Did Liberty University mishandle Title IX sexual assault allegations? The school’s former spokesman says it did—and he joins Julie Roys in a special edition of The Roys Report to tell his inside story.
Lamb this week filed a federal lawsuit against Liberty, accusing the school of firing him for raising objections to Liberty’s “mishandling” of Title IX allegations. In this podcast, Lamb describes what happened in the October 4th meeting he had with Liberty President Jerry Prevo and other top officials, which led to Lamb’s firing.
According to Lamb, not only did he raise the issue of Title IX violations during the meeting, Lamb also confronted Prevo for trying to use the university’s think tank—the Standing for Freedom Center (formerly the Falkirk Center)—to “get people elected.” This led to a heated confrontation in which Prevo called Lamb a “liar” and demanded his resignation, Lamb says.
Lamb also reveals how Liberty failed investigate the claims in a Title IX lawsuit by 22 women, but instead hired a lawyer focused on only “mitigating” the consequences of litigation.
He also talks about what happened behind the scenes at Liberty when I began investigating the 2005 gang rape reported by a former student—now Jane Doe #2 in the Title IX lawsuit. According to Lamb, Liberty officials were focused on trying to prove the victim wasn’t on Liberty property when the crime occurred, rather than seeking justice and restitution.
Note: This podcast presents our complete and unedited conversation.
Scott Lamb is the former senior vice president of communications & public engagement for Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. He’s also served as director of theological research for Albert Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, and is a four-time biographer with Harper Collins. His latest book is The Faith of Donald J, Trump: A Spiritual Biography. Lamb also is a bivocational Baptist pastor and father of six.
JULIE ROYS, SCOTT LAMB
JULIE ROYS 00:03
Did Liberty University mishandle Title IX sexual assault allegations? The former spokesman of Liberty University says it did. And he joins me today on a special edition of The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Scott Lamb, the former Vice President of Communications at Liberty University. He’s also the plaintiff in a federal lawsuit. That lawsuit accuses Liberty of firing Lamb in retaliation, after he objected to the school’s handling or mishandling of sexual assault cases. So Scott, I know this has been a crazy week, and you’ve been talking to a lot of media, but I really appreciate you taking the time and talking with me. So thank you.
SCOTT LAMB 00:47
It’s my pleasure. After all, you and I know even if the world doesn’t know that we have had lots of communications about these very things that specifically to the title IX for all of 2021. And so I can’t think of anybody better to be on the podcast with. And to you who is really no flattery intended, but literally who has pushed the truth into the executive suite of Liberty University. And so I just like to say publicly, I’m thankful for that. Well, thank you, Scott. I appreciate that. And, and let me just say, I mean, you’re in a really difficult position right now. Because you’re not popular with either side, I think, of this Title IX allegations and this controversy. You have Liberty that obviously is upset with you because you filed a lawsuit, you’re calling them out, you have the Jane DOE’s in that lawsuit saying, “Hey, you are on the enemy side for a long time. Why didn’t you come to our rescue a long time ago?” I’m just gonna let you upfront address that. How do you respond to that? Well, I don’t know the Jane DOE’s personally, except for the one that I know, through you, who I have met personally through you. And so what I’d like to say to that is that, I’m going to have to let my actions toward them speak louder than words or not really toward them, but really toward their, their legal counsel. To be honest, I don’t even know how many of them are actually part of the lawsuit, and part of you know, under legal counsel with Jack Clark, and to those who are just, I would just say, I’m in consultation with Jack Clark, and I’ll be giving him things that I know, you know, telling them things I know, I’d be willing to go and testify in a court of law, if it goes to that. So I’m going to have to let my actions speak louder than words, I know that I have a lot to offer them that can be beneficial to them, not just legally, but hopefully. Look, when an institution isn’t acting right. I’m feeling. this myself, you start to think to yourself, Am I crazy? You know, I mean, is it just me? Or I mean, are they really acting this way? And you wake up every morning thinking, maybe I’m just making something of this. And I don’t know if they feel that way. But I know I felt that way sometimes over last year. I think that I can bring from the insider perspective that no, if you ever felt there was stonewalling I can, I can validate that from the inside. Now the institution, of course, you know, is not going to be a fan of mine. I should say this. The institution, the leadership of the institution, some of the executive leadership of the institution, some of the board of trustee member, some of the executive committee members, I’d like to state once again that I am the best friend that Liberty University has right now. I am pushing this forward because I am a friend of Liberty University for what it could be. Not what it is with this situation, not what it has been over the last year to 20 years. I’m the best friend they have. So to the institution and to the alumni, to those who remember the dream that was Liberty University at its best, I’m the best friend Liberty has right now. And I invite others to join in. To those who are victims of sexual assault and that have either joined the lawsuit or perhaps they haven’t joined the lawsuit, but they still are victims, and they’re out there. You know, I cannot apologize on behalf of the institution. I’m not in the institution anymore. I longed to have apologized, I longed to have had the executive leadership say, Hey, here’s a strategy. Tell our insurance company to just go park it. Okay? We’ve got the funds, we can take care of this. Insurance company go park it. Executive Council, you know, we’re not dismissing you, but you know, we’re not going to follow your counsel. We’ve got some explaining to do here. We’ve got some forthrightness to do here. We’ve got some repentance on this particular issue. Now my lawsuit goes into more than just Title IX issues. But on that issue alone, I mean, some of the other things, there’s maybe not necessarily a victim. I mean, there’s shameful things done, you know, there’s unethical things done, but there isn’t a clear victim and that’s where this whole issue became so burning in my heart because there actually are people with a narrative of pain. And to the extent that I could not possibly, It did not seem like I could move the institution towards what I thought was a Rachael Denhollander actually getting transparent here, which I thought we were going to be doing. And then I found out we weren’t, then the pain grew into me. I got one daughter, five sons. Either way, whether a son or daughter gets sexually assaulted. But you know, I picture that as it happening to my daughter. There’s nothing I would do, other than just try to get this moved forward. And if something like that ever happened to my daughter and on behalf of the fathers and grandfathers and mothers and grandmothers that have daughters, on behalf of the daughters themselves, who had these things happen to them. You know, the easiest way to become a millionaire is to become a vice president at Liberty University and stay there for 20 years. You don’t have to stay there 20 years, to be honest. But you know, I’m 47, could have retired a multimillionaire with a salary and benefits and package and the tuition. I mean, it’s amazing how much money you can accumulate, probably if you don’t have to pay tuition for your kids, and you get paid a salary. I was only there since 2018. Before that I was a by vocational pastor. As recently as 2008. I made $30,000 a year. I cleaned up Section VIII property for a landlord in St. Louis $10, cash on the barrel, put food on the table for my family. I don’t come from anything, and I’ll go back to nothing in terms of money, but you got to do what’s right. The easiest way to enrich yourself is to not get fired from a vice presidency of Liberty University. Now Liberty University will say that I was fired with cause job performance.
