Phil Johnson, director of John MacArthur’s broadcast ministry, Grace to You (GTY), argued in a recent videotaped interview with Justin Peters that MacArthur’s large salaries don’t reveal greed, but instead restraint, and his alleged nepotism is a farce. Yet when examined, the arguments Johnson presented are full of holes and raise even more red flags.
For example, Johnson’s argument that MacArthur was magnanimous when he declined to take a 10-percent royalty on the sales of his sermons is surprising, given that doing so would violate IRS rules.
Also, Johnson’s argument that MacArthur’s $400K+ compensation from GTY in 2012 was not exorbitant because it included a rare Bible that MacArthur “turned around and gave away” is misleading. It seems MacArthur didn’t give away the Bible until four years later—after news of MacArthur’s $400K+ compensation from GTY became public.
In addition, Johnson omitted key facts when explaining MacArthur’s practice of stacking GTY’s board with family members. And he made dubious claims when dismissing questions of nepotism for GTY paying MacArthur’s son-in-law millions.
Plus, as is his pattern, Johnson accused me of having a motive “that is totally evil and probably rooted in bitterness” for raising questions about payments to MacArthur’s son-in-law.
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The apostle Paul commended the Bereans for searching the Scriptures to see if what he was saying was true. But apparently to Johnson, even daring to question MacArthur and/or his ministries is a grievous sin.
I addressed Johnson’s distressing pattern of bullying, name-calling, and assuming evil motives in part one of my response to Johnson’s video. I also showed how Johnson’s allegations against me are demonstrably false.
In this article, I explore how Johnson’s defense of MacArthur and his financial dealings doesn’t resolve any of the issues in my original article, but actually raises more.
The King James Bible Gift
In the year ending 2012, GTY paid John MacArthur $402,444 in compensation for working 20 hours a week. That’s in addition to the $103,280 MacArthur received from The Master’s University and Seminary (TMUS), the undisclosed salary he received from Grace Community Church, as well as book royalties and speaking fees. (Johnson states in his video with Peters that MacArthur makes “millions . . . on book royalties.”)
In the video with Peters, Johnson explains MacArthur’s large 2012 GTY salary the same way he does in a statement he released in 2014: MacArthur’s salary topped $400K in 2012 because the ministry gave MacArthur a rare, first-edition King James Bible worth about $200,000.
I reported Johnson’s explanation about the Bible in my original article, so this was not new information. The new claim is that MacArthur donated the Bible, seemingly, in short order.
“He’s not a very good miser if greed is his motivation because he turned around and gave it away,” Johnson said. “He put it in the seminary’s rare book collection.”
Johnson said nothing about MacArthur donating the Bible in his 2014 statement. And after examining TMUS’ 990 tax forms, it’s clear why he didn’t. In 2014, MacArthur apparently hadn’t yet given away the Bible.[pullquote]Johnson said nothing about MacArthur donating the Bible in his 2014 statement. And after examining TMUS’ 990 tax forms, it’s clear why he didn’t. In 2014, MacArthur apparently hadn’t yet given away the Bible.[/pullquote]
From the first part of 2012—when MacArthur was given the Bible—through June 30, 2015, there are no large, non-cash donations of “historical artifacts” reported on TMUS’ 990s.
However, on TMUS’s 2015 990 tax form—the year after MacArthur came under intense scrutiny from bloggers for his large GTY compensation—it shows an “historical artifacts” donation worth $210,000.
So MacArthur received the $210,000 Bible from GTY in 2011/2012. But he apparently didn’t donate it until 2015/2016—approximately four years later. And he did so only after being called out publicly for taking more than $402K in one year for his part-time job at GTY.
MacArthur Foregoes Royalties?
Another factor Johnson cites to ameliorate MacArthur’s large GTY salary is MacArthur’s decision not to take royalties of 10% on sales of his sermon recordings.
Johnson says this in the context of trying to explain his comment from 2014 that for the first 30 years of GTY, MacArthur took no salary.
GTY incorporated in the 1980s and MacArthur has been taking a salary for at least the past 19 years, so the statement is factually incorrect. However, Johnson states that he’s dating the beginning of GTY as the year MacArthur became pastor at Grace Community Church (GCC) and the church started selling cassettes of MacArthur’s sermons.
Johnson said elders at the church suggested MacArthur take 10 cents on every dollar for the cassette sales, but MacArthur declined to do so.
“That’s the amount I’ve heard—10 cents a tape—which sounds like not much,” Johnson said. “But when you’re selling, you know, 10 million tapes, that’s a million dollars that he decided to forego right away.”
However, giving a pastor royalties on sales of his sermons is forbidden by the IRS, according to Michelle Adams, a nonprofit attorney specializing in Christian ministries and churches.
“Many people seem to think that the following one builds through one’s role in the church belongs to that person alone,” she stated. “But the truth is, in tax-exempt law your employer (the nonprofit) owns the work that you produce on the job. Specifically, when you are paid to be a pastor, the intellectual property produced through your pastoral duties (which certainly includes sermon-making) belongs to the organization that commissioned you to create it.”[pullquote]”(W)hen you are paid to be a pastor, the intellectual property produced through your pastoral duties (which certainly includes sermon-making) belongs to the organization that commissioned you to create it.”[/pullquote]
Similarly, Frank Sommerville, a Dallas-based attorney specializing in nonprofit law, states in Christianity Today that if a sermon qualifies as work for hire, the intellectual rights for that sermon belong to the church.
He adds that intellectual property rights are considered “charitable assets” and by law, must be used for “charitable purposes” not “private inurement.” (Despite this, the article notes that some celebrity pastors, like Chuck Swindoll, have been able to negotiate contracts with their churches, granting them ownership of their sermons.)
Clearly, MacArthur taking royalties on cassettes of his sermons would be an abuse of the law. But the intellectual property issue also raises another question.
Adams adds that books, study guides, and commentaries resulting from time working for a nonprofit belong to the nonprofit, as well. Given that MacArthur is paid a salary for jobs at three nonprofits, this raises the question: On whose time did MacArthur write all his books, study guides, and commentaries?
As I wrote in my original article on MacArthur’s wealth, MacArthur claims to work from 30- to 60 hours/week for just GTY and The Master’s University and Seminary (TMUS). Assuming MacArthur works a mere 20 hours a week at GCC, MacArthur is then claiming he works a combined 50 to 80 hours a week for all his nonprofits.
Given this fact, it’s almost inconceivable that MacArthur wrote all his books, study guides, and commentaries on his own time and that none contain intellectual property that belongs to his nonprofits.
