How to Respond to Christian Nationalists

[00:00:00] Julie Roys: Christian nationalism has taken over large swaths of the United States, but is this movement really Christian? And is it possible to engage with a Christian nationalist in a disarming way that doesn’t end up in a fight? Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church.

[00:00:21] Julie Roys: I’m Julie Roys, and joining me today is Caleb Campbell, a one-time skinhead, who became a Christian. And for the last 18 years, Caleb has been pastoring a church in Phoenix, Arizona, a hotbed of Christian nationalists fervor. On this podcast, you’ll hear how Christian nationalism divided Caleb’s church and left him so wounded he had to take a sabbatical.

[00:00:42] Julie Roys: But you’ll also hear how God used this experience to soften Caleb’s heart and to motivate him to learn more about this movement and how to reach those ensnared by it. And if you’ve struggled to know what to think about Christian nationalism or how to engage with your Christian nationalist friends and family, you’re really going to benefit from this podcast.

[00:01:00] Julie Roys: I’ll get to my interview with Caleb in just a moment, but first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, The Restore Conference. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church.

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[00:02:16] Julie Roys: Again, joining me today is Caleb Campbell, pastor of Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona. He’s also a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary, and he’s the regional director of the Surge Network, an equipping and church planting organization there in the Phoenix area. He’s also the author of Disarming Leviathan, Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. Caleb, welcome, and it’s just such a pleasure to have you join me.

[00:02:41] Caleb Campbell: It’s my pleasure to be with you.

[00:02:43] Julie Roys: And it’s not very often that I get to meet my podcast guests in person, but I was able to do that when I was in Phoenix enjoyed lunch with you. And I thought we’d be there for maybe an hour. And we were there the whole afternoon talking, just had such a great conversation. So many fascinating things, hearing about your background and also about your insights into Christian nationalism. So so good. And I’m so excited that you’re going to join us for The Restore Conference there in Phoenix in February. That’s going to be awesome to have you there. And I should mention that your book, Disarming Leviathan, is our premium for the month of August.

[00:03:18] Julie Roys: So anybody who gives a gift of $30 or more to The Roy’s report will receive a copy of your book. So if you’re interested folks and getting that just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. So Caleb, one of the things that you mentioned when we were having lunch and you mentioned it briefly in your book, but I just thought it was so fascinating, is your background because you actually were a skinhead and now you’ve been a pastor for many years. How does someone go from being a skinhead to being a pastor of a church in Phoenix?

[00:03:53] Caleb Campbell: Yeah. That doesn’t seem to be the common track towards lead pastor, but it was that way for me. So I was raised in a politically and religiously conservative home. A lot of what I perceived religion to be about, especially the church we were part of, was about what you’re not supposed to do and being unstained from the world, which meant no drinking, smoking, no rated R movies.

[00:04:18] Caleb Campbell: And I remember as a kid,  junior high age, just seeing people’s behavior Monday through Saturday and then hearing the stuff on Sunday and thinking this stuff is not integrated. And so I, for a variety of reasons, just stopped going as much as I could. I’d get dragged every now and again, but it was just giving up on faith and not really interested in it.

[00:04:39] Caleb Campbell: And in high school, kind of sophomore, junior year, fell in with a group of neo-Nazi skinheads and found myself in that movement, shaved my head, the whole deal. And I didn’t go to college after high school, but after I had graduated in that season, 18, 19 started asking myself where are all the wealthy, successful retired skinheads?

[00:05:01] Caleb Campbell: So the ideology is white supremacy, and the neo-Nazi skinhead argument was white people are the master race and we’re going to protect each other. And we’re going to protect a future for white children. So we’re going to have each other’s back because we’re going to be successful and we’re going to be awesome.

[00:05:19] Caleb Campbell: And I remember looking around and be like the life path that my fellow peers, it doesn’t seem like it’s ending with success. And so what was being said and what was actually happening wasn’t integrated. And so I started just disentangling myself, not only from the thinking, but also from the community and was just floating, looking for core needs of safety, belonging and purpose.

[00:05:46] Caleb Campbell: And I was a drummer in a band, and we had an ad in the Phoenix New Times classifieds. This is back when you would put stuff on a piece of paper, a newspaper trying to connect with people, the dark ages. Yeah, way back then. And a woman from Desert Springs Bible church was dialing drummers and had called me and said, would you come play the drums at our church?

[00:06:09] Caleb Campbell: And so I did. And I remember thinking, I should do good stuff for God. Cause I still had a sense that God existed, and I got in the Rolodex. I got on the rotation. I should say. We don’t do Rolodex anymore. Got on the rotation and called me back a month later, eventually just started playing in one of the bands and a member, a couple in the band started inviting me over to their home, and over the course of about a year, through conversations and they didn’t tell me this, but they were discipling me. I found myself following Jesus and now I am the lead pastor at that church.

[00:06:46] Julie Roys: Wow. What a story. And I think there’s so much in your background, that understanding of what led you, that need for belonging and safety, and that relates to our topic today of Christian nationalism. And we’re going to get into that, but also this has really impacted you personally. Talk about the impact this has had on you and your church as well.

[00:07:09] Caleb Campbell: Yeah. So I met the Lord at the church I’m serving at about 2001, came on staff in 2006, became the lead pastor in 2015. So I’ve been here for a long time, and I thought I knew what I was getting into.

[00:07:22] Caleb Campbell: And in 2015, primary season on into 2016 to the election, I remember thinking, okay, so most of the congregation that I serve is politically conservative. This is the land of Barry Goldwater and John McCain. So I thought I had a good handle on where everyone was at. They’re theologically evangelical, which I am. And they’re going to vote primarily red team, although not everybody. But they’re plugging their nose and voting, they’re watching the MAGA movement, the dehumanizing rhetoric, the rage inducing, anxiety inducing speech, the belittling, the caustic stuff that maybe they’re looking at that and they’re saying, oh, politics is messy.

[00:08:08] Caleb Campbell: I’m still a red team voter. So I’m going to plug my nose and do it. That’s what I thought people were at. I thought maybe 20% of the people that I’m pastoring love this stuff. They love the methods and the means of this movement, but 80 percent are going to vote red team, but they’re not going to give themselves over to this movement.

[00:08:27] Caleb Campbell: And I was right on the categories. I was wrong on the numbers. So 80 percent of the people who are in our congregation in 2016 were gone by the end of 2020. Many of them because of issues related to what I would now recognize as all connected to American Christian nationalism. We had taken what I consider to be conservative evangelical approaches with things like kindness, compassion, grace, understanding.

[00:08:51] Caleb Campbell: We weren’t giving ourselves over to the combative culture warring and the abstaining from the culture warring posture was perceived as betrayal of the gospel. I remember in 2020, I was called a fascist, a Marxist and having a Luciferian spirit of fear in the same week. And I remember thinking, I don’t think a person can be a fascist and a Marxist.

[00:09:14] Caleb Campbell: I think we should all just decide if everyone could get together. Yeah. So if we could all get together and decide which one I am, that’d be helpful to me. Cause I thought we were just doing what we had been doing as a church, Talking about caring for refugees, which we had done for decades, talking about racial reconciliation, which we had talked about for decades, part of my story. What was painful for me and what I just didn’t see was just how deeply people were not only committed to certain political convictions, which I totally get, but that they would use the means and methods of the kingdoms of this world in order to gain power, in order to protect and propagate their way of life.