JULIE ROYS 06:34
Let me talk to you about that. Yeah. Because in your lawsuit, you talk about this October 4th meeting. You say that meeting became heated. And it was because you were raising issues about the Title IX allegations about the misconduct, they say and let me just read Liberty’s response. They say, We would like to make it clear that Lamb’s advice on how to publicly respond to the Jane Doe Title IX lawsuit played no role in his termination. His termination was the result of a meeting about a recent review of the area under his management. So Scott, I want to know what happened in that October 4, meeting?
SCOTT LAMB 07:14
A half-truth is still alive. You know, when you get called into a meeting, and there’s a reason why it’s called and then there’s the real reason why it’s called. And so the point is, there was to two issues that were brought forth. Both of those issues, actually, I’ve documentary evidence to show that guys, those aren’t actually issues. The President himself is who I report to, not this internal auditing committee. And so the internal audit was bringing some issues of concern about some memes of the Standard for Freedom Center had put out. Maybe these are getting close to violating 501c3 law. Okay. The only problem is the President as it came out in Politico yesterday, the President in a recorded phone call I had from July, and Liberty is spinning this one as well saying Oh, he didn’t mean that nothing but. Look I’m the senior vice president in charge of the Standard for Freedom Center. He’s the president, when the President calls me and has a conversation, the purpose of which is to talk about the past, present and future of the Standard for Freedom Center. What kind of value has it had, is it having, and will it have? And when he makes it clear that the value is found in getting the “right people” elected? Well, sir, we don’t really do that. We’re a 501c3., not a 501c4. He goes, Hey, look, there’s ways to there’s ways right, I know there’s things you can do as a 501c3 to influence elections, I get that. We think we’re already doing a lot of those. But he literally was talking about going out knocking on doors and those kinds of things.
JULIE ROYS 08:37
Did that come up at the October 4 meeting?
SCOTT LAMB 08:39
Yeah, that’s, that’s where it got contentious. Because he’s taking the audit. You know, these young guys who did the audit looked at our media, social media, and had some room for that, you know, hey, here’s some concern, you might want to get a little bit away from the line of crossing the 501c3. Or there was a few that they thought actually did cross the 501c3. Alright, fine. We can we can dicker about that kind of stuff. But I say the elephant in the room here is that you guys think that we’ve done bad 501c3 things violations. But the President himself as recently as July, told me that the main thing is to become for Liberty University, the center needs to become what Ralph Reed. What does Ralph Reed do guys? He gets people elected as a 501c4, right? He’s a Christian guy who knows how to get people elected. He’s really good at it. He said the center needs to be known throughout the nation for actually delivering on what Ralph Reed promises but sometimes doesn’t deliver on. And what does that mean Julie? Now you back it up even further after the GOP primary here in Virginia. He told me now he denies it. And this is when he started calling me a liar in the meeting. He told me with a smile on his face, but in in the office of the president, okay to his senior vice president. Well, the value of the center to me is going to be found in November. I mean, like, here in Virginia, we’ve got a gubernatorial election, you know what I’m saying? Well, does he mean? What does he mean by that? That? Well, I mean, how does the value of the center have anything to do with the gubernatorial election in Virginia? Last August, when he got in here, he took me aside, I didn’t know him hardly at all didn’t know his personality. But you listen really well to your boss that’s part of you know, don’t hold on a job is to try to figure out how your boss communicates. He, again with a smile, said it on his face, but he goes, You know, I don’t know much about the center., but I do know that there’s an election in November. Speaking of Biden versus Trump, and he goes, I guess we’ll try to figure out the value of the Center to the university, you know, depends on who wins an election, you know, again with a smile. But, you know, when you’re in the office of the president, you don’t like just assume that everything is a joke. You know, people can say things with a smile and actually mean it. Well, the problem is, we don’t do campaigns and elections. And he never told me, you know, to go out and actively violate 501c4. He just told me that the value of the center is found in getting the right people elected. Fill in the blanks as to what he wanted me to do. I’m not sure.
JULIE ROYS 11:06
So did you discuss the Title IX mishandling as well? Tell me about that.
SCOTT LAMB 11:12
The thing is, I’ve been discussing that all spring. Like this 501c3 dance is small potatoes. You know, I mean, this keeps on pushing back against that kind of idea. And hey, we’re doing good job over here. But the Title IX is where it all gets at, you know, because you and I had all that experience in the spring with Jane Doe Kathy and getting her documents. And why was that such a hassle? And I went into a lengthy discussion here on our local ABC affiliate. But it was it was painful for me. I’m not saying that as a victim, I’m just saying, in a situation within the institution, I’m just a Coms guy. If I don’t know the facts, I can’t communicate about something, or I can’t know, well, this is something we can’t communicate about yet, or I don’t know, I’ve got to get the facts. And to even get those documents to the Jane Doe took two meetings, and then a third meeting to get them to her.
JULIE ROYS 12:07
And this was her own personnel file. This was a woman who said that she was gang raped in 2005. She’s just trying to get her own personnel file from Liberty, which, you know, implicated the university in knowing about the crime and everything. You’re saying they didn’t want to release it.