So, MacArthur isn’t being magnanimous when he takes three salaries from his nonprofits, as well as millions in royalties.
What would be magnanimous would be to forego royalties on books like John Piper. Or, like prosperity preacher Joel Osteen, MacArthur could have stopped taking a salary from his church. Even more magnanimous, he could have followed the example of Rick Warren, who reimbursed his church for his salary once he began making millions in royalties.
Instead, MacArthur for decades has not only taken sizable salaries from every ministry in which he’s been involved, but also has pocketed millions for the many products that bear his name.
All in the Family
Johnson similarly obfuscates and misleads when he defends MacArthur’s practice of placing his sons on the GTY board and paying his son-in-law millions in contracts.
MacArthur’s two sons—Matt MacArthur and Mark MacArthur—have served on the GTY board for decades. Matt MacArthur has consistently served as treasurer for GTY. And Mark MacArthur just rolled off the GTY board last year after being charged with fraud by the Securities and Exchange Commission for his involvement in a $16 million investment scheme.
Yet, in the video, Johnson makes it sound like the practice of having both sons on the board was a one-time thing.
Johnson repeatedly states that “one of John’s sons is on our board” and “there is one family member on the Grace to You Board.” Then, almost as an aside, he mentions, “At one point, two of (MacArthur’s) sons were on the board.”
But both MacArthur’s sons didn’t serve on GTY’s board “at one point”; they served on the GTY board for decades. And Mark MacArthur stopped serving only after being charged with defrauding investors of millions.[pullquote]But both MacArthur’s sons didn’t serve on GTY’s board “at one point”; they served on the GTY board for decades. And Mark MacArthur stopped serving only after being charged with defrauding investors of millions.[/pullquote]
Johnson also defends Matt MacArthur’s role as GTY treasurer with a dubious argument. He says the reason Mark was chosen to serve as treasurer was simply pragmatic: “It has to do with geography,” Johnson states. “He’s the one who’s close by, who can sign check and do things like that when it needs to be done.”
Johnson adds that it would be a “logistical nightmare if one of our board members from, say Atlanta, was our treasurer.”
Yet other GTY board members live in Southern California where GTY is headquartered. This includes longtime board member Christopher Parkening and Peter Coeler, who owns a business in nearby Studio City, California.
Johnson’s explanation seems yet another attempt to obfuscate, rather than deal with the concerning reality that Matt MacArthur, who clearly has a conflict of interest, controls the finances of GTY.
A similar conflict of interest exists with the longstanding contract GTY has with Kory Welch, John MacArthur’s son-in-law. From 2009—2019, GTY paid more than $8.3 million to Welch’s businesses to produce videos for the ministry.
Johnson says my motivations clearly are “totally evil” for questioning this nepotistic arrangement, which is absurd. Anyone who wouldn’t question this arrangement is foolish.
In fact, Welch’s similar contractual relationship with The Master’s University and Seminary (TMUS), another nonprofit MacArthur heads, was a main reason the accrediting body for TMUS—the Western Association of Schools and Colleges (WASC)—placed TMUS on probation in 2018.
In its report, WASC stated: “The team notes with concern a pattern of operational irregularities, including the 2017 auditor’s specific finding on appearance of conflicts of interest with the President’s son-in-law supervising a contract from which he benefits . . .”[pullquote]“The team notes with concern a pattern of operational irregularities, including the 2017 auditor’s specific finding on appearance of conflicts of interest with the President’s son-in-law supervising a contract from which he benefits . . .”[/pullquote]
Johnson justifies GTY hiring Welch by explaining that “the great advantage to using Kory is he can get John to videotape special things at a drop of a hat, whereas John, you know, he’s gonna say ‘no’ if some Hollywood producer . . . says, ‘I need you to come down here and sit for a three-hour video thing.’”
This is essentially arguing, “We’re not hiring Welch just because he’s MacArthur’s son-in-law but because he’s MacArthur’s son-in-law.”
If GTY must hire a family member of MacArthur’s so that MacArthur will cooperate with the demands of his extremely lucrative, part-time job, that’s a problem.
However, Johnson also argues that hiring Welch saves the ministry money.
Johnson asserts that GTY had conducted a cost-benefit analysis before hiring Welch. And the ministry determined that hiring Welch as an independent contractor to produce videos was cheaper than employing Welch as a GTY employee and producing the videos in-house.
This is a dubious claim, given that GTY employed Welch for $84K in 2008 to produce videos and paid his wife, Melinda Welch, a mere $17K. But in 2009, GTY paid Welch’s company $741K for “post-production services.” Also, at the time, GTY had already purchased the video equipment necessary to produce the videos, according to Johnson.
I contacted Johnson and GTY CFO David Fisk, specifically requesting documentation for the costs to produce videos in-house at GTY in 2008, but they did not respond. I also asked for documentation for the alleged cost-benefit analyses Johnson referenced in the video, but they did not respond to that request either.
Johnson additionally asserts that when GTY first hired Welch, it collected bids from other video companies and Welch’s bid was competitive.
I asked Johnson and Fisk for documentation of those bids, but neither replied.
Red Flags Remain
Sadly, Johnson’s interview does not resolve any of the financial issues raised in my article on MacArthur’s finances, but instead reveals Johnson’s continued pattern of deception and false accusations.
Equally sad, Justin Peters, who posted the video of his interview with Johnson on his ministry’s YouTube channel, has refused to interview me so I can present the facts to his audience. To date, the video of Peters’ interview with Johnson has received more than 214K views.
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175 Responses
AMEN!
Don’t worry, I’m sure there will be a considerable proportion of YouTube viewers who have a modicum of discernment and can see straight through Johnson & Peters.
If anyone hasn’t got that discernment then we have to feel sorry for them. They will fall for anything (probably because they rely on men to teach them instead of the Holy Spirit as Jesus commands in John 14:26 & 16:13 and are thus blinded by idolatry).
“Obfuscation” (the word you use to describe Johnson’s methods) is the right word: it’s the opposite of transparency, which is associated with LIGHT.
Obfuscation is associated with obscurity i.e DARKNESS
MHEUSTON — I saw that YouTube video on Justin’s channel with Phil Johnson and I assure you, we need to pray for others to learn some discernment. There are MANY comments there, people just “falling all over” those men and JMac, it would make you weep as it did me. People aren’t opening their Bibles, even in this late hour and that saddens me too. Discernment seems all but non-existent, though I pray that some either walked away partway through as I did or hurt inside from what they heard as I did. You surely used the RIGHT words: idolatry and indeed, there was much “obfuscation” as well. I truly believe the Lord is coming soon to set things right, I really do. Be blessed!