[00:09:51] Caleb Campbell: And that was what was striking to me. And I realized that this stuff had always been there. It had just been at hushed kitchen table conversations, but now with the rise of the MAGA movement or whatever you want to call this thing, they got a permission structure that said, I can take that quiet kitchen table conversation, I can speak it out loud in my Sunday school class because my assumption is everyone believes the same way I believe. And to a great degree, that was the case. And so it was apocalyptic in that it was unveiling what was going on inside people’s hearts that at the end of the day, they were more willing to reach for the power of the sword in order to protect what they perceive to be the way of the cross.

[00:10:31] Caleb Campbell: And so it impacted our church. Like I said, 80 percent of people there in 2016 were gone by the end of 2020. And for me personally, this was devastating. The relational loss these are people that I loved. I shared communion with them. I baptized my kids at this church. I got married in our building.

[00:10:48] Caleb Campbell: These are my people. And part of my healing process in 21,I was on sabbatical, and I spent a full day just walking around a park and writing down names of broken relationships as they came to mind. And at the end of the day, I had over 300 names. And these are not just names.

[00:11:07] Caleb Campbell: These are relationships. We’d share communion together. I’ve been in the hospital with them and physiologically in 2020, I got COVID in June of 2020. So I was an early adopter. I got shingles in July and then facial paralysis in August. And I went to the doctor, the emergency room, and he said, yeah, you’ve got this thing called Ramsey Hunt.

[00:11:34] Caleb Campbell: The shingles is infected. The nerves in your face is paralyzed and maybe you’ll get it back. And so I got about 90 percent of it back. I’m still about 10 percent paralyzed on the right side of my face. And the doctor said, I remember this, Julie, the doctor said have you been under any stress lately?

[00:11:52] Caleb Campbell: And I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah, there’s a book called, The Body Keeps Score, and boy I carry that with me. And yeah, the personal toll, the pastoral toll, the physiological toll has been pretty devastating for me personally. Yeah.

[00:12:07] Julie Roys: I can relate to so many things in your story because I think for a lot of us, it was very disillusioning, that line about being a compassionate conservative.

[00:12:16] Julie Roys: I used to always say that conservatives are actually compassionate, and we really care. And we’re not the monsters that the left makes us out to be. And then. The MAGA movement started, and I was shocked. I was absolutely shocked because I feel like I’ve always been the same person.

[00:12:32] Julie Roys: I’ve always stood for the same things. And yet all these people that I thought were my tribe are not my tribe, and it’s so disillusioning. So you could come out with a lot of bitterness towards Christian nationalism. Instead, what you’ve done, is  you talk about loving them and I love your heart, and it comes out so clearly in this and it was actually really good for me to read because it was a good heart check for me and just a reorienting.

[00:12:56] Julie Roys: Oh, Lord, help me not to get angry and prideful and all those things that I can see wrong with other people that can actually be in me. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. But before we go on, I do want to just ask you to define Christian nationalism because there’s a whole lot of people out there saying this isn’t even a thing like, this is just a disparaging term that’s been put on us.

[00:13:16] Julie Roys: And there isn’t necessarily, in the dictionary, we can’t go to Christian nationalism and find necessarily a definition of this, but you found some really helpful things regarding, being able to understand this movement. Tell us, what have you seen Christian nationalism being in practical terms?

[00:13:35] Caleb Campbell: Sure. Yeah. My approach is viewing this movement through a missio-logical lens. So as a missionary, and not there’s a lot of great resources out there viewing this movement psychologically, historically, politically. That’s not really my approach, although I value those things.

[00:13:52] Caleb Campbell: And so I define American Christian nationalism in the way that we see it today as 3 things at the same time; a political ideology, a tribal identity, and a spiritual idolatry. So the political ideology is basically Christian nationalism in America, is that Christians should run the government or should be in control of the state. Nationalism as a political ideology is that there should be a nation state and that a certain people group should run it.

[00:14:22] Caleb Campbell: So ethnic nationalism in Ireland, you have. Irish nationalism, the idea being that, ethnically Irish people should be in charge of the government. This is religious nationalism that Christians, however one defines it, should run the government to protect and propagate their way of being in the world.

[00:14:39] Caleb Campbell: There’s variations on the theme, but that’s the root of the definition. As a tribal identity, it’s a means of talking about a people group. In some senses, it’s a surrogate for ethnicity. Ethnicity being a way to talk about a distinguishable people group. And so American Christian nationalists is an identifiable people group with taboos and values and origin story, even music and food in the same way that a missiologist would think about a tribe or an ethnicity.

[00:15:06] Caleb Campbell: We can think about American Christian nationalists in that way. Also certain clothing styles And just if you were a missionary in a foreign field, you would be noticing those types of things. And so it’s a tribal identity. It’s a way to refer to a people group. In fact, many inside the movement are referring to themselves as Christian nationalists.

[00:15:26] Caleb Campbell: And I believe that they don’t primarily mean the political ideology, but rather the people they belong to. And glad to talk more about that. But third, it is a spiritual idolatry mixed within the political ideology and the tribal identity is syncretism where you and most missionaries could talk ad nauseum about this, where you go into a culture and you see the gospel taking root, but then some of the local customs or religious traditions that are outside of scripture sync up with the Christianity, a classic kind of innocuous form of, well maybe innocuous form of syncretism in America is the syncing up of the Santa Claus figure with the Christmas story.

[00:16:06] Caleb Campbell: Where we say this is Christmas. It’s not Bible Christmas. Santa Claus is like an American or at least a Western European injection of our culture into the Christmas story where you’ll see the Santa Claus figure alongside a nativity. So it’s spiritual idolatry in a form of there’s syncretism.

[00:16:23] Caleb Campbell: There’s also in American Christian nationalism today, a form of empire worship, which you see addressed in the book of Revelation in the new Testament, where there is a veneration of the state power, the economic and military power and might of one’s state or government or empire that gets venerated as if it is uniquely inspired by or designed by or used by God.

[00:16:48] Caleb Campbell: I have heard purveyors of American Christian nationalism say that the American military is God’s chosen instrument for justice in the world. This would be a syncretism and an empire worship mixed together. Much to the applause of many in the room, I might add. So American Christian nationalism is political ideology, tribal identity, and spiritual ideology.

[00:17:09] Julie Roys: Wow. And there’s so much to unpack in there. And you do unpack it in your book, and we’re going to get to some of those things. But this is what’s so interesting is all of the things that you just said, I know there are Christian nationalists out there that would say, I don’t adhere to that, or I don’t adhere to this.

[00:17:25] Julie Roys: But yet there’s kind of these themes that you see running through it and not all of them necessarily adhere to every single one or there’s even spectrum of it, but I think just by identifying , it kind of help say, okay, where am I on this spectrum perhaps, or my friend and how can we discuss this?