SCOTT LAMB 12:25
What I’m saying is we did release something to her. I do not believe humanly speaking, that she would even know about that other pile of documents, if it wasn’t for me, having called the meeting, and found out that there’s other documents she doesn’t have. I don’t have recorded. I mean, I recorded a second meeting. But I came to an awareness that she didn’t have all the documents. And I said, Wait, so she doesn’t even have these? Is she entitled to these? Yeah well she hasn’t asked for them. I mean, this is going back to 2005. And this lady has been at our doorstep apparently. The only reason she’s at my doorstep is because I’m the media and Julie Roys has showed up. See that’s where I’m saying I wouldn’t have even known about her had not been her working with you or you working her. And so that actually was a catalyst for me actually having my eyes open to the idea. Look, I was under no thought that there hasn’t been sexual assault. And I looked at the records and it looks like Well, we’ve had some and things. I worked under the assumption that the Clery records were completely accurate, and maybe they have been in a legalistic sort of way. I don’t know, I’m not a lawyer. I don’t have Clery ACT you know, expertise here. I’m not accusing the University of fudging the Clery records. I’m actually not. What I’m saying is the spirit of the law versus the letter of the law. You and I were involved in a conversation with the General Counsel, it was off the record. I was in his office here right next to him. And, you know, I just amazed at the dance that we were going through to basically say that she was not raped on campus, which, technically, as you know, from that conversation was true. Because at that time, right off the tunnel on which she was grabbed, so she was grabbed, and that was a crime, but the rape happened off, you know, into the wooded area.
JULIE ROYS 14:20
Okay, let me just give some background because we’re getting into again, this 2005 gang rape that was reported, yet Liberty says was never reported. In fact, I don’t think they’ve ever admitted that it was reported to them. I reported this story in June. This this victim came to m. Actually she came to me months before and took months and months to research this story. But Liberty was actually fined by Clery by the Department of Education for not reporting this properly. So there was some violations there but they’ll never admit, or at least haven’t admitted to this point that she was actually gang raped. And like you said, not admitting it happened on campus. You were my point person for that story. And you helped coordinate some things. I can’t speak to any off the record conversations I had. You can say, from your perspective, what happened behind the scenes, because you’re at liberty to do that, but I’m not. So I’m just curious behind the scenes, what was the attitude towards this woman, who now more than 15 years after the fact, is raising, I still never have even been acknowledged by the university that I was raped? No kind of, you know, they even provided counseling to her. She says, under false pretenses. She thought she was going to a professional counselor, she’s ending up going to the wife of a VP, you know, at Liberty University. None of this has ever been acknowledged by the school or done anything. I’m bringing this case to you with all sorts of documentation. What is the attitude of the school to this victim, who again, 15 years later, still traumatized?
SCOTT LAMB 16:06
So you’re undercover drug dealer and you’re really trying not to let it be known that you’re actually a police officer. So somebody’s got a suspicion that maybe you are, alright, that maybe you’re not fully with them. And other people are, you know, they’re kind of naive. So you know, with them, you get a lot of juice and others you don’t get as much juice. I’m walking around. I didn’t consider myself a mole or undercover police officer, but I’m going into rooms. Some people are more naive than others. And when I’m asking questions, some people were more you know, it just naturally by God’s you know, how they got me I’m just more or whatever, maybe sin but more guarded, you know, immediately. With them. I got nothing, you know, but with others, you know, there’s a more transparency. I will say that my colleagues, um, you know, in meetings like that, they never spoke about those things except with an empathy of these things were terrible. I mean, these things that happen, so I never heard anybody say, you know, we don’t believe these things to be true. What’s being said. However, there’s always more to the story that we were in the meetings with, and so, can I have that information? Okay. Well, you say you, you believe that something happened, right. But then there’s more factual information. Can I have that? And that’s where the hostility came in, in some of these meetings where they antagonism came in like, what do you need to know that for?
JULIE ROYS 17:24
But are you saying David Corry, Jerry Prevo, they believe the victims? They believe this happened?
SCOTT LAMB 17:29
Here’s the thing. Acting president Prevo is not in these meetings, all right? Perhaps Jerry Falwell Jr. might have been in some of these meetings but acting president Prevo is doing something different in his leadership style. So he was not present in those meetings. I addressed to him about the Title IX issue one on one as it relates to the Baker Tilly investigation that Sir, I don’t think that they’re actually investigating that they’re interviewing with the victims. I get that sense. I’ve got people you for one. I got people asking me, reporters asking me and I don’t think that they’re actually and that’s going to be bad. So I sent memos. I sent, you know, emails, I talked I text, and it just wasn’t with Prevo, it was with other executives. And the pushback wasn’t so much, well, we don’t believe them. The pushback was in March, you know, I’m in a meeting with some executives. And one of them says, you know, the thing about that Baker Tilly? We just need to get that thing done. It’s gone on long enough. This is in March, and it’s gone on long enough. It’s a waste of time. It’s a waste of money. And I said, but they haven’t actually, from what I’m hearing, they haven’t actually interviewed any of the sexual assault cases yet. Well, you know, it’s just gone on long enough. Well, the peer pressure internally then is what’s wrong with Lamb that doesn’t realize, Oh, yes, it’s gone on long enough. Spent enough money done enough things. I didn’t think it had. And so I conveyed that even to the acting president Prevo on one meeting, one, you know, in passing conversation I had, sir, I’ve been interviewing with Baker Tilly, you know, upwards at that point, about 15 hours, I think 10-15 hours. And they’re asking a lot of questions that go beyond Jerry Falwell, Jr. and, you know, ask things even about your tenure. And I’m honest with them, and I’m kind of concerned (chuckle chuckle). I’m kind of concerned about my job, because they’re asking me questions about you. And even your oversight of Junior or lack thereof. And I’ve told them what I thought. And so that’s how candid I have been with these people.
JULIE ROYS 19:38
What did you think?
SCOTT LAMB 19:39
He said, Well, you just continue being honest. Nothing’s gonna happen. You just be honest. You tell him what you think. Okay. I will, you know, and because the documents said, don’t worry about anybody’s reputation, you know, which I think is the basis of actually getting the truth. You know, don’t worry about the reputation of the school. Past/present leadership, board members, executive leadership. I took them at their word. I was told by a former employee not to take them at their word. They said, this is a witch hunt. You will be you will be terminated or you’ll accidentally get other people terminated. They said, you know, look, truth is important. But you know, you might want to self-preserve. Well, I didn’t want to self-preserve. So starting in January and February, I gave him the interview sessions. And then ancillary to that, I began hearing from journalists things as gangster capitalism, Julia Roys, and others, were hitting us with questions that were obviously coming from victims. And I thought, Well, at first I thought, well, Baker Tilly is, you know, they’re gonna answer these questions in the report. And then there was one Politico wrote an article, I think, April at the beginning of April, and they actually said, we’re hearing reports that, you know, all the victims haven’t been interviewed or something to that effect. And I was given an email from the general counsel with the Baker Tilly lawyer on it that said, hey, look, you need to respond to Politico on these three things. And one of them was about the timeline. They said, here’s what you need to tell him. And it was Baker Tilly is investigating all matters and all people that have entered, but you know, it was saying no, we have and we are. And I on that email immediately. I remember I was on a Saturday afternoon I was in the parking lot of Target, you know, with my thumb’s trying to get the email out. But I said, this isn’t true. First of all, I’m not a spokesperson for Baker Tilly. I’m not going to run PR for them. But second of all, it’s not true because I’m getting reports that they have not been contacted. If that’s wrong, tell me.