Biblical thoughts to an initial charge.
“This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be FOUND FAITHFUL . But with me it is a VERY SMALL THING that I SHOULD BE JUDGED BY YOU or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not THEREBY ACQUITTED. IT IS THE LORD WHO JUDGES ME. Therefore do NOT PRONOUNCE JUDGEMENT BEFORE THE TIME, before the Lord comes, WHO WILL BRING TO LIGHT the things now hidden in darkness and WILL DISCLOSE PURPOSES of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.”
1 Corinthians 4:1-5
“Do not despise prophecies, but TEST EVERYTHING; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.”1Thessalonians 5:20-22
“Let the elders who rule well be considered WORTHY of DOUBLE HONOR, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching”
1 Timothy 5:17
“ The simple BELIEVES EVERYTHING,
but the prudent GIVES THOUGHTS to his steps.”
Proverbs 14:15
“ A fool gives FULL VENT TO HIS SPIRIT,
but a wise man QUIETLY HOLDS it back.”
Proverbs 29:11
“Have you NO ANSWER TO MAKE? ( ideas is He didn’t respond to the changes made) See how many charges they bring against you.”
Mark 15:4b
“ I appeal to you, brothers, BY THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, that all of you agree, and that there be NO DIVISIONS among you, but that you be united in the SAME MIND and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.“
1 Corinthians 1:10-11
“ If one gives an answer before he hears,
it is his folly and shame. A man’s spirit will endure sickness, but a crushed spirit who can bear? AN INTELLIGENT HEART ACQUIRES KNOWLEDGE, and the Ear of the WISE SEEKS KNOWLEDGE. A man’s gift makes room for him and brings him before the great. The one who STATES his case FIRST SEEMS RIGHT, until the other comes and EXAMINES him.”
Proverbs 18:13-17
My aim is to apply these verses to this article. Not willing to pronounce judgement before the time.The Lord will judge. God will disclose the motives of his heart. I’m going to test (NOT JUDGE) everything. I agree with Paul when he states an elder who preaches is worthy of double honor. My concerns with this page is all these divisions. Again, give thought before we draw conclusions on either side. Really praying for this mess.
To which I counter with:
Christians should always be aware of how their actions are perceived by others. This Biblical principle is taught in no uncertain terms:
1) Jesus taught that we should go out of our way to make sure we don’t unnecessarily offend those around us by our actions (cf. Matt. 17:24-27).
2) Christians should avoid doing things – even if they aren’t wrong in and of themselves – if doing so might make a brother stumble (1 Cor. 8:9, 13).
3) Christians must ensure that they live honorably in the sight of all men (Rom. 12:17; 2 Cor. 8:20-21).
4) Christians need to ask themselves if what they are doing will bring glory to God (cf. 1 Cor. 10:31).
5) Christians should ensure that they don’t knowingly put an obstacle in anyone’s way (2 Cor. 6:3).
So tell me how does MacArthur’s and PJ’s actions (especially since both are elders – you know that above reproach thing) square with these? Or perhaps these texts slipped your mind.
CM,
thanks for the texts. I’ve considered them and have a response. I spent 3 hours considering the verses listed especially with in the context of the paragraph, chapter, chapters surrounding, books co text and the meta-narrative of scripture. I hope that you do the following with the texts I listed. However, I am fallible but these are my thoughts:
1. Matthew 17:24. Context is temple tax can expound more if like but different context.
2. 1 Cor. 8:9, 13. This is in reference to the whole book. 1 Corinthians 1-4, Paul is dealing with conflicts in the church of Corinth, chapter 5-6 practical outcomes from divisions. Then, chapter 7, Paul is dealing with direct reports, chapter 7 Paul is responding to the issues of divisions. He (chapter 7) does a yes… But. There are 2 sides to every issue.He does the same in chapter 8. Paul talks about knowledge making people arrogant and (8:1-2) love will fill in the gaps. Biblical knowledge should be out of a love for Jesus. Therefore knowledge of Jesus doesn’t puff up. So I would not want to eat food because I love and I’m HIS (9:17). (4-6) eating meat itself is not sin. Because of v4b- we know Idols are a sham. Mark 7:19 Jesus said all foods are clean. They don’t become dirty because you give it to a fake god.
BUT. He is trying to pull the church together. He tips his hat to both sides of an issue. 11:17 has shown the effects of division. Paul doesn’t commend it. When chapters 12-14. Paul gives the IV for this division. YOU USING THESE VERSES BY THEMSELVES CAN BE DANGEROUS BECAUSE IT IS NOT IN THE CONTEXT. You are using texts to prove your point. Not letting the text speak in context. Ideas in this church (CORINTH) had divisions everywhere. Christian tribes arise from taking texts, things, statements, people out of the intended context. A WEAK CONSCIENCE IS A MISINFORMED CONSCIENCE. So Biblical truth is needed to build love and truth into the conscience. So, yes be aware of the weaker brother. That person needs to be built up in the church and be informed and not stay at this “weak spot”.
3. Rom. 12:17; 2 Cor. 8:20-21)..
– One can not understand Romans 12:17 unless the context is taken from v.1-21. Idea is that you have been transformed and able to discern what is the will of God, what is GOOD, ACCEPTABLE AND PERFECT.v. 17 is a good text for the individual to consider about their OWN responses to persecution. The context of this situation is not ours to judge John, Phil or Julie. John has been silent. Julie and Phil have not been. This verse (Romans 12:17) in its context would be great for Phil and Julie to consider.
– 2 Corinthians 8:20-21 uses Titus as an example of this “generous gift” is honorable by carrying this message of grace.” No one should blame us” plus this is in the “Lord’s sight and sight of man” God has put the same earnest care with this generous gift. (17) The grace is administered for the Glory of the Lord (19). He repeats this idea (23-24) that this is for the glory of Christ, proof of love and boasting about you/us before these men ((23-24). So, a great text but not fair to the text to make this normative for the three individuals here.
4) Christians need to ask themselves if what they are doing will bring glory to God (cf. 1 Cor. 10:31). . My answer is ???? yup. Consider that passage too.
5) Christians should ensure that they don’t knowingly put an obstacle in anyone’s way (2 Cor. 6:3). I agree. Especially with Julie and Phil!.
Thanks for the verses. I hope you spent time with the texts I listed and considered them.
In the Strong Name of Jesus!