[00:17:46] Caleb Campbell: Yeah it’s almost like the old stereo systems; there would be an equalizer. If you remember that there’s all these little dials that turns up the base and treble or whatever. And in the lived experience of a person who’s given themselves over to this movement, the political ideology could be at an 11 and the spiritual idolatry could be at a two or vice versa. And so for each individual, individuals have different volume levels of these things. And so it’s not uniform across the board.

[00:18:13] Julie Roys: You also talk about, and this is the title of your book, right? Disarming Leviathan. Yeah. And really interesting. And I’m sure a lot of people go, why is Leviathan on this? But you talk about it in spiritual terms as well, that you’re seeing, there’s some spiritual dynamics to this whole thing. And it’s very like this Leviathan creature that we see throughout scripture. So talk about Leviathan and how you see the spiritual dynamics of this movement playing out.

[00:18:41] Caleb Campbell: Yes. So the biblical authors had this way of talking about chaos evil in beastly terms. Probably most famous would be the serpent in the garden of Eden. Which comes in and works against the disordered ways of God. There is in Revelation, the beast, and the dragon. In Genesis chapter four, when Cain is meditating on murdering his brother, Abel, God says to Cain, watch out because sin is crouching at your door.

[00:19:11] Caleb Campbell: This idea of a predatory beast that’s going to leap out and consume. Peter says Satan wanders about like a roaring lion seeking to devour. And so in the prophets, Psalms and Job, you have that beast referred to as Leviathan, which is a way to talk about this ancient sea dragon that lived in the chaotic abyss, the sea the chaotic waters, and worked against the ordered ways of God.

[00:19:38] Caleb Campbell: It created or propagated rage and anxiety. It was a power force that the kings or the military generals of this world could tether themselves to. Prophets speak to this, almost like you could give yourself over to this chaotic evil power force so much that you become beastly yourself.

[00:19:59] Caleb Campbell: They would refer to some kings in this way. And so it was a way to talk about chaos evil that works against the ordered ways of God. So a disintegrating or disordered force that leads to the fruit of the flesh. The apostle Paul is always juxtaposing the works of the flesh or the fruit of the kingdoms of this world with the fruit of the Spirit.

[00:20:23] Caleb Campbell: And so thinking about American Christian nationalism, not primarily in politically ideological terms, but rather as a matter of the heart, a matter of the soul, Leviathan speaks to what I believe is a disordering chaotic evil force that some of the purveyors of American Christian nationalism are tethering themselves to.

[00:20:48] Caleb Campbell: And one of the reasons why I believe that is because look at the fruit of the movement. It generates anxiety, derision, greed, outrage, et cetera, opposite of the fruit of the spirit. And so there’s some spiritual dynamic going on here. And the reason that I use disarming is because we’re not to take a combative approach towards Leviathan that’s God’s job. In the book of Revelation, that’s the lamb’s job, but rather that people in search of safety, belonging and purpose can be tempted to give themselves over to some version of Leviathan, which, by the way, American Christian nationalism was one of many a multitude of expressions of Leviathan.

[00:21:31] Caleb Campbell: It’s not the only one. But we can, in search of safety, belonging and purpose, reach out our hands and embrace the Leviathan because we think it gives us power. And the objective for those of us who see our friends and family ensnared by this is to invite them to be disarmed. To release that power of the sword and turn back to the way of Jesus and receive his embrace instead of the embrace of Leviathan.

[00:21:59] Caleb Campbell: Thinking in terms of the spiritual dynamic of it, people are ensnared into these worldly powerful movements and Galatians 6:1 and 2 has been an anchor for me because it says, if anyone is ensnared or caught up in evil or transgression, you who are spiritually mature, seek to restore that person gently.

[00:22:22] Caleb Campbell: So restoration is the goal, not defeat, not conquering, not domination, not winning the argument, right? Restoration is the goal, seek to restore them gently, and watch out for yourself, lest you too be tempted. So 98 percent of the work is in my heart.

[00:22:43] Caleb Campbell: And then it says, therefore bear one another’s burdens and thus fulfill the law of Christ. The law of Christ being love God, love neighbor. And so that language of disarming Leviathan, loving your Christian nationalist neighbor is a) recognizing there really is a Leviathan power at work here. My job is simply to invite people to disarm from it as a means of loving my Christian nationalist neighbor as I want them to love me.

[00:23:06] Julie Roys: Let me push back on that a little bit because I am sure if we had a Christian nationalist in the room right now, he’d say, good grief, the disorder is out there in the world. The world is going  to hell in a hand basket. And we are trying to save this world.

[00:23:18] Julie Roys: We’re the ones bringing order. We’re the ones who are rescuing America from this Leviathan that, all the evil, they would say the evil is out there and they’re bringing the order. So what would you say to the Christian nationalists who says that? Because I would guess that would be the push to back.

[00:23:35] Caleb Campbell: Oh, of course. Yeah. I would notice number one, Alexander Solzhenitsyn said that the line, that it would be so easy, wouldn’t it? If all the evil was just out there. And we, the good, could just kick out all the evil people. Solzhenitsyn says that the line of good and evil cuts through every human heart.

[00:23:55] Caleb Campbell: That the evil is not out there only. It is also in here. And so this is why I think Luther would say all of life is repentance. Because every moment I am tempted to give myself over to the power of Leviathan. It’s not out there. The number one problem ain’t out there. It’s in me. And a life of confession and repentance and humility leads me to the space to say, there is a speck in their eye, but there is a log in mine.

[00:24:26] Caleb Campbell: And if I don’t take care of my own self, if I’m not in a healthy space with the Lord, if I’m combative and derisive and culture warring in the name of the gospel, I might be actually distorting the message of the gospel. And so I want to invite people to a space of humility and reflection. Two, one of the things that Leviathan does is it promises good ends by unjust means.

[00:24:52] Caleb Campbell: And one of the things that I’m seeing American Christian nationalists do today is to say things like, turn the other cheek isn’t getting us anywhere. We need to use political dominance to protect God. Now I have some theological problems with those things, but just notice that it’s the basic argument of today’s American Christian nationalist movement is we need to protect the way of the cross by picking up the sword, by dominating over others, by lording our power over others.

[00:25:21] Caleb Campbell: And I would just notice every time Jesus disciples did that, He corrected them. When James and John came to Jesus and said, put us to your right hand and left, he said, are you able to drink the cup that I’m going to drink? In the garden of Gethsemane, when Peter was trying to do a good thing, protect Jesus, he pulled out his sword.

[00:25:40] Caleb Campbell: And he did violent action. And Jesus said, Peter, we don’t do that here. That is not going to get us where we think God has us going. That will not beget the kingdom. And not only does he tell him to put his sword away, he heals Malchus, the victim of the act of violence. And what Jesus shows us is that if you really want to transform society, If you really want to shape culture, if you truly want to see a righteous people, you will lay down the sword and pick up the way of the cross.

[00:26:10] Caleb Campbell: You will, as Philippians 2 says, follow me and take on the form of a servant, laying down your power in service of others. And so my concern with American Christian nationalism is not primarily with the ends that they’re trying to get to, a righteous and just community. It’s the means by which they’re trying to get there, which is domination, power, culture war.