JULIE ROYS 21:40
And who’s asking this who specifically?
SCOTT LAMB 21:42
This is an email trail with me and the General Counsel Liberty University, David Cora. Yes. And the lead interviewer for the local boots on the ground lawyer who was hired by Baker Tilly to interview and who had interviewed me. Yeah, and so I’m in an interesting position. Not only am I getting interviewed, but I’m also on these emails with external counsel.
JULIE ROYS 22:01
Right. And so David Cory is saying to you, say that the Baker Tilly investigation is interviewing these women. I know Jane Doe 2 on the lawsuit that was brought by the Jane DOE’s; now it’s up to 22 women, accusing the school of mishandling their Title IX cases. I know that she contacted Baker Tilly through the public portal, she told me she has never been contacted by Baker Tilly, has not had a single interview and let’s look at it. Baker Tilly is not a sexual, you know, allegations of Title IX investigation. It is a forensic. It’s a accounting forensic kind of firm. It has nothing to do with this. It has no expertise in this area. ,
SCOTT LAMB 22:43
Well, o that was just one anecdote. And that was just one that I happen to have an email I don’t have it with me. But yeah, it was point number three, you know, you need to hit back at Politico. They need to correct that because all people that have entered the portal have been or will be, you know, interviewed, but you and I know as of today they haven’t.
JULIE ROYS 23:02
So did that come up? Did this come up in that October 4 meeting?
SCOTT LAMB 23:06
Well, no, the October 4 meeting was Bang Bang let’s start screaming at Scott shouting at Scott telling him to shut up. And calling him a liar. He told me to shut up five times call me a liar several times, which I had.
JULIE ROYS 23:18
When you say called your ally you talking Jerry Prevo called you a liar?
SCOTT LAMB 23:21
Yes. Which I had all my phone evidence of him, not only that I wasn’t lying, but that he was lying. I couldn’t pull it up because we’ve been told as we enter the room, everybody needs to turn their phones off. I’ve been there three years and nine months. I’ve never once been told to have their phones turned off. As we sit down, everybody needs to turn their phones off. Alright.
JULIE ROYS 23:43
So they that October 4th meeting dealt with the 501c3e status, the Falkirk Center, getting people elected that the investigation that it wasn’t
SCOTT LAMB 23:55
Well I brought the investigation to the table because as soon as he’s in why since will sir. Look, you’re telling us that we’re in trouble for doing some memes. You told me to help get people elected. I never did that. So you told me to help make sure that Glenn Yaki. I’ve never said that. You know and so that’s when he started calling me a liar. And I can be called a lot of things and have patience for, but a liar? I’m not going to put up with that. So I said, Sir, not only am I not lying, but I have evidence. Well I couldn’t pull up on my phone right then and there. My phone was shut down and stuff like that. And he said, you hear this? He is calling the president of this university a liar. And I’m thinking well, if the shoe fits wear it, you know? I mean, literally, I have the evidence. What do you have? As recently as July he told me that my department was running on all cylinders, great job, on a recording, great job stellar performance and keep it up all this kind of stuff. He had just authorized Ryan Helfenbein and I to launch at least for a one year contract, a live national daily 28 minute radio program of like on terrestrial radio, okay and said that A fantastic job! I can’t wait to hear it. Tell him that it was my idea to get started. Well, okay.
JULIE ROYS 25:06
So was there anything specifically about the Title IX though? I guess that’s what I’m wondering.
SCOTT LAMB 25:11
So that’s when I held up when he threatened the job. That’s when I held up the whistleblower retaliation form that I had been given in January. I’ve been walking around with in my pocket, basically, you know, the last few months. And I said, Sir, you, you really need to back down right now. Because even what you’re saying about, you know, is turning your resignation. And, you know, I’m the president, I could fire you, just using that language here with me, as I’m bringing up concerns about the institution concerns I brought up to Baker Tilly, you’re doing something wrong just by threatening my job. And he’s like, I’ve never signed that. I’m like, sorry, you signed it right here. You know, he looked at it. Well, okay. Okay. You know, but I said, you know, you need to just deescalate. So we need to get the general counsel in here. The General Counsel came in, and I said, General Counsel, here’s the deal. You know, he’s threatened my job, he’s threatened to fire me. And I said, right now, I believe I have a case of whistleblower protection, you know, and we’re talking about things. I said, there’s something going on here at the university, that is either incompetence, or nefarious. It’s either in competently telling the world that we’re doing something and we’re not, or it’s actually really purposely doing that. Each man and woman at executive leadership will stand before God as to whether they were incompetently or purposely trying to cover it up. You know, and I’m not alleging that any one particular person was this way or that way. I’m just saying that the collective system as a whole, some, you know, just think, Well, eventually the truth will come out, you know, and some actually, perhaps, are working with external counsel and the insurance company, to have a plan for basically mitigating the risk, to lessening the risk of the payout. Because I think some of those people actually know, I think some things happen. So I think they actually know things happen. But look, we got 2.3 billion in the bank, we know how to take care of these things.
JULIE ROYS 27:03
So there’s no, from your perspective, the women haven’t been interviewed. The allegations have not been looked into. The only effort that Liberty from what I’m getting from you the only effort that Liberty has made is to mitigate the damage.