KC
KC, so you’re saying, under the banner of “do not judge…” Julie Roys and her investigative team, (or any other investigative journalist) should NOT accurately report on the fraud, sex abuse, nepotism, greed, etc that’s taking place in our churches and Christian organizations? If you wish to bury your head in the sand, go ahead, but right is right and wrong is wrong! And Christian pastors and Christian organizations are to “be holy” (separated) for God is holy and He commands that of us, His people.
I for one, am thankful to Julie Roys, her team, and those who come forward to speak to her, for their courage and taking a stand on what’s right and what’s not. Thank you Julie.
ROCHELLE BHARATH,
No I am not saying that and I am not burying my head. This article is not dealing with all the issues that you have listed. These sins have gone on since Genesis. These past three articles in particular and the online videos have concerns at a Biblical level. I appreciate Julie’s ministry, but I do not agree with everything she says. The sin of accusations of people fawning over MacArthur has gone on here as it does with Mrs. Roys. You have every right to appreciate her ministry. But I won’t bury my head and I will post questions as regards to Journalistic integrity plus subjective experience and then drawing conclusions. It isn’t about being right. It is about examining and testing as the Bible commands us to. Blessing to you, ROCHELLE BHARATH!
You did a great job exposing Mr. Johnson’s dishonesty. Irrefutable in my mind. If I’ve learned anything at all since my salvation it is this…Calvinist’s have an answer for EVERYTHING and it often leaves them defending things that cannot be defended! That said, it is folly to believe YOU are in some way “restoring the Church”. Nonsense, you’re a Journalist, no gifts of journalism I have seen in the scriptures – so regardless of your motives, you are not doing the Lord’s work via secular avenue, sorry. But you are gifted in pointing out the duplicity of these men.
Blessings
Brian, many of us think Julie’s work is well done, good, and faithful.
If there is no shame in owning three houses, receive millions of dollars in royalties and compensation then why not just declare them not only to GCC,GTY,TMS,TMU members but to the public ? It is dishonoring to God, it is shameful, it demonstrates a glaring love of money, it is off in any pastoral standard. What JM is saying is that he is called to ministry and to hidden wealth. so how is he now different from prosperity preachers who claims the same ? Having both sons in boards, daughter employed, son in law milking questionable contracts just seems obvious, isn’t it ?
Julie, please dig into the compensation of the board members, even exit packages and you will know why they all “vote” to give JM and Johnson the outrageous compensation packages.
JM, you honestly want us to believe that your two sons who recluse themselves during voting dont exert any pressure on the board members when they would steal investor’s money ? Why they are even present in the board is highly questionable.
Jm is looking for another virus to double their attendance.. the audience applauded and laughed ? Now, thats sick !
“Woe to you who are rich” – Jesus.
Regardless of the clean reporting by those like Julie Roys and others John MacArthur continues portray himself as a very righteous man reaching out to others. So sad to see that Steve Lawson seems to play into this. https://www.gracechurch.org/news/posts/2117
I live in Utah where leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach it is wrong to criticize them.
“It’s wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even in the criticism is true.” – Elder Dahlin H. Oaks, Apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being interviewed by Helen Whitney.
It is a sad day when I see Pastors who claims to be men of God essentially behaving like leaders of a known cult. I fear that on Judgement Day, it will be a very sorrow day for these two men. ????
MacArthur and his enablers have told multiple outrageous lies over the years about his alleged gridiron greatness, from claiming to be an All-American halfback while at LA Pacific College (LAPC), which in MacArthur’s words “had a pretty extensive football program,” to being recruited by several professional teams, to being asked while he was supposedly a seminary student to replace future hall-of-fame wide receiver Paul Warfield for the Cleveland Browns.
Objective timelines, along with details of the football program at LAPC and MacArthur’s actual contribution to the team, make these claims laughable in their audacity, but not for what they say about MacArthur’s shameful, entrenched character traits. For instance,
“1960 Los Angeles Pacific College Yearbook
The first practice was held at night on the field of a local playground with no lights, and only six men. Gradually a few more turned out, but at no time did the number swell to more than a dozen or so… Many of the players saved their own money to buy helmets and other necessities. [7]
John said he was named to the All-American squad as halfback. In his junior year, he had 1 carry for a rush of 3 yards and played 3 games. Other players included halfback Vince Meyers with 14 carries for 168 yards and 5 games, and halfback Dave Raines with 53 carries for 314 yards and 5 games.”
The quotes above, along with other documentation about this, can be found in an excellent article here: https://www.gatekeepersonline.com/post/examining-john-macarthur-s-football-claims
Perhaps Phil Johnson should get busy creating some letters and PDFs from the 60’s to back up MacArthur’s outlandish lies.
Questions on the following quote:
“In the year ending 2012, GTY paid John MacArthur $402,444 in compensation for working 20 hours a week.”
Is this from what aspects of GTY? His books? What are the exact payments for with GTY? You are correct that sermons are the churches material. What about books, study guides and any written materials. Do you have this information?
Section 201(b) of the Copyright Act of 1976 states, “In the case of a work made for hire, the employer or other person for whom the work was prepared is considered the author for purposes of this title, and, unless the parties have expressly agreed otherwise in a written instrument signed by them, owns all of the rights comprised in the copyright.”
Are the books through GTY or GCC or as staff at TMS? Are you aware if this agreement has been handled?
KC… I don’t have the time to answer all your questions. But if you read carefully, I state the facts I know. The $402K was MacArthur’s compensation and benefits from GTY for 2012. Royalties are not part of the GTY salary, but in addition to it. No one from GTY, GCC, or TMS has revealed the contracts governing royalties, so your questions would be better directed to them.
Julie, you do not have to answer my questions. I’m just asking these questions. I am wondering if the same law that applies to the church applies to Seminaries and other non-profit ministries.
Questions on the following quotes (2)
“Johnson said nothing about MacArthur donating the Bible in his 2014 statement. And after examining TMUS’ 990 tax forms, it’s clear why he didn’t. In 2014, MacArthur apparently hadn’t yet given away the Bible. From the first part of 2012—when MacArthur was given the Bible—through June 30, 2015, there are no large, non-cash donations of “historical artifacts” reported on TMUS’ 990s.
However, on TMUS’s 2015 990 tax form—the year after MacArthur came under intense scrutiny from bloggers for his large GTY compensation—it shows an “historical artifacts” donation worth $210,000.”
Do you really really think Macarthur is worried about bloggers? Is that his pattern of behavior? Why hasn’t he responded to you? Do you know if Pastor John MacArthur ever did not intend to give the KJV Bible as a gift to TMS? Your article suggests that His motives in donating the Bible to TMS because of scrutiny. Has he or anyone close to him testified to that assertion? These are fair questions. If not one would logically wonder the motives.