[00:26:32] Caleb Campbell: And everything I’m seeing in the teaching of Jesus is that we don’t do culture war, we do ambassador of the kingdom. We model where two or more gathered, we model on earth as it is in heaven and invite others, not by means of coercion. But through means of compassion and hospitality, we invite others in to practice this way of the kingdom with us.

[00:26:54] Caleb Campbell: And so the ends in many cases are just fine, right? Righteous, just society, economic prosperity, right? Great honoring God. Sure. It’s the means that are the primary concern. And this, by the way, is the primary temptation of the Leviathan in the scripture. If you’re a serpent in the garden and the tempter in the desert with Jesus in the desert, what the evil one is tempting with is not unjust ends, but unrighteous means to obtain those ends.

[00:27:25] Julie Roys: And that is what is so confusing. And I think this is why Christians can so easily be pulled into this movement because one, you’re hearing scripture, you’re hearing ends that most Christians would say, yes, I want a righteous. Do I want everyone in America to bow before Christ? Yes, absolutely.

[00:27:44] Julie Roys: We all want those things as believers. We want our hearts change. We want a country that’s righteous. We want some of this craziness that’s going on to stop. But yeah, it is the means, and it is shocking to me to hear very Machiavellian kind of, the ends justify the means this kind of language coming out of Christians.

[00:28:02] Julie Roys: And like you said, it’s not turn the other cheek. And when I heard the justifications for Trump, like we don’t need a pastor, which sometimes you need someone who will fight dirty. You know what I’m like, what? This is not the way of the cross. But let’s talk specifically about some of the methods of Leviathan because I think this is where it gets really revealing.

[00:28:21] Julie Roys: And one of them is distorting scripture. You mentioned that already but then there’s some other characteristics, some other methods that Leviathan is using in this Christian nationalist movement that maybe people aren’t really aware of.

[00:28:39] Julie Roys: And I love too what you said about disorder and chaos, the politics of panic and some of that happening. Man, that is at work in a huge way here where I just feel like people are being whipped up into a frenzy. Yes. And of course, when you get that scared, yeah you’ll do things that you wouldn’t do in a rational state. So let’s talk about some of those methods a little bit in more detail.

[00:29:02] Caleb Campbell: Yeah, stirring up anxiety is a favored tactic by purveyors of American Christian nationalism. In my limited understanding, the difference between fear and anxiety is as follows. Fear is the good feeling we feel when a wild bear enters the room. If you and I were sitting, having a cup of coffee and a wild bear walked in, we would feel something; that feeling by and large is fear, and that fear would energize us to action.

[00:29:32] Caleb Campbell: It would alert our senses to the fact that something dangerous is happening, and we need to act right? Probably escape. I think, would be my tactic, I think. Anxiety is having an unfounded sense that there’s a bear around every corner, that did you smell that? I think that’s a bear. I just saw a shadow go across the window.

[00:29:57] Caleb Campbell: I think that’s a bear and constantly being in a state of panic that there’s a bear and there’s a little piece of cat fur on the ground. I think that’s a bear. Now, when I’m in an anxious state, right? Unfounded fear, you know who benefits from me being in that state? Is bear repellent spray incorporated?

[00:30:15] Caleb Campbell: They love it when I’m feeling anxiety about the bears because I am malleable. I’m manipulatable to take out my wallet and purchase for 19. 99 a month, a subscription to Bear repellent spray incorporated. Okay. So in the same way politicians and pundits and power brokers know that if I can whip people into a panic about some kind of unfounded fear, anxiety, they will give me money and power.

[00:30:44] Caleb Campbell: Because I will promise to protect them. Now, I want to be clear. There are real threats. There are real things happening in the world. And what a leader does is they don’t manufacture something out of nothing. They take something that people are already feeling a level of anxiety about and they amplify it.

[00:31:00] Caleb Campbell: They turn it up to 11. Aunt Betty has grown up in the same community for 65 years and she was at the grocery store the other day and one of the clerks was not speaking English and Aunt Betty has never experienced that before in her hometown and the hometown is changing. That’s a very real thing.

[00:31:20] Caleb Campbell: But Betty is wondering, do I feel safe in my own community more? Am I going to have a home anymore? Because I need to be able to understand what’s going on. And I don’t know if I can understand anything that’s going on if everybody doesn’t speak my language in my own hometown, what’s going to happen to me?

[00:31:36] Caleb Campbell: And what about my kids? And you can see how this could stir up into a constant. Okay. So then she goes home and turns on entertainment news and the person says, have you noticed that the grocery store is changing? Yes, I have. And have you noticed that we’re being invaded? Oh, it’s invasion. Okay. It’s an invasion.

[00:31:55] Caleb Campbell: Yes. I have noticed. Yeah, give us your money and power. Julie, when a person feels in that state of anxiety that’s being leveraged by a power broker or pundit and they’re saying I will protect you from that change in your community, which is actually an invasion from people who hate your guts. They want to destroy your way of being. Well, none of that has been proven about this person, this clerk at the grocery store, right?

[00:32:24] Caleb Campbell: But Aunt Betty, this narrative is being spun and it’s being echoed and amplified on social media, at her Bible study, the news radio that she listens to on the car ride over to her Bible study, they’re all saying the same thing. And so she’s cutting checks and she’s willing to say things like, I don’t need a pastor in office, I need a bully because there’s an enemy out there.

Caleb Campbell: Now I want to notice, this could happen in a church, in my profession. It’s easy for pastors to say God created you, but you sinned and now God hates you. But if you donate today, I’ll protect you from God’s wrath. Okay. It could be used for social clubs.

[00:33:04] Caleb Campbell: The tactic is not unique to Christian nationalism, but it is the tactic of Leviathan and it’s stirring toxic anxiety, turning it to rage by creating an out group that is the enemy. And then saying, if you give me power and money, I will keep you safe from the enemy.

[00:33:22] Julie Roys: And it’s so sad because, when you bring that up, like for me, that’s somewhat emotional because I have a daughter in law who is Hispanic, and they are not the enemy. My goodness, such beautiful people. We have, I think, benefited so much as a family from having another culture and people and I love them dearly her entire family. I love dearly. And I’ve been so blessed by being able to see things from a new perspective. It’s been wonderful. And yet when I hear the talk, it just breaks my heart.

[00:33:57] Julie Roys: Sometimes because I’m like, these are human beings. And as I read scripture, we’re supposed to care about those who are less fortunate than we are, and which a lot of them are. And that’s why they’ve come to this country. It’s a complex issue. It’s a nuanced issue.

[00:34:15] Julie Roys: And we need to talk about it. There are some real dangers. But what I don’t like is when we talk about it in such a polarized way that demonizes. And there’s another thing you point out is that there’s also this sort of us versus them. Which, just this morning I got on social media and I was called woke for the umpteenth, I don’t know how many times which I’m like, Oh, you mean woke as in I understand, and I’m awake to the injustices that have been perpetuated against people? Thank you very much. I feel good about that, but that’s not what they were meaning. And I knew it wasn’t, they were using it as a disparaging term.

[00:34:49] Julie Roys: And it was simply because I was calling out that Megan Basham had quoted, supposedly cited this video that Phil Vischer supposedly was in talking about that we need to be nuanced or something in our approach to abortion. And he’s like, I went to that video and it’s not me, not my words, not my voice, this is a wrongs. But, because I pointed that out now I’m woke.