SCOTT LAMB 27:21
That literally is what was told to me by the external counsel on the lawsuit, heading into Friday morning, October 1, when there was a speech by acting president Prevo did give from the stage of Convo in response to that the Teal Ribbon campaign. And essentially, I worked for seven hours through the night from 10 o’clock at night all the way to 5:30 in the morning to craft what turned into an 8-page memo, that line by line by line took apart the planned script that our general counsel in consultation with the external counsel had given him. It lacked empathy, it was patronizing, it would have caused hurt. One phrase after another would have just it would have gone viral, you know that the victims would have taken apart line by line and it would have made those who are already righteously angry, just catastrophically angry, okay. And it would’ve taken those who are indifferent to this situation and actually made them activists I believe, and I said, Look, we’ve waited this long to say something I wish we hadn’t. I’m 100% in favor you saying something, but this speech, these planned remarks, not only lack the right tone and empathy and I’m not talking about malarkey words that pretend like you have empathy, I’m saying real words. I’m not an expert in this and I had said, you know, look, we need to bring in like a Rachel den Hollanders people who deal with this all the time, and they can instruct, collectively as an institution, we’re not even using the right vocabulary, you know, and through, not trying, or just we haven’t taken the time yet. I don’t know what it is. But we need to bring in people that can help us to actually get our mind around it institutionally. I’m not saying nobody had their mind around it. But anyway, back to the point of that speech. Worked all the way through the night took it apart. And then one particular set of lines said, you know, once I heard about this lawsuit, I became very alarmed. Well, that that was like, What do you mean, once you became aware of this lawsuit? That happened in July. I mean, all the way back in August, there was political articles about our former First Lady and things like that. There were Title IX implications on the first day of your office, but the script Now admittedly, he didn’t use the script, you know, but it was given to him and it was planned for him to just say things extemporaneously. But he said, in the script, it said, once I found out about these things, I became very concerned. And I hired a law firm to look into these things and get to the bottom of these things, and give some recommendations. Now you and I know that if we’re sitting at ten thousand 18-20 year olds who are actively passing out Teal ribbons, what that sounds like is Rachael Denhollander in and Boz Tchividjian are coming to the rescue, or they they’ve been hired. Wow! You know? What I know that is because on that email is the external counsel. What I know is well, first of all, I know it’s not Baker Tilly. So what other law firm? I’m looking around. I mean, what other law firm was he talking about? Is he talking about the law firm on this email? The law firm on this email was hired in conjunction with our insurance company, Julie? Hmm, they’re not looking into this. So I say that in the memo, and I, I just let it all hang out like this is a lie, okay? You know, we can’t say this. And I wish it was true, but we can’t say it. And so I send a memo. I get little bit of one response from the Liberty side that said, hey, you know, I’m going to talk to Prevo about that before Convo. And he round up just saying 60 seconds and something it almost sound like he had forgotten to say anything. But, you know, he said 60 seconds. And at least it wasn’t a grenade. I mean, it was a grenade to the hearts of those who were in pain, but at least it wasn’t as bad as the as original script.
JULIE ROYS 31:00
Well, it wasn’t lying outright, and who crafted that?
SCOTT LAMB 31:05
That’d be our General Counsel and his office, you know.
JULIE ROYS 31:09
So David Corey crafted that speech?
SCOTT LAMB 31:11
I don’t know if he put the words together, but General Counsel put them out to the group email and said, you know, let’s work on this. But here’s, you know, here’s a draft. It’s been it’s been looked over by external counsel. I don’t think they looked over it enough. Not with my eyes. The external counsel. I think they were willing to let him say those things, because or maybe they were just busy.
JULIE ROYS 31:30
But they know that’s not true.
SCOTT LAMB 31:32
Well, here’s what I’m saying. The following morning about, I don’t know, half an hour before Convo, then the external counsel. Now she’s one of the top, you know, number one ranked, as it says on our website, litigators for higher ed, Title IX lawsuits. Okay. So they got good counsel. Okay?
JULIE ROYS 31:52
This is the one defending them against the Jane Doe lawsuit?
SCOTT LAMB 31:55
Yes. And she goes, Hey, look, Scott has provided excellent analysis. He is correct. And just to clarify, and I’ve got my colleague here, you know, we together need to clarify to you guys at a point that what Scott said, we’re not here to look into the situation and see what happened to whom or by whom. That is not why we’re here. That’s an investigation, you know, action. We are here to mitigate, litigate and mitigate the risk to the university. Of course, you are! You know, what idiot didn’t know that? Right? I mean, like, I don’t hold them against it. That’s their, their job as a lawyer, they were hard that, you know, I personally wouldn’t want to do that. But you know, that’s their job. But to, to even think that you were going to stand up in response to teal ribbons and speak to the crowd and the live stream and convey something which clearly was saying, I’m looking to get to the bottom of it, and find out what happened, and mete out punishment to those who might have done something. You know, that is not what the law firm that he hired, you know, was there to do. I brought that out to them. On the Thursday night to Friday morning, I’d already had a whole entire day of work, but all the way to 530 in the morning, I would hit the send button, you know, and, and then Monday morning, on one hour’s notice, I was called in the president’s office. Called at nine o’clock. President wants to see a 10 o’clock in the morning, I’m there we’re talking about memes. You know, that I’m called a liar. And it escalates from there. And Tuesday, I was offered severance and your kids can still come here tuition free. Got to think about the kids. I said, there’s no way I’m signing a non disclosure guys. I mean, you know, take the 30 pieces of silver and go stick them where the sun doesn’t shine ‘cause I am not signing a nondisclosure and spend the rest of my life waking up remembering what I didn’t bear witness about, you know. I’ll go bankrupt before I do that, and I might go bankrupt with my legal fees. Anybody got some grass I can cut this summer? I mean, you know, seriously, but Wednesday I was terminated. That was at bang, bang, bang, and they hired an external PR firm.
JULIE ROYS 34:06
Are we gonna say who this is because Save 71 LU is reporting that the firm they’ve hired is Kairos, which is Johnnie Moore, Johnnie Moore used to be what Chaplain there at Liberty, then went on to found his own PR company. He also was the head with Paula White of the Evangelical Advisory Council,. But I know Johnnie Moore, because he’s the one caught on a hot mic with James McDonald. and they’re actually joking. This is back when James McDonald sued me. Because simply I hadn’t published anything at the point he sued me. I was simply looking into an investigating allegations of misconduct by him. He hired Johnnie to come in and we have this hot mic recording of them and James McDonald is joking about crude headlines about me having an affair, supposedly with some CT editor. But then the worst of it is they’re joking about putting child porn on the computer of Harold Smith, who at the time was the CEO of Christianity Today. And Johnnie Moore along with James joking about this. And then at the end says, When James says he’s calling off his plan, Johnny says jokingly, well, if you if you need somebody else to help you out with that, you know, I know a few other people. I mean, , it’s shocking to me that this happened. It’s shocking to me that Johnnie Moore continues to hold any position in evangelicalism after this. But my understanding, and I’m just going to ask you point blank, is it true that Johnnie Moore has been hired?