Eric S, very well stated! I am in complete agreement. Thank you for your boldness!
oh oh Lisa went potty too
Questions on the following quotes (3)
“ Johnson said elders at the church suggested MacArthur take 10 cents on every dollar for the cassette sales, but MacArthur declined to do so.
“That’s the amount I’ve heard—10 cents a tape—which sounds like not much,” Johnson said. “But when you’re selling, you know, 10 million tapes, that’s a million dollars that he decided to forego right away.”
However, giving a pastor royalties on sales of his sermons is forbidden by the IRS, according to Michelle Adams, a nonprofit attorney specializing in Christian ministries and churches.”
Those are Phil Johnson’s comments. Do you have proof that he ever did take $$$ for tapes? Did MacArthur take money for his sermons/tapes or not?
This is just appearing to be “he said she said.” It seems both have made comments that are not accurate or uninformed. Unless you have the data he took money from his sermons/tapes/CD/MP3 or podcasts. Clearly, MacArthur taking royalties on cassettes of his sermons would be an abuse of the law. But the intellectual property issue also raises another question.
What if material was written during GTY orTMS hours? Does that intellectual property laws fall under the same domain?
I think you missed the point. Johnson said MacArthur didn’t take royalties as a sign of how magnanimous MacArthur was. I was simply pointing out that it’s not magnanimous to forego taking something that doesn’t belong to you.
Response to Julie’s response…
“JULIE ROYS
MARCH 1, 2021 AT 11:20 AM
I think you missed the point. Johnson said MacArthur didn’t take royalties as a sign of how magnanimous MacArthur was. I was simply pointing out that it’s not magnanimous to forego taking something that doesn’t belong to you”
-My response
Julie, I didn’t miss the point. I connected that dot. My point is being magnanimous is subjective. Also he was using it as an example. Which according to the Law is null and void. But you did not state that he did or did not receive money from his cassettes tapes. However, immediately you state, “ Clearly, MacArthur taking royalties on cassettes of his sermons would be an abuse of the law. But the intellectual property issue also raises another question… On whose time did MacArthur write all his books, study guides, and commentaries?”
(unless you have evidence of Pastor John taking 10% of his sermons in audio form there is a problem). Within the context of the interview with Justin Peters …(I think he should interview you as well) Phil was attaching motives to John not having filthy lucre heart in regards with the distribution of his sermons.
My question I’m response is…
Does that intellectual property laws fall under the same domain of a church vs. separate entities such as Grace To You and The Master’s Seminary? BTW, several books were written by MacArthur and the faculty of the Master’s Seminary, including the Study Bible. Does that material fall under the same law and jurisdiction tax wise? To be crystal. If the work for materials were assembled, written, prepared, edited during Grace To You time and the Seminary hours do the same intellectual property laws apply?
Another great article. I think Charles Spurgeon’s Sermon from 1914 says it best, “Let a man examine himself.” The word is forcible. Let him make inquisition into his own soul as to whether all is right or not. Let him search diligently, tracing out every symptom that looks unfavorable, if, perhaps, that symptom may reveal the truth. Let him dwell upon every dark side or ill-looking spot, if, perhaps, those dark signs should mean more than is apparent on the surface. We are not to trifle with ourselves by making a superficial survey. Let a man examine himself as does the dealer in precious metals when he thrusts the ore into the fire, knowing that only the gold will come out, while the dross will be consumed. Put yourself into a crucible! Heat the furnace of examination seven times hotter than before, for since your heart will, if possible, escape from knowing the truth, be resolved that it shall know it, and the worst of it, too! Let a man review, test, prove, search, try! In all the strongest words that I could find that means the fullest scrutiny, would I put the language of the Apostle, “Let a man examine himself.”
So my prayer is that GTY folks will examine their own hearts and by the power and conviction of the Holy Spirit will acknowledge if they have transgressed and will repent by the grace of our Lord which we serve. We will all be judged now or later by God. Nobody gets away with injustice because we serve a righteous living God.
amen and amen. thank you
Agreed
Well Blessed I for one am up for uncle phil to be devoured ……. Julie on the other hand can be raised from the dead because she has the faith as do we…..
Now then concerning your comments
1) There is no fight just because one is exposing the other , uncle phil is doing all the flailing about all by himself
2) What does devolving mean?
3) “devoid of the spirit” ? Which spirit are you talking about? Because the Holy Spirit that I know about absolutely
loves when there is obedience to God’s Word for example EPH 5: 8 – 13
“For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:(For the fruit of the
Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and TRUTH;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have
no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather REPROVE THEM. For it is a shame even to
speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by
the light: FOR WHATSOEVER DOTH MAKE MANIFEST IS LIGHT. Julie’s blog is that you ?
4) Notice it says ” And have no fellowship …….” You see johnny and uncle phil and justin have fellowship
together IN THEIR WORKS OF DARKNESS not my works of darkness but theirs.
5) Don’t get confused and think we are talking about what THEY do in secret because what they ACTUALLY do
in secret is a whole new subject that is yet to be explored.
Everything that we are talking about is all out there all over the place for anyone to see that wants to.
6) BITING AND DEVOURING ONE ANOTHER ?
This means that there needs to be an “ONE ANOTHER ” in order to be part of one , I for one can testify
that I am in NO WAY a part of johnny and uncle phil , they are not going to get a bite of me and neither do I
even want a nibble of them (YUCK)
Like Philistines they may consume one another ………
HEY EVERYBODY ARE WE IGNORING KC ? OR SHOULD I COMMENT , EITHER IS FINE WITH ME, THANKS
Go for it. Attack the substance. Crying from the rooftop. I’m not above being questions or challenged. I don’t think it matters. I think legal minds, Julie, Phil and John know. But maybe someday it will all come out. It is fair to ask valid questions. But unlike about with those who do not agree. Can we do better and more biblical and deal with the issue and stay away from calling people names? Address the subject at hand not the one who is or has legitimate questions. Scriptures are clear. It is unwise to pronounce judgement at this time.
Hi Everyone , I feel convicted in my heart because I said above that “I for one am up for uncle phil to be devoured” I am sorry that I said that without an explanation . Any excuse is a lie because excuses ARE lies.
Are we not to love our enemies? I know that I am to love my enemies because:
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; THAT YOU MAY BE the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”
Mat 5:44-45
Dear CRYING FROM THE MOUNTAIN and others.
I appreciate your comments and humility below (CRYING FROM THE MOUNTAIN)
I am wondering how these men are our enemies? If feels like these are our enemies by some of these posts. Many have hammered the last nail in the coffin or have rendered a verdict in the case by these reports.