[00:35:10] Julie Roys: It seems to be just this tactic  we have to demonize people who push against or who question because we can’t actually engage with the actual issue of what’s actually happening. We can’t have a rational discussion about the issues and talk about both sides. We have to demonize us/them. Where do you see this in Christian nationalism? And maybe some examples would be helpful if people aren’t noticing this, but I think it’s pretty blatant.

[00:35:41] Caleb Campbell: Yeah certainly you mentioned immigrants, like the big scare, and usually it’s immigrants from the Southern border across the Southern border. Which ironically, most Northern European immigrants are not religious and tend to be more socialist. It’s such an irony because there’s so many political conservatives South of the American border. It’s striking to me that so many conservative evangelicals are like, we should have more European immigrants.

[00:36:13] Caleb Campbell: I’ve not quite put all the pieces together on that one, but I’m a Phoenician. So I share more in common with Northern Mexico than I do with Seattle.

[00:36:21] Caleb Campbell: So, I think the impending immigrant invader thing is just a common trope. The coastal elites usually now referred to as the woke, the libs, people in San Francisco, New York City, et cetera.

[00:36:37] Caleb Campbell: California is certainly viewed with derision. And so there’s an international other, then there’s the American other, the libs, the wokes, then there’s the conservative other. So the American Christian nationalist movement is also othering people like Mitt Romney, Liz Cheney, they’re referred to as rhinos, Republicans in name only because they dared to question the anointed leadership. You mentioned like Phil Vischer. I’m thinking inside of evangelicalism, people like David French, Russell Moore, who to my understanding and reading and my mind are conservative evangelicals, politically conservative as well.

[00:37:18] Julie Roys: And you know what’s strange about that?. With them? I have asked on social media numerous times, Can you mention some things about David French? Because they’ll say these awful things about him, and I’ve read a lot of David French. I just haven’t heard those things. What is it specifically that you’re offended by? or even Russell Moore and some of the people you mentioned and most of the time they don’t have a specific. It’s just, we know he’s the bad guy. They’re bad.

[00:37:40] Caleb Campbell: This is how toxic tribalism works is the othering is not a critique of their arguments. And it’s an ad hominem attack to dehumanize and dismiss. So I don’t have to engage with your arguments. So if you come at me with an argument and I don’t care for it, I could do one of two things. I could engage the argument on its merits, or I could say, You are a Nazi or a communist or a fascist or whatever anything you’re heretic.

[00:38:10] Caleb Campbell: I mean anything. And what that functionally does is it ascribes to you a category of person with whom I don’t need to take seriously. So it’s a means of getting out of actually having to do the hard work of making an argument for whatever it is we’re talking about. If you come at me with a solution to the border problem, whatever, and I don’t care for it, but I don’t have something good to say in response, Oh, you’re woke. And then the straw man attacks; so you’re just saying we should have open borders, right? If I don’t like the argument you just made, I will put into your mouth an argument I think, and everyone else thinks is ridiculous. And that’s what we’ve developed, but that’s all-toxic tribalism.

[00:38:52] Caleb Campbell: And the leader of the tribe gains more strength in the tribe because they’re pretending they’re peacocking. They’re showing themselves to be strong, but it’s not real strength. Like real strength is the capacity to make the argument on its merits, but the ad hominem, the othering is just, I will protect you, my people, from them, the enemy.

[00:39:16] Caleb Campbell: And what I would notice is this is very common. This happens all over the world in movements all over the place, but within the church, with John 17, where Jesus prayed, may they be one as you and I are one when the apostle Paul, I think meditating on that prayer says in Christ, there is no ethnic other, but we are all part of the family of God.

[00:39:40] Caleb Campbell: The early church is known to have been one of the most eclectic bunches of people: slave, slave owner, Greek, Jew, male, female, Scythian, barbarian. And they’re all one at a table in a house, and then to say that that movement means that we need to create another to be protected from? Man, if there’s any other, my posture towards them is compassionate invitation, not expulsion and derision.

[00:40:06] Julie Roys: One of the other things you talk about is that there’s a lot of false promises, and you’ve alluded to some of these. Mention some of the specific false promises because people are getting, the same way you got sucked into skinhead movement because there were some promises being made. And it is surprising to me too, because I feel like some of these promises are things that I’m seeing will happen when Christ returns, and I’m like, wow, there’s some really over promising here. So talk about that.

[00:40:35] Caleb Campbell: Sure speaking to that one directly, the promise that we’ll be a righteous country. I would just notice that we’ve not had one ever, including the one in the Bible, like the one God’s chosen people in the Bible were chosen. And then all throughout is a story of failure after failure after failure to live up to being a kingdom that models the way of God. This is why the prophets would say eventually in scripture, we need the law of God written on our hearts, not in some book somewhere. So the overwhelming testimony of scripture is you can’t get a righteous people without the gospel. And the gospel comes not through the state, but through the church operating in a way that transcends all states. So that promise like the concept of having a righteous country in the true sense of righteous and justice, like the biblical sense, it’s a false promise.

[00:41:38] Caleb Campbell: You can’t get there. You can have people who are pursuing righteousness So that’s a false promise. Another false promise more acutely in the lived experience would be safety, belonging, and purpose. The core needs that we have in the very center of our being. We need to be safe. We need to belong to a community, a people, a family, and we need to have purpose.

[00:41:56] Caleb Campbell: And those things are granted in Jesus. I will never leave you or forsake you. Behold, I’m with you always to the end of the age. That’s safety, belonging; in many Christian traditions, we call each other brothers and sisters. That I belong not because of my ethnic heritage or my economic status or my political convictions, but because of who Christ is, I am made new, and I belong.

[00:42:19] Caleb Campbell: And then purpose, go into all the world, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Bear witness to the kingdom, safety, belonging and purpose. American Christian nationalists say the world is changing. The enemy is at the gates. I will protect you. Safety.

[00:42:38] Caleb Campbell: Belonging. True patriots like you and me are going to purpose stand together against the woke agenda. And we’re going to fight it in the school board meetings and the county seat. And we’re going to take the White House back. Safety, belonging, purpose. However. Leviathan promises safety, but it never delivers true safety because true safety is to be in a communion where I can say whatever’s going on inside of me out loud without fear of expulsion.

[00:43:10] Caleb Campbell: If you ask the wrong question inside a Christian nationalist community, you will be expelled and othered – the Republican in name only. True belonging is I belong based on something that transcends my currently held convictions or posture towards politics. Something closer to a familial belonging. And then purpose I would just wonder, is taking power, worldly power, the purpose that Jesus pointed us to?

[00:43:38] Caleb Campbell: And so again, these are all relatively good desires, but what Leviathan actually delivers is a pale facsimile of the real McCoy, which only Jesus can deliver.

[00:43:51] Julie Roys: As you’re speaking, I’m thinking of some of the hallmarks of evangelicalism; conversionism, belief in Christ returning; evangelicalism has always been about converting the heart and about being ambassador to people.

[00:44:05] Julie Roys: Now, there was always this social action part, and I used to be very politically involved. I’m not anymore because I’m like I can’t see anything that I want to be involved in that makes sense to me. Like with politics right now,  I’m just like, both right and left. I can’t really affirm the movements and sign on.