SCOTT LAMB 35:45
You know, I can’t be the source on that. I mean, I, I can either confirm or deny. The reason being that, you know, there’s just people that work there that I don’t ever want to say anything that ends up getting them fired, you know? I mean, I was fired. That’s my business, but other people are in different situations. So I will say this, I’ve had a national journalist talk to me about something that she heard because she was gonna put me on her show. And she did. You know, Shannon Bream. And she had heard something from the Liberty University’s PR team, you know, external PR team. And, you know, I can’t confirm it there, you’ll have to confirm it somewhere else. But David Corey puts out certain types of press statements, and they’re very lawyerly, you know, the ones that have been put out this week with me, you know, he’s looking for his 15 minutes of fame. Honestly, if you know me, I love to write books for a living. The worst part about writing a book, which is why I get co authors, usually that love to be on TV and radio. The worst part about writing book is you become a public figure every time the book is released, you know. Especially books I like to write, you know about public figures. And so if three years, nine months of being at Liberty, we’ve had lots of people come through that are famous, and I’m standing there talking to them, and all of a sudden, I see the photographer getting ready to snap a candid picture. I’m like, Excuse me, you know, I just I get out of this screen. It’s just not my thing. I’d rather be a private person. The radio thing was going to be the biggest stretch of my life to go on national radio, and I had to pray about that. It was like a year . . .to whether I actually wanted to do that. But 15 minutes of fame, that’s what I’m after, I suppose is what they said yesterday.
JULIE ROYS 37:20
Does that sound like Johnnie Moore more to you?
SCOTT LAMB 37:22
That does not sound like David Cory. And the person, you know, I don’t know whose responsible. I can’t confirm who’s responsible that but that doesn’t sound like David Cory, you know, to sort of, you know, dig into the ribs or something like that. That’s okay. I mean, there’s two types of PR people in the world. You know, people who just say, it may take a lot longer to get the job done today by just telling the truth. It’s a lot more anguishing because sometimes journalists they don’t care about the truth. They’re just looking for some, you know, what, not You of course, but you know, they’re, everybody’s cynical,. They expect there’s going to be spin and more spin. I just lead with the truth. Now, in an institution, you’re not even always unbound to speak. And so at some point, the silence becomes a complicity and falsehood. And so last year before, I never, I don’t think I’ve ever shared this publicly, but last year, about two months before three months before Jerry’s resignation, I was thinking seriously about having to resign, you know, with the KKK mask and one just crazy the fights for the New York Times. And there wasn’t, there wasn’t any the blur between work and home became nonexistent. So it’s seven days a week, the, you know, a lot of things that Jerry did was on the weekend, when he had extra time and other stimulants to, you know, provoke him to, you know, do crazy things. So, anyway, I thought about it. I had three kids in college at the time, and I thought, maybe I’m here to shape him, you know, guide him and I did a lot of that with Jr. But it became less and less effective. And to the extent that was less and less effective, that, you know, he wasn’t really listening to the council to, to behave. Then I thought, I’m just gonna have to probably resign and so I’m having those conversations, COVID hits, lots of stress on everybody, you know. The kids are all at home, 24/7 and, other things happened, And then and then one day, I get a call, and he’s been put on leave. Three weeks later, he resigns, and I honestly thought that the, the Calvary had arrived, you know, the instabilities of, of my former boss, who I got along with on a personal level, you know, this isn’t anything personal, but I thought the Calvary was arriving.
JULIE ROYS 39:49
Prevo was the chairman of the board when everything happened. I mean, can can we possibly believe that he didn’t know?
SCOTT LAMB 39:56
Well, then he knows a lot of stuff and if he’s, you know, going to come in And then he’ll be especially poised to help reform things because he knows so much. Or it’s the other way around. He knows things and he was complicit in it. I didn’t know which way it was.
JULIE ROYS 40:09
Let me ask you about the trustees because they’re meeting this week right?
SCOTT LAMB 40:13
Their meeting this next week. I call on them to actually, I would like just one thing. I mean, one thing came out of that meeting that they actually hire Boz Tchividjian, and Rachael Denhollander to look into the Title IX. That would just be a first route. And maybe a second first route would be to release it a press statement that says, We will never prosecute somebody for breaking an NDA. You don’t have to go back and look at all the NDAs and one by one contact them. Just say we promise as an institution, we won’t, we won’t prosecute anybody, for a breaking NDA. Just those two things alone, you know. Look, how can the institution claim that they’re, they’re being nice that they’re being transparent about things where they won’t even tell Julie Roys who their press guy is? I mean, you’ve been asking for two weeks, who’s the press guy? Who’s this press guy that keeps getting quoted? The spokesperson, if you can’t even be transparent about who your spokesperson is, you got a problem! Why? Why can’t you tell the world who your spokesperson is?
JULIE ROYS 41:10
And do you find that the trustees generally know what’s going on? Or are independent enough to do anything?
