for over a decade of what’s happened at their school. Um, so I hope that, and I pray God’s will for that, uh, to be done, but I also pray and hope, um, not in evil way, but just in a real way.

[01:05:34] I hope that Bradley Reynolds is not allowed to be a pastor or to be in higher education for a very long time. And I, I hope with this story coming out, uh, that we will get to the opportunity to, to be a part of the law changing. Um, but I think lastly, uh, I hope and pray that this, this, uh, conversation will be a part of ha healing.

[01:06:03] Uh, those of y’all that are listening, and this is your story and may not look the same, but this is your story. Hope, uh, that you know that God’s not the one who did something to you. That there’s still a God that loves you. And, uh, I pray, uh, that, that you would feel that and you would know that. And so that’s my hope, Julie.

[01:06:23] julio: Hmm. That’s beautiful, Hailey. And I could just add to that, um, I would hope that Bradley Reynolds would be disqualified permanently from ever serving in a position of trust again, that that should not happen. Um, there are qualifications for an elder and a pastor in scripture, and he has blown every single one of those, and he may not serve again.

[01:06:48] Um, in fact, I would wonder what his spiritual state and his, if he, even as a believer, and that’s not, I can’t know his heart, but I tell you, they say, you know, a tree by its fruit and no tree that has this kind of fruit to me is a good tree. And so, um, he needs some help and he needs repentance, and that would be the most loving thing that we could do for him.

[01:07:10] He can be restored to fellowship, he can be restored to the church. He may not be restored to position of trust. Frankly, there’s not enough years left in his life to build the kind of trust that he’s betrayed, uh, in this situation. I would say for Dr. Amir Kaner, given the way that he handled this absolutely grounds for firing, and if I were a parent of a young daughter considering going to TMU, I would certainly think twice, and I, I would urge the school to do a third party independent investigation of all of this.

[01:07:47] Yeah, yeah. Which essentially you’ve done, Marsha, you and Stephanie have done that third party investigation. Um. But if they don’t trust that, do your own third party investigation, not just of Bradley Reynolds, but you mentioned there was another person who has been reported as a sexual predator. Um, he should be investigated and the entire administration and their handling of this whole horrible affair should be investigated and the trustees should be ordering that immediately.

[01:08:16] The trustee’s job is not to protect the leadership, not to protect the administration, but to protect the mission of the school. And too many trustee boards are there trying to protect the administration and the institution, but not the mission. And the mission is supposed to be the discipleship of young adults in Jesus Christ in the church to be like him.

[01:08:40] And so well said. They have a hundred percent need to do this. Uh, Marsha, do you want to add anything to that? No, you said it beautifully. Um, they, independent

[01:08:50] Marcia Shein: investigations could have been done already. It hasn’t been done. We’ve asked for it. We, we rec, we encouraged it. Um, but not one, it’s just crickets.

[01:08:59] So from this, um, yeah, there’s just a lot of evil that needs to be addressed. And like you said, the trustees’ responsibility in my school that I went was to take care of the school, the student, period.

[01:09:12] Hayle Swinson: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:13] Marcia Shein: The life of the school may be at risk because of this, and that’s what they should be looking.

[01:09:16] Si.

[01:09:18] julio: Yeah. And as I recall, there’s also a pretty strong warning in scripture about those who lead one of these children of God astray. And it’s a very strong warning about it being better to be dropped with a millstone around your neck in the deep of sea. So, um, this is a very serious issue. Um, it involves the souls of people made in God’s image.

[01:09:45] And I just wanna thank you, Haley. I. And Marsha for speaking out and being willing to stand for truth. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you,

[01:09:53] Hayle Swinson: Ms. Julie. Thank you so much.