[00:44:28] Julie Roys: But somehow it seems like the social action became the means of conversion. That it just got inverted. And it’s been shocking to me to watch this. I know I’m thinking right now that there’s still going to be some people listening who are saying listen, I’m not part of it. I’m not a Christian nationalist. I just heard somebody who is a Christian nationalist. If you would say, like, all these marks are there, as a public figure, and she said, I’m not a Christian nationalist. I’m like, okay, so they may say Turning Point USA, which is an organization that you mentioned in your book.

[00:45:06] Julie Roys: And I would say. Outright, very Christian nationalist organization. Sean Foyt who blatantly embraces the term Christian nationalism and is trying to say this is a good thing. So that they might say, yeah, I’m a part of Turning Point. I’ve gone to some Sean Foyt rallies. I think that’s great.

[00:45:22] Julie Roys: Not really Christian nationalism. You, as part of your whole research, and I found this really fascinating, you’ve been to these, and actually I would love to go to these now that I was reading it. I’m like, I should go. I really should go. This would be fascinating to do, but you’re also in a hotbed of it there in Phoenix.

[00:45:38] Julie Roys: There is so much Christian nationalism. But you went to a Turning Point, like a pastor’s, you went to a number of them, but you did go to one that was specifically for pastors, and you talk about specifically what you saw there and okay, folks, if you’re saying this is Turning Point isn’t Christian nationalism, this is what I saw. Tell us what you saw at that event and why like just for you like red flags all over.

[00:46:06] Caleb Campbell: Yeah, so as part of my work, for the last few years I attend the rallies as many as I can, online zoom calls, coaching, training things like that. Like I said, I’m in Phoenix, so I’m in a hotbed of it.

[00:46:19] Caleb Campbell: There’s multiple organizations that are here propagating versions of American Christian nationalism. And one of the things I got invited to in 2022 was the first pastor summit, which they had in San Diego. And it was paid for; one donor paid for 500 pastors and their spouses to go for three days at the Lowe’s Coronado resort, which is a pretty swanky joint.

[00:46:39] Caleb Campbell: And it tells you how much money is behind this thing. And I wanted to go cause I had been to the rallies here locally with people, some of whom were in the congregation that I serve. But I wanted to go and talk to pastors, my peers, and kind of get underneath what’s your connection to this movement? What are you thinking about it? How does this square with your theology and your ecclesiology?

[00:46:59] Caleb Campbell: And so I went and the things that I heard from the stage were terrifying to me and abhorrent. Again, many of the political postures that they were arguing for were just standard run of the mill conservative prolife, anti-abortion, et cetera, kind of the conservative view on marriage, that was their which has been around evangelicalism in America for a long time.

[00:47:30] Caleb Campbell: It was the dehumanizing, militant, combative, derisive rhetoric, the way that they would talk about people who didn’t agree with them as evil, demonic, monsters, not human. We’re talking about our neighbors in this way. And to watch a room full of pastors say amen and hallelujah with great verve and vigor.

[00:47:55] Caleb Campbell: And there is a lot of stuff around, like defying the government. usually around COVID 19 restrictions and whatever a person thinks about the restrictions and all that. There’s a lot in scripture to be said that’s given to the church about our posture towards government and combative approach doesn’t seem to be one of them.

[00:48:13] Caleb Campbell: But there was a gloating people would literally say, we didn’t care how many people got sick. We were taking a stand against the evil government. So taking a stand against evil, I’m on board with that. Saying, I don’t care how many people in my congregation get sick? These are non-pastoral sounding things to me.

[00:48:32] Julie Roys: I was talking to somebody just yesterday who got ostracized from her church because her husband is working in a situation where he needed, he could not be exposed to certain things and because of that she couldn’t. And just ask for some, Hey, can we do this by zoom or can, just very, you would think that we can just be, you can have a different view, but you would think we can accommodate each other, and we can accommodate different views, but somehow with COVID, it became like, there is no other view. And if you are a real Christian, if you’re a real Christian you will have this view and you will fight it. And if you don’t fight it, then you’re not a real Christian. It seems to be the implication, right?

[00:49:17] Caleb Campbell: It’s toxic tribalism. It’s a version of fundamentalism.

[00:49:20] Julie Roys: I don’t see that in scripture though. I see a lot of tests for becoming a Christian. I don’t see your stance on COVID or a pandemic as being one of them.

[00:49:29] Caleb Campbell: And the overwhelming testimony of scripture is that our character is to be like Christ’s that the fruit of the spirit should be practiced in us. And so the derisive dehumanizing, I don’t care what happens to sick people. If you ask a question about a vaccine, we’re kicking you out because it’s heresy. It’s this conflation of a tribalism with theology.

[00:49:58] Julie Roys: It’s almost like COVID vaccination became mark of the beast.

[00:50:03] Caleb Campbell: Yeah. Oh, for sure.

[00:50:04] Julie Roys: I haven’t seen that. I just don’t see that.

[00:50:07] Caleb Campbell: Yeah. And for me as a pastor, like wading into things about health and safety, I’m not trained for that. I didn’t go to like global pandemic navigation 101 in seminary; that’s outside of my field.

[00:50:24] Caleb Campbell: So when pastors would defer to medical professionals, which we do all the time, it was received as like some kind of succumbing to the atheist agenda or something. Striking to me was James Lindsay outspoken atheist and critic of the church was one of the keynote speakers at a pastor’s gathering. I’ve never had that happen before. And the reason that he was invited to speak is because they felt like he had an orthodox view of CRT, critical race theory, and they wanted him to talk about it. He was, and they were derisive and dismissive of Christians who would have different nuances or views.

[00:51:01] Julie Roys: So they’re more likely to embrace an atheist who’s anti CRT than a Christian who they perceive, which, by the way, I have done so many stories of people who’ve been pegged CRT and go, I didn’t even know what CRT was.

[00:51:16] Caleb Campbell: It was me. I got, I remember in 2020 I did, Julie, I did the exact same racial reconciliation sermon that I had done six times before over the last decade. Spoiler alert, sometimes pastors reuse sermons, and it was right after George Floyd was killed and it’s in the middle of COVID, I dusted off old faithful and I did the same sermon. And of course I had updated a few of the bits, but it was the same message.

[00:51:39] Caleb Campbell: And I was met with accusations of propagating CRT, which I didn’t know what it was. And I remember sitting with people and being like, this was the same sermon I did two years ago. Nobody came at me. Again, that speaks to the fact this isn’t actually about the arguments by and large. It’s about which tribe are you part of? Cause you sounded to my ears like you’re an outsider or another. And I saw a lot of this at this pastor’s conference where there’s revisionist history statements like Thomas Jefferson was a faithful Christian, statements like the American military is God’s arm for justice in the world, godly justice in the world. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And what was striking to me is, there’s a room full of 500 pastors that are raising their hands, saying amen and hallelujah to these things. And I chronicle some of that in my book. So it’s no wonder that the people at the large events are saying amen and hallelujah because their pastors are discipling them to see this as good and righteous and orthodox and fidelity to scripture.