SCOTT LAMB 41:18
I’ll answer in the words of Jerry Falwell Jr. and he said this on enough occasions that I can nearly quote it. Well, they’re all good people. And they’re all most of them are friends of my Dad. I’ve known them since they’ve known me since I was a young kid. I think the world of but most of them are, are asleep. Most of them are out to lunch, you know, two different metaphors out sleep lunch, whatever. Most of them are just out to sleep, whatever, and they’ve been through so much. They saw how we almost went bankrupt all those years. They just thankful that we’re not going bankrupt anymore. After all those years of every time they get there, it’s a gut wrenching, Are we going to go bankrupt between now and the next board of trustees meeting? That was the largest portion of the group. He said, but that doesn’t matter. It’s the executive committee, but not really the executive committee as a whole, just a few of them. And, in particular, my boss is Jerry Prevo. And as long as I keep him happy, then I keep the executive committee happy. And that’s all that really matters. And then he said, and I’m just lucky that my boss lives in Anchorage, Alaska, you know what I’m saying? And most of us would probably like to have a boss that live in Anchorage, Alaska. This summer, I actually would have rather had a boss that didn’t live in Anchorage, Alaska during the summer. It would be nice to have one here in Lynchburg. But, uh, you know, all things being equal, most of us, human nature being what it is, we’d rather have somebody not looking over our shoulder. And there’s some crazy idea that Sachs doesn’t want the board of trustees, the accrediting agency doesn’t want the board of trustees to be really hyper vigilant. There’s also an independent Baptists culture. I understand it well, that makes fun of Southern Baptists who have pastors who are dominated by their deacons. That’s the thought, but independent Baptists, we don’t get dominated by our deacons. Thus saith the Lord the man, you know, don’t touch the Lord’s anointed. There’s a culture there. And a lot of these guys are pastors, and they’ve been pastors and in their own churches, they didn’t like to be bossed around by a board. And Jerry didn’t like to be bossed around by a Deacon board, and Jerry Falwell, Sr. And they all said that it’s a joke, you know, Deacon. So that’s what you know, Southern Baptists. That’s why they had the little small churches. The deacons rule the pastor, and that culture goes into the I believe the culture goes into the Board of Trustees you show up for a lot of years. We’re not really here to boss you around. We’re just here because the government says you have to have a board of trustees. I’m alleging that that’s not that’s not a crime, okay to have a culture.
JULIE ROYS 43:34
They do have fiduciary responsible.
SCOTT LAMB 43:36
They do have fiduciary responsibilities. And as long as everything’s going fine. It’s just when there’s a mission drift, and the CEO needs to be reprimanded. Well, then it becomes a matter of, well, who actually is the real functioning board and it’s the executive committee. Well, then you just got to hope.
JULIE ROYS 43:52
Who’s the Executive Committee?
SCOTT LAMB 43:53
It’s on the website. I mean, It starts with Harty Ganey and Tim Lee and goes down you know.
JULIE ROYS 43:58
But those are the ones actually running the university, you say.
SCOTT LAMB 44:01
But as Jerry Jr. said, but not all the executive committee, just some of them and not really even then.
JULIE ROYS 44:06
And Prevo was on that executive committee.
SCOTT LAMB 44:08
Prevo was the chairman of the executive committee. So and that’s what I told Baker Tilly. You know, when he said, well, in addition to Jr who else was to blame? I said, You mean like, you know, floating around? I mean, like floating around most of us just kind of did what Jr. told us to do, but if you’re talking about like who has oversight overseeing Jr, it was the Board of Trustees, specifically the executive committee, specifically Jerry Primo.
JULIE ROYS 44:29
So if Baker Tilly finds that Liberty University had acted inappropriately, that under Jerry, there was financial misconduct, which there are ample allegations that there was in a lot of evidence, it appears that it was that goes back. There’s no way that Jerry Prevo himself is not responsible for that because he was the chairman of the board. This is where I’m a little bit just puzzled that he hasn’t been called more to account for this.
SCOTT LAMB 45:00
Well as my lawsuit alleges, which I need to keep on referring back to the lawsuit, that that’s where the muscle is going to come in. The lawsuit alleges that Liberty University has been behaving very badly at the top levels of leadership. So I’m not trying to implicate one particular person. I’m just saying fiduciary responsibility rests on the board of trustees. There’s a great book out there, Mission Drift. I almost treat is like the Bible, it’s always great anecdotal information from various institutions, even when I’m familiar with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and how that board had been wrong and how Mohler cleaned it up and things like that. But it says in every, every year, and every decade, the board either is drifting, or they’re staying fast. And most people think, well, it’s the liberal faculty that determine, you know, we’d never don’t get the faculty tenure, because that’s where the liberalism creeps in. You know, I think that’s a fruit of mission drift, not the root, I think the root is the book says mission drift. It’s the board, because the board is the one that governs the executive leadership supposed to go and says, in a Christian institution says, we need you to hold fast in your soul, not just legalistically speaking, in your soul, actually be attached to Christ, want to do what Christ wants you to do in your soul, executive leadership. Which means the board has to do that. Now what takes you away from those things, many things can take you away from that. But the scripture is pretty clear that the love of money is a root of all evil. And let’s just be honest, we’ve got a lot of money at Liberty University, Which is to say that we’re really, really good at what we do, which is delivering a product that people pay for. In this case, $1 billion a year of federal student loans helps them pay for that. And so we’re really good at delivering that and earning the money; $300 million in profits last year. Now, I’ve been at other institutions that have been in existence for 100-150 years, how much endowment you have. We’re up to $45 million. Wow, that’s pretty good. in this other institution, we got 11 million, which really means they’re a year or two away from going bankrupt. You know, if they have, you know, COVID shut down or something like that. 45 million, that’s pretty good. 300 million was added to the endowment last year. Right? So my alma mater at Southern Seminary, I think they got like 90 million. They’ve been in existence since before the Civil War, like 90 million in the bank for endowment that they’ve piled up, you know, nickels and dimes here and there. We put 300 million last year alone three times that. What gets us to that point? Well, it is a focus, I would allege as I lead my lawsuit, it’s a focus on that. It’s a focus on the bottom line. And they’re really good at. There’s nothing simple about focus on the bottom line, as long as you don’t actually lose the actual thing that you were trying to do. And I would allege and I would talk about it in a court that in various ways in various shapes and forms, there is a focus on growing the endowment up to like $6 billion of what the goal was. And that’s misplaced. I don’t even think Doc Falwell as much as he was worried about, you know, going out of business, not having enough money, I think you’d say, Whoa, we got enough. Now let’s get back to the original stuff here. I’m not saying he walked on water with everything he did and believed. But I don’t think he would have said, we got 2.3 billion, we need to get to six and then just pummel things into the ground in a way that drifts from the mission. That’s what burns me the most, is there so much resources here, that are either going to if the mission drifts and continues to be used for not the kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Christ, or they can be if we can pivot right now. But it starts with institutional and I’m not part of the institution. So I can’t make any, you know, big plans here. Like, you know, what we should do. You know, I’m not in leadership anymore. But, but we know what when you look at the seven churches of Revelation when they’re on the wrong side of Jesus, it’s always the same words, repent, restore, renew, revive, reconcile, restitution. I mean, it’s all those words, re- bring back to life by doing action verbs that start with the letters R and E, you know, getting it turned around, and this institution can do that. And that’s why I say I’m the best friend Liberty University has because I’m praying to that end. It starts with a very small group of people, though, not the 300,000 alumni. Now they need to put the pressure on that that small group. The smaller group is not going to listen to even a lawsuit. If they’re told that I’m a disgruntled employee. Liberal leftist media, you know, is tapping into me and my disgruntledness or something like that. Fired for cause you know, all this stuff. They’re not going to listen to it, but I pray that they will. I pray they will.