Honestly, Mrs. Roys’ articles have brought less conclusions and more questions. Both sides of the issues has laid out a lot of things to question, pray about, check our presuppositions at the door of this issue and some of the comments made by Christians to other Christians are just sad. It is wrong to call Julie Roys, Phil Johnson or John MacArthur agents of satan. People attacking various beliefs as an example, calvinism. We all have different hermeneutical approaches to Biblical conclusions (I.E. Theological Views) on things in the Scripture. I did a word search this morning. The only one with the initials J. C. was Jesus Christ and not John Calvin. We may agree or disagree with John Calvin’s Biblical conclusions, however he has put in his time in understanding the Bible.
Jacobus Arminius had a theological view with 5 big ideas referring to how one comes to Jesus Christ. He differed on Grace and Predestination. Those who believed his interpretation of the Bible were known as an Arminian, or Arminianism. After Calvin died, those under his tutelage wrote 5 points in response. I personally agree with John Calvin in the Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) but I am not a Calvinist. I am of Jesus Christ. My prayer is that we all are of Jesus Christ with a variety of biblical thoughts. But stop the name calling and categorizing people. You shut off a discussion and thus create an argument. Doing the same thing as Julie Roys and Phil Johnson. But do it Biblically. I have a lot of questions on both sides of this issue. Crying from the Mountain said, “ HEY EVERYBODY ARE WE IGNORING KC ? OR SHOULD I COMMENT , EITHER IS FINE WITH ME, THANKS”. I’m all about that! Let us be gracious and loving. Amen?
Even when reporting “truth” we must be obedient to to the scriptures. It says “Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.” (1 Tim 5:19) We have no idea if these things are accurate or not and I have never heard of Julie Roys before. Evidently she’s a journalist, but that means nothing. She could be someone who just wants to destroy the church.
If you really want to be godly, go read the Bible on the subject of slander. Proverbs 11:9 ESV “With his mouth the godless man would destroy his neighbor, but by knowledge the righteous are delivered.”
I’m well acquainted with those Scriptures. If you read my articles, you’ll see I have far more than 2-3 witnesses, plus documentation. Let’s not forget 1 Tim 5:20, urging us to publicly expose an elder who is sinning or Eph. 5:11, encouraging us to expose the fruitless deeds of darkness. For more, read my article on the case for Christian Journalism located here:
https://julieroys.com/about-the-roys-report/
(Goto this link and click on “Free Download” halfway down on the right.)
Julie, with all respect, would you please explain how what you have been doing for the last 2 years or so “Restores the Church” as your descripting of yourself states?
Sorry, but I son’t see any “Restoring the Church” happening.
Has your Church grown in numbers with people who used to attend HBC?
I see are people who leave all Churches entirely, turn their backs on Jesus, or become sarcastic when they comment to someone who says they are staying at GCC, HBC, or wherever.
And I see Churches like HBC not baptizing nearly the number of people they once did.
So what has been “Restored”, Julie?
Kristy,
Restoration doesn’t happen overnight. Sometimes there’s a period of exile while people come face to face with their sin, and those wounded by toxic leaders heal. I certainly can’t make these things happen on my timetable or anyone else’s.
We are experiencing a period of judgment right now. You can accuse people like me who expose the corruption and abuse. But the blame for what’s happening belongs squarely on those who have abused their power and position.
That said, I think our Restore Conference was incredibly restorative, as is our current series on leading well. Many of our podcasts are extremely helpful too. I’ve heard from many people who have found healing through listening to Diane Langberg’s interviews, for example. I’ve heard from church leaders who say they’ve really benefitted from the interviews centering on creating good church cultures, as opposed to toxic ones.
I pray the church makes the necessary changes it needs to thrive. I see pockets of that happening. But unfortunately, the evangelical industrial complex still dominates the church landscape and wields a ton of control. Until that’s gone, I don’t think the major restoration that needs to happen can happen.
As someone that was very deeply hurt by a church in ways I will no longer reveal publicly, I felt very much alone for a long time. I had no idea there were others who experienced the same abuse.
Did not the Good Shepherd search for the one lost sheep?
Kristy, might you consider that many people who have read the reports of the train wreck that happened at HBC are, in their own lives, praying for and attempting to minister in fellowship to those people who “didn’t see it coming?” They’re not likely to be the same ones you are reacting to here. But they’re out there.
I encourage you to be gentle with yourself in this time. You say below that you never took your eyes off Jesus. That’s great! Let the Good Shepherd continue to speak to you and work His healing. The Body of Christ needs all believers, with their gifts and callings.
Julie, that looks like an address on your local drive instead of an http link?
Thank you Rob. Goto this link and click on “Free Download” halfway down on the right.
https://julieroys.com/about-the-roys-report/
Julie, my impression from all your writing is that you are convinced John MacArthur is walking in sin, hiding his sin, and is a fraud or false teacher. Is this an accurate assessment of your working thesis? Also from what I read, you feel that all of these ministries that you personally have nothing to do with, should open up all of their books and give you full disclosure and answer every question you have. Is this accurate? Finally, by not answering your questions you feel that clearly John MacArthur and others must be hiding information from you to protect themselves. Is this accurate?
P.S. I just subscribed to the Roys Report and the web site immediately asked me to donate money!!!!!… IN FACT, the money request just popped up again a second time. Maybe Julie Roys should be investigated too!
Feel free. But unlike GTY & GCC, I’m fully transparent with how I spend donors’ money:
https://julieroys.com/2019-2020-financial-statement/
William, what a ridiculous thing to say…I can’t believe you actually took time to comment and these are your two comments. Wow. Julie is reporting on the fleecing of the sheep. This reporting is unfortunate but necessary. People are told to tithe and give to God and then before you know it the pastors and their cronies are living lifestyles far beyond those who gave. When you take someone else’s money in the name of God it’s a sacred trust. And if they think there’s nothing wrong with their behavior then to Julie’s point, be fully transparent. There’s evil here and she’s shining the light on it. Wake up or keep being a sheeple and keep being fleeced…
You may want to click the link. If you scroll down, you’ll see how she spends the money. Like all of it.
I have no way of checking to see if what you allege is true.
As the saying goes, the truth lies somewhere between two opinions.
As for me, I ask you, “How much is the salvation of a soul worth?”
How many people are turning away from GOD because of ongoing bickering and backbiting in the Church?
How many seekers are turning to Islam, Mormonism, atheism or JWs because they see love and kindness in other religions, even atheism?
ALL people should keep their eyes on Jesus and their ears on the Word, and use the discernment GOD gave them to check and make sure the Word they hear is the Truth.