[00:52:47] Julie Roys: We mentioned this before, and I know this is your heart. Is that these are people that Jesus loves, and they are caught in, I think, a spirit of the age. And they believe it to their core. And so you talk about, don’t view these people as your enemy. They’re not your enemy, that we need to love them and view them really as a mission field. So talk about that perspective and why you believe that so passionately and how that should inform how we engage.

[00:53:20] Caleb Campbell: Yeah. Galatians6:1-2 If anyone’s caught up, you who are mature, seek to restore gently. So restoration is the key and recognizing that the clinging to American Christian nationalism is not something that they’ve logic to themselves into.

[00:53:37] Caleb Campbell: It’s not coming from the head. It’s coming from the heart. The needs of safety, belonging, and purpose, the feeling under imminent threat, the toxic anxiety, the rage, that’s all coming from the heart. And so my invitation to people is, Take on the posture of a missionary, not an enemy combatant, not a culture warrior.

[00:53:55] Caleb Campbell: Don’t go head-to-head arguing facts and opinions, but rather like a good missionary, study the culture, try to understand why they have the values they have, why they like the songs they like, the taboos they have, why that scares them, their dreams and hopes for the future. Try as best as you can, like a missionary, study the culture.

[00:54:15] Caleb Campbell: And then set the table of hospitality, because again, the problem does not exist in the head, but the heart, and the heart does not change when it feels under threat. I would notice, Jesus, everyone likes to cite Jesus flipping tables, which I like a good table flip, but depending on how you count, that’s one, possibly two times in the Gospels.

[00:54:35] Caleb Campbell: But notice how frequently Jesus set the table. Jesus ate his way through the Gospels, and he’s constantly inviting misfits to his table. In the Gospel of Mark, one of the first things he does is invite two fishermen to a tax collector’s house and says, follow me. And it’s at the space of hospitality, at the table where I feel I can let my guard down; I feel welcomed by this person. And so when they accept me for being me, an image bearer of God, my heart becomes more open to listening to what they have to say. This is why social media is not an excellent space to connect heart to heart, because you can’t communicate your welcome with me.

[00:55:17] Caleb Campbell: And so study the culture, set the table of hospitality, and then finally in that space of hospitality, if there’s an opportunity, engage in humble subversion. So to show the inconsistencies of their values. And so moving the conversation from head to heart could go something like this. Your cousin, Jimmy is yelling and screaming at the kid’s birthday party about the invasion or lizard people running the government.

[00:55:44] Caleb Campbell: And cousin Jimmy seems really anxious and ragey about this thing, but this is not the right context for that, right? We’re just trying to celebrate the 12-year old’s birthday party. So I might go over to Jimmy. Hey, Jimmy. Yeah. Can I talk to you for a minute? Man, some of this stuff that you’re saying sounds really important to talk about. Can we meet up next week for a coffee because I want to hear what you have to say.

[00:56:07] Caleb Campbell: So right there I’ve not agreed at all with Jimmy. I’m not saying that all sounds completely legitimate. I’m just noticing Jimmy is in a state of being that’s ragey and anxious and I want to invite him through setting the table of hospitality to share some of that feeling with me.

[00:56:26] Caleb Campbell: So we might go out to coffee. Hey, Jimmy, some of that stuff you were saying that sounds really scary. I’m not hearing those things, but you seem to, can you tell me more about that? And they might go on about lizard people running the government. They heard about it through a website or whatever.

[00:56:41] Caleb Campbell: And I might want to say, moving head to heart, Jimmy that sounds really scary when you hear that stuff. What are you feeling? Oh, I’m so scared right like that our government’s gonna fall apart that America’s gonna not be a country anymore, that evil people are doing evil things that are gonna destroy America and I’m scared for my kids That they’re not going to have a safe space that they’re going to be taught to hate their country.

[00:57:07] Caleb Campbell: Right there, I can connect on values. Jimmy, I love that you love your kids so much, and I hope you know I also love them, and I know you love my kids, and as we try to work as dads in this community, I just love that you love this so much, that you love them so much, and that you’re concerned so much about their safety and well-being. I honor that in you, so I’m gonna honor the good, and I’m trying to give statements that communicate, in the book I call them shibboleths, I’m trying to give statements that I’m not his enemy.

[00:57:41] Caleb Campbell: I might disagree with the thing he was yelling about, but at the core values I’m in lockstep with Jimmy and so I’m going to honor the good. I’m going to make statements like I’m also concerned about our government that communicate that I’m meeting Jimmy in that space. I’m going to avoid red flags like Jimmy, that sounds like fascism or, Jimmy, that’s insane. You sound insane right now. That’s just a red flag that communicates, I’m not a safe person to talk with. And then I might invite Jimmy to some humble subversion like this, Jimmy, I know that you’re trying to raise your kids to follow Jesus, I’m trying to do the same thing.

[00:58:16] Caleb Campbell: And I’ve been thinking a lot about what Jesus says that all the kingdoms of this world are shaken. That, I remember that time, Jimmy, when the disciples are asking Jesus about the temple and he says one stone won’t be on top of another, like their whole world could fall apart. But he keeps saying, Jesus keeps saying, while the world might fall apart and evil people are going to do evil things, that he would never leave us or forsake us.

[00:58:41] Caleb Campbell: And that’s why we could be a peaceful people, a compassionate people. And I feel a tension in my own heart, Jimmy, how do I show concern for my kids? How do I act in this world to create safe space for our community and follow the teaching of Jesus, which says, practice the way of peace and peacemaking because he’s never going to leave us.

[00:59:01] Caleb Campbell: What do you think? And what I’ve done is I’ve honored Jimmy by asking him to help me navigate a very real tension that I do feel. Now, I don’t agree about the lizard people thing, but I’ve got huge concerns I’m running around with, and I find it difficult to practice the way of Jesus. I might not give myself over to Christian nationalism, but there are many swords that I’m tempted to pick up.

[00:59:26] Caleb Campbell: And I’m trying to engage in humble subversion, not correcting Jimmy’s beliefs in his head, but reintroduce Jesus to the heart. And here’s why hospitality is so key. If in that conversation, we’re able to plant seeds that can grow into the fruit of repentance. Three weeks, three months, three years from now, when Jimmy is having a cup of coffee, thinking about Jesus and what it means to live in a broken society and peace and peacemaking.

[00:59:53] Caleb Campbell: And he says to himself, or he comes to the realization, I think maybe Jesus wants to transform this part of my heart. I think I’m thinking wrong about this. This is called what the Bible calls repentance, metanoia, having a complete mind-altering experience. And Jimmy starts to have that road to Damascus experience.

[01:00:10] Caleb Campbell: And then he says, Who can I talk to about this? Because I can’t go talk to my Christian Nationalist buddies, because if I ask the wrong questions, they’ll kick me out. My cousin Caleb, he was kind to me. He didn’t agree with me, but he was kind to me. He seemed to care for me, wanted to know what I thought.

[01:00:27] Caleb Campbell: I think I’ll give him a call. And if we can engage in that missionary model, of engagement, seeking to restore gently and we can have 100,000 kitchen table conversations for the next 10 years. We might begin to see systemic change in our communities.