JULIE ROYS 49:47
Last question and we’ve already gone over time. And you’ve been very, very generous with me. But I just have one question that something that you’ve said to me in the past, is that Liberty, there are about 50 employees that just need to go now. And I know one of them, for example, I’m guessing, would be Laura Wallace, who was, she’s currently the head of human relations there at Liberty University. She’s the cousin of Jerry Falwell, Jr. And you even, you know, I don’t know if you can recount this story of a time that you were in her office.
SCOTT LAMB 50:27
She reached around without looking at the phone, picked up the phone with one hand, and pushed a button on a panel with about 20 buttons for the speed dial for Jerry to get his authorization or not on something that I was talking to her about. And I’m thinking wow, the you know. So to connect that to what I said about 50 people, when I go look, I need to stick with the claims in the lawsuit that’s, you know, there are systemic problems, I don’t need to focus on one particular person, I’ll let the board you know, start fixing things and and hopefully that’ll start right at the very, very top. And that would start in executive leadership. But for years, the LUPD reported directly to Laura Wallace and, and during so many of these cases that reported directly to Laura Wallace, Title IX violation cases, sex assault, I certainly don’t like that euphemism Title IX violations. No, it’s sex assault. Okay? Let’s just call it isex harassment, sex assault, rape. So as a reporter, I’m not making an allegation against her on any of that. I’m just saying, can we get to the bottom of what happened? Is that, you know, the documents are there. I don’t, you know, can we get to the bottom of what actually happened in just the cases that emerged, let alone other ones that people had had had something happen, but they’re never going to come forth about it. And I understand that their pain is too, you know, too much. And they’ve got, you know, they just don’t have clearance and they’re hard to do so. But yeah, you know, when you’re head of HR, and, and those groups report to you – LUPD security, that kind of thing. And you report directly to to Jerry Falwell, Jr. He called me last week.
JULIE ROYS 52:01
I heard that in one of your other interviews, yeah.
SCOTT LAMB 52:03
And he said that he was always kept in the dark about Title IX. That it just went right to David Corey and David Cory to the board.
JULIE ROYS 52:11
Jerry Falwell, Jr. is on the emails that I published of Jane Do 2. He’s on numerous emails. He was the point person. I don’t know how he can say that.
SCOTT LAMB 52:22
I said, That’s not true. I said that’s not true. You know, bu.,
JULIE ROYS 52:27
And Jonathan Falwell, who’s currently the chaplain there, he was copied. He was sent directly, not just copied on some of them. And I published those as well. He says he doesn’t remember ever getting them. But he neither one of them can say they weren’t. And Jerry Falwell responded to numerous ones.
SCOTT LAMB 52:46
Yeah. Well, there’s some splanin’ to do. You know?
JULIE ROYS 52:50
Yes, there is.
SCOTT LAMB 52:51
And I pray that can imagine we wake up a week from Saturday when the board is heading back out of town or Friday night when they’re back in town, and a press release comes out from Liberty University that says, We have hired in a very independent way, but you know, for her time or time is worth something, she’s got a family, we’ve hired Rachael Denhollander, and we’ve hired Boz who was a law professor here until just a couple of years ago. I mean, Box just gets back up to Lynchburg. We need your help for a task committee that basically has one function to hiring a third party, and then oversee them for us oversee that third party investigation for us, and then report. And say this on day one, report back all findings in a public document, a document that we made public, you know, do it.
JULIE ROYS 53:36
That’s what Bob Jones University did, surprisingly, did with the Grace.
SCOTT LAMB 53:41
I’m not one who wants to just burn money. But this isn’t burning money. This is making restitution. It’s not hush money, it’s not paying them up to put them under NDA. It’s, it’s bringing it to the light. And then when you find if you find something, then just institutionally say we’ve done things wrong, and, and to the extent that I’ve ever been a part, or perceived to be part of a conspiracy of silence, you know, I confess that before God. I know in my heart where I was at various stages of not knowing things, and then knowing things and then as soon as you know some things, timers ticking, you know. If you ever watch these movies where a guy is undercover as a drug agent, he goes home at night and he’s himself and he’s talking to his wife, he’s talking to his best friend over a beer and says, I don’t know how much longer I can do this. I mean, like, you know, you bump into people that you know, and they think you’re some evil monster now, you know. There is a really reality to that and there’s some people on the inside right now that that feel that same way. They’re like, look, the timer is ticking. How much longer can I go? Hoping of course that I think they were hoping like me that the investigation was actually going to blow some things open. And we could get beyond these things. That’s still possible. That’s still possible. I talked to somebody texted me last night who’s on the board. I’m not I’m not trying to try not to have any contact with the institution, right, you know, I’m in a legal thing. But they said, I’m praying for you. I’m like, Well, you know, pray that that real repentance and reconciliation can happen. I mean, this is a Christian institution. I’m a Christian. It’s not about my lawsuit, let’s not fixate on my one little man’s lawsuit. That’s not what this is really about. Think about the big picture, keep your eye on the ball when you go into that board meeting next week. I said, because things can actually change, if the institution wants them to. Think about how wonderful that would be in the year of Jubilee, to actually say, Well, that was where we pivoted away from things that had been built and created systems that are built and created. I pray that happens. Julie, I’ve taken enough of your time. Thanks for giving the opportunity to talk to your audience today.
JULIE ROYS 55:40
Thank you, Scott. I really appreciate you talking to me. And, and again, I’ve taken more time than we had anticipated at the beginning, but I do appreciate it. And I just pray that truth and justice will be served in the end.
SCOTT LAMB 55:54
I ask your audience to pray for Liberty University. Pray for Liberty University, please. You know, it needs it.
JULIE ROYS 56:00
Well, thank you. And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. If you’d like to find me online, just go to Julieroys.com. Also a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or now on Spotify. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, we’d really appreciate it if you help us spread the word by leaving a review and then sharing this podcast on social media. Again, thanks so much for joining me. Hope you have a great day and God bless.