If you don’t, you are likely to focus on man, not GOD, and pick at other’s sins while ignoring your own sins.
Kristy,
Julie is presenting facts that can be easily verified by examining “Grace To You” Form 990.
Here’s a link to there 2014 IRS 990 filing – the last one they filed.
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/953846510/2016_07_EO%2F95-3846510_990_201506
Scroll down to pg #8. You’ll see Johnson salary of $195K & Big Mac’s salary of $246K. Big Mac is listed as working 29.90 hours/week at GTY. Not sure when he sleeps – lol. These salaries are just for GTY & don’t include Church, Book or Speaking revenue/salaries.
There are at least 3 other family members listed on the board. Two of Big Mac’s sons & Luis Contreras whom I believe is his son in-law.
Also scroll toward the bottom, Pg #48-50. Schedule L, Part IV – Titled: “Business Transactions Involving Interested Personnel”. There U will see Jeremiah Johnson & Luis Contreras listed as family members along with 2 companies (The Welch Group & Dorma Productions) getting paid $292K & $97K. Both companies are owned by Big Mac’s son in-law Corey Welch.
If they have nothing to hide & are not ashamed of their incomes & nepotistic practices then why not continue filing a 990 or be transparent with how they spend sheeple’s donations?
I for one don’t appreciate “Christian” organizations using the name of Jesus to fleece His sheep.
“How much is the salvation of a soul worth?”
Luke 15:1-10
Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
3 So he told them this parable: 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Kristy,
You state “As the saying goes, the truth lies somewhere between two opinions”. That is not biblical. The Truth is not between others *opinions*. If it is just between opinions, it wouldn’t be Truth.
What Julie Roys has presented here are facts about how money is being spent that has been received from God’s people, His Holy Bride. Why does John MacArthur need to live in such a fashion, so far above the lifestyles of his constituents? Why does Phil Johnson need to attack Julie’s character rather than allowing John MacArthur to answer for himself? Is John not above being questioned?
Think about this.
“How many people are turning away from GOD because of ongoing bickering and backbiting in the Church?
How many seekers are turning to Islam, Mormonism, atheism or JWs because they see love and kindness in other religions, even atheism?”
Let’s leave the church out of this for a minute in order to cool things down.
Let’s say in an apartment complex with many children and they are at the pool most days. Someone notices that there is a man also at the pool daily. They start to notice that it looks like this man is taking pictures of the children with his phone. They don’t say anything but start to watch him. They notice that he also starts to engage in conversation with some of the young girls. Innocent enough right? But he starts to get bolder, taking more and more pictures thinking he is being discreet. They start to investigate, see where his apartment is and what’s the name on the mailbox.
They go to the website that lists registered sex offenders and find his name and address, and start telling the parents of the children at the pool. Some quit bringing their children to the pool, some just when he is there, others move out of the complex.
Who is to blame for this exodus from the pool and even the complex?
The sexual predator?
Or the person that is protecting children?
How many more are walking away from Christianity or want nothing to do with Christianity because of the all these evangelical leaders and their scandals, their hypocrisy, and the enabling of their corruption by the brain-dead sheep followers?
The answer: A whole lot more.
Then you all in their the political posturing and genuflecting towards a certain political party and their Cheeto Jesus idol that was in the White House for the past 4 years.
I’ve been a regular reader of Julie’s blog for about 5 years now, but Im not sure Im going to continue reading anymore, as the sarcasm and snark by Julie’s defenders, followers, of fans(?) has gotten a little hard to swallow…cleaning up the church with anger, bitterness and vitireol? Where is THAT in scripture? Snarking at people who have a different opinion from yours in the comments section instead of discussion of the topic..Im going now, snark away..
SMK… I’m sorry that some of the discussion has degenerated into sarcasm and snark. People are angry and sometimes that anger can cause us to say things we shouldn’t. It’s hard for me to keep up with moderating all the comments. But let me just urge all of us on this page to speak the truth in love. We may have different perspectives, but we are not each other’s enemies. And even if someone is our enemy, Jesus still calls us to love.
Guilty, I am sorry.
I appreciate you saying that. We all say/write things we later regret.
Agreed.
SMK, I will try to keep my sarcastic thoughts to myself in future comments. I would, however, ask you to consider that there are weightier matters than sarcasm that must be addressed.
Will Phil Johnson confess that he deliberately exposed Julie to harm in an act of revenge for her making a fair and valid inquiry? Will he admit that he went to significant lengths to fabricate documents for the purpose of posting Julie’s home address to his readers?
Phil Johnson’s appeal to Justin Peters does not come close to an answer for this very serious matter.
SMK, regarding your claim of “anger, bitterness and vitireol”, I’m not sure what or who specifically has offended you. But, in light of the circumstances, your comments could easily be interpreted as victim-blaming. I would humbly request that you carefully and prayerfully consider the facts Julie has presented in her articles. And may God bless you.
SMK .. “Im not sure Im going to continue reading anymore, as the sarcasm and snark by Julie’s defenders, followers, of fans(?) has gotten a little hard to swallow”
DUH
HINT for SMK: don’t read the comments of OTHERS as they are NOT Julie’s words
THANK YOU Julie for your work exposing soooo much garbage residing in HIS Church
KEEP LOOKING UP
2 Cor 13:14
Eric S, do you think that Phil Johnson’s unbiblical behavior response to Julie commendable, such as doxing her? Do you believe that name calling is ever acceptable, especially from one who is an elder in a church?
Furthermore, Julie has not addressed any problems she has with MacArthur’s teaching. She is addressing the duplicity between his teaching and his behavior.
Julie, thank you for doing the hard work. Alarms started sounding when I listened to or read MacArthur, Peters and Rosebrough but I didn’t know why. I kept seeing your name smeared and know when a women is called Jezebel the mob has been sent, and I wanted to know why. That is how I ended up here.
Isaiah 58:5-14
Is such the fast that I choose,
a day for a person to humble himself?
Is it to bow down his head like a reed,
and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him?
Will you call this a fast,
and a day acceptable to the Lord?
6 “Is not this the fast that I choose:
to loose the bonds of wickedness,
to undo the straps of the yoke,
to let the oppressed[a] go free,
and to break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the naked, to cover him,
and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
8 Then shall your light break forth like the dawn,
and your healing shall spring up speedily;
your righteousness shall go before you;
the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9 Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
you shall cry, and he will say, ‘Here I am.’
If you take away the yoke from your midst,
the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
10 if you pour yourself out for the hungry
and satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
then shall your light rise in the darkness
and your gloom be as the noonday.
11 And the Lord will guide you continually
and satisfy your desire in scorched places
and make your bones strong;
and you shall be like a watered garden,
like a spring of water,
whose waters do not fail.
12 And your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt;
you shall raise up the foundations of many generations;
you shall be called the repairer of the breach,
the restorer of streets to dwell in.
13 “If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath,
from doing your pleasure[b] on my holy day,
and call the Sabbath a delight
and the holy day of the Lord honorable;
if you honor it, not going your own ways,
or seeking your own pleasure,[c] or talking idly;[d]
14 then you shall take delight in the Lord,
and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;[e]
I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
“ ULIE ROYS
MARCH 1, 2021 AT 11:20 AM
I think you missed the point. Johnson said MacArthur didn’t take royalties as a sign of how magnanimous MacArthur was. I was simply pointing out that it’s not magnanimous to forego taking something that doesn’t belong to you.”
My Response part B.
This is as subjective as I can be and using this as a Follower of Christ and not with Journalistic motives.
This next point is subjective, however outside of ministry hours. Which, ministry includes Sunday services, sermons, Bible study meetings, hospital visits, counseling, phone calls, traveling, responding to emails, spending time with worship team to coordinate music with the message, turn in outlines, making myself aware of all the activities of the church as a shepherd, elder meetings, deacon meetings, staff meetings, administrative meetings, leadership development ( includes staff and non paid church leadership I.E, Elders) and prep time for just those meetings. For those of you who are Pastors know exactly what I mean.
The passion of a Pastor/Preacher is to read, study, learn, exegete and prepare a message believing that the meaning of the text will transform lives. A Pastor always brings books to meetings because he may have a few minutes to read or study before his meeting starts or if the person he is meeting arrives late.
Veracious reading, getting to the minutia of the text, Seeing Jesus in the text. Transformative. My point is this. Those who love the Bible… Can not get enough! You have to fight, lose sleep, be creative to make time to prepare a sermon message. Many nights that can be all-nighters. You can not sleep because you can’t get enough out of the text. Yes Julie is right normal people do not work that many hours. Pastors aren’t super Christians but they aren’t normal. There is this drive to dive back into the Word, languages, diagraming sentences, finding the main verbs, correlation with other glorious texts/doctrines, commentaries, systematic theology, biographies and other general information. Why? So that the Pastor may be able to exegete everything he faces through the lens of scripture.
Point is that all that ministry, radio ministry, conferences, incredible amounts of requests and a college President. John MacArthur is either wired similarly or he is a liar and is just a puppet that just regurgitates all this work of other men. So that, the MacArthur Empire will grow in filthy lucre.
Seeing what going on with John M. is just another example of how Christian leaders are no different from secular leaders. I grew up in the church and after being a member of Harvest Bible Chapel and Willow Creek (under Bill Hybels) I have given up on organized church. I havent given up on God but I have on churches.
Alan,
There are plenty of churches around that preach and live the truth of the Bible. Many of these churches aren’t megachurches. Feel free to join a smaller congregation who love the Lord, who hear his word, who are strengthened by the Gospel, and who aren’t pastored by a celebrity.
Julie,
My question with the financial statement requests to Grace Community Church. Is the church obligated to release financial information from a reporter or someone who is not a member? If so can you show me where it is required?
KC,
Why would a church be unwilling to show God’s people where the money is going? Even secular institutions and organizations are required to make their financial information available to shareholders and the IRS. Is the church somehow above the law?
Yes. That above reproach thing KC always seems to ignore.
CM,
No I have been working on addressing that topic However, you have yet to address any of my questions, in fact not one of the passages I listed have you engaged with. Your logic is what about this text. What you do is proof text and take the text out of context to prove your point. Try addressing my question, but more importantly the texts that I listed.
CM you have reminded me twice about responding. Maybe you should. You have yet to respond to the text
Listed. I did that with your texts which you totally took out of context.
Mr. Skyler Frost,
That is not the charge here. The Church has zero obligation to share its financial records with an outside reporter. Grace Community Church documents makes that clear. “ We teach the autonomy of the local church, free from any external authority or control, with the right of self-government and freedom from the interference of any hierarchy of individuals or organizations” The full document is below.
As a pastor I wouldn’t share my churches financial information with a journalist halfway across the country. The issue is not transparency but walking circumspectly. The full document is below.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/static.gracechurch.org/membership/WhatWeTeach.pdf
KC — I will try to answer your question as I understand it and if I mis-state anything I invite correction by those who may be more knowledgeable. The church(GCC) volunteered to make their financial statements public (upon request) when they sought and gained accreditation from the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability(ECFA). That’s part of their accreditation deal. But when Julie requested their financial statements from ECFA, GCC would not provide them and subsequently canceled its membership/accreditation with ECFA.
Sounds to me that they want the ECFA Seal of Approval (for PR reasons) which would have mandated much more financial transparency. Which would mean anyone could have asked ECFA for their financial statements.
So they ran away like scared little girls.
Also, most of the big prosperity gospel ministries that MacArthur regularly goes after are NOT members of the ECFA for that very same reason.
The irony here is rich.
My question is why would that have to be coerced to do so? If they wanted to be above reproach (a concept you seem to ignore), they would be transparent as glass.
One has to understand that no one who values attending GCC would dare to ask for a copy of the financial information, first you have to write a letter then you have to appear before them to answer a host of questions such as why, why, why, why and why. If the church is transparent about its finances then why is it such a well guarded secret ?
You should be asking how many church members knows their financials.
Within the halls of GCC, GTY, TMS, TMU only the FOJ’s (Friend of John) roam freely and you would do well not to cross. Student, teachers, members who dare to question, disagree let alone expose issues are easily isolated, failed, bullied, intimidated and eventually kicked out of the property.
Its JM who personally decides who stays and who goes.
James,
When did that happen to you (first you have to write a letter then you have to appear before them to answer a host of questions such as why, why, why, why and why. If the church is transparent about its finances then why is it such a well guarded secret ?) ? What did the board say exactly? What was the tonality in the meeting? I have and many others I know have roamed the halls of TMS and GCC. I’m concerned that you experienced that. I still have concerns about a reporter being able to request information about a church financial report. My chairman said that legally there is zero obligation to hand over church information to a non-member.
KC, are you even a member of GCC ? do you know GCC financials ? have you ever even tried to get it ?
Look at just what happened to Dr Sam Horn. Not only did they forced him to resign they had to smear his good name as well. I rest my case.
If GCC/TMS/TMU/GTY is prepared to accept money from non-members then they should be willing to give out financial statements to non-members.