[01:00:45] Julie Roys: I love that, and I have to say, as you’re speaking, what I’m noticing is that the kind of conversation, the way that you’re engaging, it shows that you’ve managed your anxiety because, and I’m telling you when I, and I will say when I am in those conversations, I’m thinking of some with family members that I deeply love and I hear some of this crazy come out of them and the amount of anxiety that causes for me, I’m like, cause I love you and you sound like a crazy person and you’re influencing people in this family that I love too.

[01:01:22] Julie Roys: This is insane. Do you hear yourself? This is the conversation going inside my head and the anxiety level in me, as I’m having these discussions, it is rising and rising and rising, and I’m realizing as you’re talking tell me how you do that. I’m realizing I need to really manage that well. I need to be filled with the fruit of the spirit because it is anxiety inducing for us. They are not the only ones that can go towards panic when they see some of this stuff. So how do you do that? Because that’s tough.

[01:01:54] Caleb Campbell: Julie, you have hit it right on the nose. 98 percent of this work is not in them. It’s in me. Galatians 6:1-2, bear one another’s burdens, but before that, it says, watch out for your own self that lest you to be tempted. If I meet anxiety with anxiety, if I meet rage with rage, I am only contributing to the chaos and disintegration. And so in order to be an agent of peacemaking and reconciliation, I first have to focus on me and my heart and my relationship with the Lord. I would just notice that in Jesus’ ministry, he was constantly going away to be with the Lord. He was frequently disappearing to pray and to commune with the Father. And I believe it’s because as a human, he was tempted towards anxiety.

[01:02:55] Caleb Campbell: And when I can recognize that all ground is equal at the foot of the cross, as grandma used to say, and that I am just as tempted to pick up the sword as my counterpart, their sword is different. Their swords is red, white and blue and smells like an apple pie. Mine’s different. I have a different sword, but I am also tempted to cling to the kingdoms of this world for power, safety, belonging and purpose.

[01:03:24] Caleb Campbell: In that space of recognition, confession, repentance, connection to the Lord, and then practical things. And I spent a whole chapter in the book talking about preparing our own hearts, engaging in the disciplines or the spiritual practices of commuting with the Lord, reflection, prayer, even fasting, corporate prayer.

[01:03:45] Caleb Campbell: One of the things I encourage people to do is if you’re going to go have a conversation with Cousin Jimmy, you call your homies and you say, would y’all pray with me for the next hour? Or on this day and at this time, because that’s when I’m gonna be with Jimmy and I think I’m gonna lose my mind if Jimmy does that lizard people thing, I’m going to need an extra helping an extra portion of God’s spirit because I’m weak.

[01:04:06] Caleb Campbell: And so even as I drive to meetings, even while I’m in the meeting, I am praying that the Lord would give me a sanctified imagination to see them for who Christ will make them into if they would disentangle from Leviathan and turn to him.

[01:04:24] Caleb Campbell: And so a hope filled imagination that there is no one too far gone. That the things that are coming out of their mouth are connected to deep feelings, which I also feel, and that the solution is not in my argument or my words or my clever reactions. The solution is to be like Jesus to them, so they might reach out to Jesus once again. To model and to practice the way of peace in such a way that it’s attractive to them to say, you know what, even when I’m yelling, Caleb is not. I’ve noticed that; wonder what’s going on in Caleb, why he’s not yelling? It’s that mission work, right?

[01:05:05] Julie Roys: My husband has a saying that people often won’t remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel. And I think that is just hitting the nail on the head. And we need to be ambassadors of Christ. And I think that’s exactly how Christ would be engaging. I think that’s exactly how Christ would approach this situation.

[01:05:37] Julie Roys: So again, so appreciate that in your book and you end the book on a hopeful note, because I think it’s very easy in the midst of this, to lose hope because this is what has been particularly hard, not with just with Christian nationalism, because as you said, this is one of many, of Leviathan’s things that he’s doing. But I think for a lot of us, we have seen so much disintegration and perversion of the church, which these were our people. This was supposed to be the light sitting on a hill. We’re supposed to be the salt of the earth. And we’re seeing just unbelievable amounts of compromise, of perversion, of twisting, there’s just so many things within the church that it’s easy to lose hope in the midst of this.

[01:06:21] Julie Roys: So where do you see hope and encourage our hearts because we need some encouragement today, not to just throw in the towel and move to some remote place and just hibernate for the rest of our lives.

[01:06:35] Caleb Campbell: Scriptures and church history is full of radical transformation stories. Underneath the call to repentance, Jesus shows up on the scene and his first sermon in Mark is repent and believe the good news of the kingdom. So repent, turn, right? Turn from your wicked ways. Turn back to Jesus. Turn back to God because the kingdom of God is here. Underneath that is the fundamental understanding that people can change.

[01:07:06] Caleb Campbell: And so there is no one existing today who is beyond the transformative power of the gospel. One of the most prolific biblical authors is a person named Paul who was murdering Christians and Jesus got ahold of him and said, why are you persecuting me? Turn to me. And he did. My own story is a story of turning, turning from one way to the other.

[01:07:32] Caleb Campbell: And so the other interesting thing about Paul is he was engaging in what he thought was fidelity to his faith. He was, in some senses, an ethnocentric religious terrorist. He was doing terror things to the church. And I see a lot of overlap with American Christian nationalists who think in earnestness that they are doing something that is faithful to the scriptures.

[01:08:06] Caleb Campbell: They have a religious zeal of it. The methods are not biblical. The means are not biblical, but they believe they’re trying to do a good thing. I think Paul is same way. And Paul had a radical conversion experience. And I hold out hope for my Christian nationalist neighbor that they also will have a Damascus road experience.

[01:08:28] Caleb Campbell: Here’s the interesting thing about the Damascus road experience. is when Saul has this conversion experience, he’s made blind. He’s in a weak state. And then Jesus calls some faithful follower, Barnabas, to go minister to Paul. And so there’s some of us who need to experience and be faithful in the repentance moment, and there are some of us being called to be caregivers to those who have recently experienced a repentance moment. But in both of those callings that the Lord placed on them you see the power of the spirit at work, reconciliation, forgiveness, repentance. And then you look through church history and for your listeners, I would just invite you look in your local church, look in your own life.

[01:09:18] Caleb Campbell: Has the Spirit of God been active in ways that you can point to and say, No I’m trusting my Christian nationalist neighbor into the care of a living God who is about the business of restoration.

[01:09:31] Julie Roys: That’s beautiful, Caleb, thank you. And thank you for reminding us of these core values and truths in Scripture, and yet it’s so easy to lose them in the crazy cultural moment that we’re in. But I so appreciate you and I’m looking forward to seeing you in Phoenix in just a few months. Again, thank you and God bless you and your ministry and bless the ministry of this book. I think it’s just so relevant and important.

[01:09:57] Caleb Campbell: Thank you so much, Julie. I appreciate it.

[01:10:02] Julie Roys: Thanks so much for listening to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and if you’ve appreciated this podcast and want to support our work and get a copy of Caleb’s book, Disarming Leviathan, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. If you give $30 or more, we’ll send you a copy of Caleb’s book and you’ll be ensuring that podcasts like these continue.

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[01:11:02] Julie Roys: Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged.