Joni Lamb: Damage Control Disguised As Spirituality

SPEAKERS: Julie Roys, Lance Ford, Joni Lamb

Note: This is a rough transcript and may contain some misspellings.

Julie: Daystar TV president, Joni Lamb and her cronies are at it once again, trying to silence their critics and bury the truth, but making it sound. Oh, so spiritual.

Joni Table Talk: We’re pointing

Anna Kendall Table Talk: a finger, but

Joni Table Talk: we have

Anna Kendall Table Talk: all

Joni Table Talk: these pointing back.

Anna Kendall Table Talk: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And God gives us discernment and I think that’s when we see something wrong with others, that discernment is to pray not to criticize.

Yeah. And we see so much of the church

Joni Table Talk: divided today and that going on Rachel Lamb Brown, welcome. Yeah. There’s so much that’s going on in our world, so much division, but also I think people don’t realize the same measure that they judge. Yes. God will judge them.

Julie: So as Christians, are we never to judge, and is this how unity in the body of Christ is maintained?

Or is this just how Joni and Daystar are trying to vilify their critics and keep from answering for their sins? Welcome to the Roys report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Royce,

so just this week, Joni Lamb on her Table Talk program on Daystar tv. Recorded a program called Cancel Culture, gossip and Slander, how to Discern the Spirit. Operating and Joining Them was a special guest, Catherine Mullins. And on this program, the things that she said really made it sound like, oh, we’re never supposed to, as Christians ever criticize each other.

In fact, we’re just supposed to pray for one another and they made it sound extremely spiritual. On this program, we’re going to discern whether, what Joanie and the others on her table talk program, whether what they were saying. Is actually biblical and joining me to help us do that is Lance Ford, the director of Restoration Resources here at the Roys report.

So Lance, welcome. It’s a pleasure to have you join me.

Lance: Yeah, it’s good to be here once again, Julie.

Julie: Yeah. You’re becoming a regular fixture here at the Roy’s report.

Lance: Yeah. It seemed, it seems to be that way. I think because there’s just so much to deal with and you, you know that you and I, we’ve talked about this behind the scenes that it really, we can’t keep up with it.

It, there’s so much, it is like dominoes just falling, so it’s hard to keep up.

Julie: Yeah. And there’s just so much error out there. And so I’m glad that we’re able to do this, but at the same time, we’re gonna be doing exactly what Joni said is the wrong thing. ’cause we are actually going to give a critique because.

We do think it’s biblical because we’re supposed to discern the spirits. Doesn’t scripture encourage us to think critically, which would involve sometimes criticism?

Lance: Absolutely. And there’s that, that, that old montage, constructive criticism, and that’s what we’re after. But before construction, many times, especially when there’s error or there’s abuse.

Destruction has to come before construction. We really see this with Jeremiah that the work of Jeremiah, he said he came to root up, to throw down, to destroy. And then to build into plant. So you have to excavate many times before you start building him, before you construct. And that’s a painful process, but it’s a necessary process.

You can’t just start building upon a ruined foundation. That’s so important,

Julie: and so we’re going to do a little bit of destruction or deconstructing maybe what they actually talked about. So I’d like to just start and dive in to this program with what Joni says right off the top,

Joni Table Talk: so it’s easy to point out what’s wrong in others, but the real test is recognizing our own issues.

Today’s guest is here to bring a powerful reminder that good intentions. Aren’t enough. We must be led by the spirit of God choosing discernment over criticism.

Julie: So you hear that and you just think, wow. Would Joni take her own medicine there? Folks in, in case you haven’t followed this story, it started months ago when I began reporting on Joni and the late Marcus Lamb covering up the sex abuse or the alleged sex abuse of.

Their granddaughter by another family member. And then, that is if you haven’t followed this reporting, I encourage you to just go to julie roys.com, click on the investigations tab and look under Daystar and Joni Lamb and all the stories we’ve reported, but so many that she hasn’t taken any responsibility for.

So when you’re thinking, she’s criticizing her critics. Like you said in the last pod podcast, Lance context is everything.

Lance: Yeah, it really is. And that’s the thing. This would be a really strong opener for her if it were a confession, but coming from someone that reportedly turned on her son for raising concerns, and there’s receipts for that.

We’ve heard the recordings. This reads more like a preemptive shield. Against scrutiny. It’s not an invitation to repentance. And the problem is that when you put those words in the mouth of someone who, by multiple, credible reports turned on her own son, when he raised legitimate moral concerns, it really becomes what it is a PR tactic not a biblical admonition.

And, this is the thing about it is this round table of Joni’s, and, I’ve told you a, it’s called officially table talk. I think it should be called Fable Talk. Yes. It quickly lands on a favorite modern church leader talking point, which we see over and over, which is that the critics are the problem.

The Unity’s the goal, but it’s a bait and switch because real biblical discernment names sin. It holds its leaders accountable. Ezekiel 34 comes to mind, one Timothy five 20, which we mention a lot. What they’re selling here is selective discernment. Keep it inward. Avoid division. Don’t speak publicly about leader’s misconduct.

This is really rich, considering the reports that Jonathan Lamb tried to confront questionable decisions and behavior, and it was all only just to be marginalized by the same people that now preach against division. And so this frames public correction is unspiritual. It’s

Julie: really bizarre because in scripture never ever is Unity referred to as.

Excusing sin. In fact, throughout scripture, I think of Aiken who tried to bury his sin under his tent. He wasn’t supposed to keep any of the silver or gold that was taken from from the spoils of war, right? But he did. And God. Judged him. We see it and it sounds to our modern ears, very harsh, but it was, he wouldn’t wink at sin.

And so there were people who died, Aiken and his family, for his sin, for trying to bury it in the sand. And I just sit there and wonder, has Jonie read? The whole scriptures. I think she has, I think she knows full well what she’s doing because she knows that there’s sin in her camp and she’s responsible for it.

Lance: And this has become, to some, it’s an overused term, but it’s really applicable here. It’s cognitive dissonance. So this is a determinative. So this is a determined. Act to distance yourself from the truth and to ignore and overlook the truth in order to serve your own needs.

Julie: And whenever Joanie does this, she brings on, again, I, I call her cronies, Joanie and her cronies, because they’re really Yes women.

That’s all they are. Yes. They just nod and they say whatever the talking points are that they’ve been given, and so she tosses it to one of them. April Simons,

Joni Table Talk: The world has enough critics. We need to be a voice of hope. And we also, I love that we’re gonna talk about looking inward because we can’t heal if we don’t deal right.

Lance: Amen to deal, but hope over. Hope over critics often. Means silence the people that are telling the truth.

Julie: Yeah, they’re hoping that this whole scandal will go away. That’s hope. Just

Lance: blow over hope to deal to, to blow over. But look, healing requires dealing with facts not sitting on them. And this is the classic modern church leader move, turn correction into a private, quiet thing that never reaches the light of day.

We see this playbook over and over. But in Galatians two, Paul didn’t pull Peter aside quietly. He confronted him publicly because the sin was public.

Julie: And so next she throws the conversation to Anna Kendall the woman who’s been referred to by our podcaster friend, Ray Curry as Redig. But if you followed our stories as well, Anna Kendall and her husband were.

Key to covering up Marcus’s sin back when he had a years long affair with someone. And a lot of people would say this was clergy sexual abuse. ’cause this was somebody who was under him in the company there at Daystar. But. Anna Kendall was a part of that. And then the spiritual abuse that’s been alleged against Fred and Anna Kendall, by others.

And if you miss that podcast, it’s a powerful one. I would encourage you to go back and listen to it, but that’s who this Anna Kendall is, someone who covers up things that should be exposed. Again, Marcus Lamb was the head of Daystar TV before he passed away, when he had an affair or clergy sexual abuse.

That should have been public because one Timothy five 20 says that when you have an elder who’s sinning you, it should be exposed. So others should stand in fear. So this is a woman who has, she and her husband covered up sin and now this is what she has to say.

Anna Kendall Table Talk: God gives us discernment. And I think that’s when we see something wrong with others.

That discernment is to pray, not to criticize.

Lance: What we have here is a clear. False dichotomy in the New Testament. Prayer and public rebuke of leaders, it can coexist. Once again, Galatians two 11 through 14, and so this just soft pedals correction into private wishes

Julie: and correction in scripture often is public.

I think of Paul correcting Peter publicly because he wasn’t eating with Gentiles. This is something that is very biblical. Correction is biblical confronting one another. Is biblical as long as we speak the truth and love.

Lance: Yeah. And there’s many examples of it. Poor Peter but Peter was always opening his mouth.

I, I really identify with Peter. I’ve always very much identified with Peter. He gets it from Jesus too, right? Jesus could have just brought him aside, said, Hey, get behind me, Satan, but he didn’t. He said it right in front of everybody, exposed him. Here’s the thing that, that these folks that have such public platforms have to realize is when you stand up on the platform.

Publicly, and these things are done publicly, that’s where the rebuke is going to take place. So the rebuke is going to be as public as the sin was. As the sin has come out as big as the platform is. You can’t have one without the other, but they continue to, complain about it, and this is why they always misused and try to apply Matthew 18 to a situation that actually is very public,

Julie: so important.

And it’s so important for Christians to recognize that because this is used so much to try and take a public stand and deal with it privately, that’s inappropriate. It’s not the biblical way, it’s not the right way. The next person who comments, Rachel Lamb Brown and Rachel, I mean with the whole coverup of.

The alleged sexual abuse of Jonathan and Susie Lamb. Again, her brother and sister-in-law, their child, this is her niece. The way she has behaved throughout this has been absolutely abysmal. She has no platform from which to speak on this, and yet she adds her 2 cents. Here we go.

Joni Table Talk: I think people don’t realize the same measure that they judge.

Yes. God will judge them. Yeah. And so we wanna just not be critical all the time, be hopeful. Hopeful and bless people. Pray for people when they’re going through things. That’s good. That’s good.

Lance: Yeah. You know the, this is the typical judge not. Quote, being weaponized against whistleblowers.

And Jesus’ warning there in Matthew seven was not, was about hypocrisy. It wasn’t about stopping moral evaluation. And Jesus didn’t just say, judge, not that’s usually where the sentences stop. But he also said like in he also said, judge, righteous judgment. He called us to judge righteous judgment.

And so Jesus, when he says Judge Hunt, he says, don’t judge unless you are willing to be judged by the same measure. And and Rachel actually quotes that correctly, but what I would say to Rachel is, Hey Rachel, we are willing to be judged by that measure. We’re willing to. We’ll let the scripture judge you.

And that’s the thing. It’s when the scripture judges you we’re actually not judging you. God is judging you.

Julie: And when it comes to what we’re talking about, I haven’t covered up sexual abuse. That has not been my mo so I have exposed sexual abuse. If I apply that to myself, I would say, okay, Rachel, I haven’t done that, but have you.

And are you willing to look at this sin? We can’t use this over and over. It gets so misused, judge, not people always take that, that one thing out of context that Jesus said. And the thing is you can’t function and not judge. If you’re a parent and you’re gonna hire a babysitter, you better be judging.

Yep. Whether that person is trustworthy to leave your child with. When we vote for somebody, we have to judge is that person in that office going to be trustworthy With that. We judge all the time. We have to judge all the time. But the point is, don’t be a hypocrite in your judgment.

Lance: That’s it.

Julie: So now Joanie throws it to Rebecca Lamb Weiss, who from the stories that I’ve reported, Rebecca was actually appalled. At the coverup that she saw her family participating in, and yet she has gone silent even worse. Now she is touting the company line, right? She has fallen in line and now she is saying exactly what Joni and Daystar want her to say.

And what’s so sad is seemingly this is because Daystar, I don’t know, holds the mortgage to their house, pays her and her husband, their. Really generous salaries. And for this, basically from my vantage point and what I’m seeing, it seems like she can be bought and this is what she’s willing to say.

Joni Table Talk: I just think that we need to look at people through the eyes of Christ. The Apostle Paul says, it’s the love of Christ that compels us to preach the gospel. And if you’re not coming from a place of love your heart’s not aligned with the Lord’s. Yeah. And we do all things in love and without love, we’re just a clanging symbol.

Lance: I would say that’s true. Rachel, you’re quoting from First Corinthians 13, and if you keep reading, thi first Corinthians 13 says that love rejoices with the truth. Love that hides harm isn’t love, it’s image management. And we also see in Hebrews 12, six, that whom the Lord loves, he chastens.

It means that when God loves someone, he will discipline or he will correct them to help them grow in holiness and become more like him. And if they’re doing harm to others in the body, he will show love to the. Rest of the body by stopping what’s causing that pain and that destruction. This discipline is not a sign of anger or punishment, but rather it’s a sign of God’s love and his care for his children.

Julie: Very well put. And so again, in the context, this is all about coverup and yet. Listen to how spiritual Joanie makes all this sound.

Joni Table Talk: But what if your testing season is actually God forming his purpose in you? Katherine knows this firsthand, and she’s here to share about learning to follow God’s voice above all else.

I wanna touch on your motherhood and faith journey first, but I want to, after we get through that, really get to what we were talking about earlier, and that is, heaven’s perspective versus good intentions.

Julie: So here she’s throwing the conversation to her guest, Catherine Mullins, and she does have a powerful testimony of what she’s been through and how the Lord’s worked through that.

But again, she’s doing it in this context of, Hey, we, we really wanna get to this whole topic of, doing good versus just good intentions.

Lance: Watch this shift because this is, again from the playbook quote, God’s voice rhetoric is often used to sanctify leadership decisions and delegitimize dissent as quote mere human perspective.

And this points out a huge issue in these circle of folks. That is the voice of God is primarily a prophetic voice, or God told me the most assuredly voice of God is the scriptures. That’s the number one voice of God. And that, and when you go to the scriptures, for certain, and everyone else bearing witness around you knows for certain that God is speaking when you go to the scriptures.

But there’s this constant going to, and she’ll mention later that there was a prophetic voice. Apparently it wasn’t a human that was on her show that has a name. It was a prophetic voice that showed up. But that’s always the go-to. And that is, that’s the playbook. That’s the shift.

Julie: And that is taking the Lord’s name in vain to attribute to him something that’s really just a self-serving word for ourselves, which is what she is doing over and over again.

Honestly, and I text this to you after I, I first heard this, I’m like, man, Joni, at some point’s gotta be scared that lightning’s gonna strike because you cannot. Be constantly attributing to God things that he never said or ever intended. And not think that there’s, speaking of judge and judgment, I would be afraid of the Lord’s judgment here.

You just can’t do this stuff.

Lance: Yeah, it’s definitely dangerous territory to be operating in.

Julie: So then she throws it back to Catherine and. Again, Catherine has a powerful story, but at the end she, she brings it down. It’s clear. She’s been instructed. This is where we wanna turn this whole conversation to and so I’ll just play the clip and you can hear what she says.

Joni Table Talk: I wanna thank God that real sin is being revealed in the body of Christ. ’cause we need that to come to the surface and we need exposure of that, but we need it handled in a biblical way. And so at the same time of seeing this real sin handled in a right way, biblically, we’ve seen this. An intense attack of gossip, slander, and backbiting.

And it’s if we’re honest, all of a sudden we’re looking at social media and just what people are saying behind the scenes just about anyone. It doesn’t matter. I’m just shocked and I finally got to this point and I just said, and this is this is the thing that gets me, if you would’ve told me years ago.

That we would be seeing seasoned, what I would call seasoned, mature Christians, behaving the way that they’re behaving. I would’ve said there’s absolutely no way. It’s never going to happen. And yet we see people who have been godly for years, all of a sudden acting outside of their normal godly character.

It’s happening all over the world. And because of social media, we’re seeing it. Yeah. And so I’ve been asking the question, when did gossip, slander, and backbiting become acceptable speech in the body of Christ? And it’s like we have these mask vigilantes now.

Julie: Okay. The one thing that this clip is missing.

That I keep wanting for them to do and they never do. This is really define, okay, what is gossip? What is slander? What is backbiting? The legal definition of slander is that it has to be false. So the point is what is being said, false. I’m accused of this all the time. And I say, oh, if what I said was slander, then it has to be false.

Can you show me what fact I got wrong? And this is where people usually get silenced, and then they’ll just be, oh, it’s just wrong. It’s, you shouldn’t do it. But again, there’s no definition and there’s no real specifics that she’s even talking to. It’s just this general, these Christians who were mature and now they’re, vigilantes and they’re doing these awful things.

There’s no specificity to it. And again, it just seems to paint with this huge, broad brush, making it seem like any of us who publish. Online that we’re part of this horrible movement of Christians doing bad things.

Lance: There’s a lot to be said there. So first of all, and you’re right Julie, this, these terms, gossip and slander constantly, you, slander definitely by any definition includes a false report, gossip, depending on the definition that you look at.

Even hints at that too. Or someone that is not de dealing with an issue to bring a resolve to it. So they’re just talking about the story to feed off the story. That’s not what, and the people that. That these ladies are pointing to when they talk about these mass vigilantes in social media. Notice this constant and later on, Joni will bring it back up.

There is this real aggravation with social media. The reason that they’re upset with social media is because the camera and the microphone are now in the hands of the folks. In the hands of the people. And it drives them up the wall because before that there was not social media, there was just mass media.

And so Daystar is a media company, a media conglomerate. And so for so many years they were able to have the bully pulpit. They were able to have the camera and the microphone and be able to telecast, and the field has become leveled now. And it is driving them crazy because there are a mass number of people that are investigating and have boots on the ground and eyes on the field, and people that it are directly involved in these situation are coming forward.

And so they have a voice. And so it’s not because of social media. That these problems for these abusive leaders has come about social media, has exposed the system and exposed what they’ve been all about all along. And it makes them very angry that the power is in the hands of the people. And here’s the thing I would say to them.

Get used to it. It’s not gonna stop, get used to it. You have been found wanting, you have been measured and found wanting

Julie: a hundred percent. And this is why the Royce report exists because prior to the internet being here we had the gatekeepers, right? And we had all the Christian media who didn’t wanna report on other Christian, especially ones as big as ba daystar that have so much money, the secular media.

Really didn’t care about that part of the world. They don’t cover a lot of religion stories. Yeah. And so that’s why we exist. And interestingly on this story, I was interviewed by a major Christian media company, major Christian media company, and then that story never published.

It got quashed by the higher ups. That’s what happens. And that’s why what’s happening right now is so infuriating again. Joni and I’m sure Marcus before her were used to controlling the narrative and now they can’t. And now the truth is getting out and they’re being held to account. I am sure they have lost dozens of programmers because of this scandal, and it’s just gonna keep happening.

Joni, it’s not gonna go away. You can pretend like it doesn’t exist. You can pretend like these things didn’t happen. If they live eternally on the internet and all those stories are out there and you either deal with it and resign, which is what you should do. And allow someone to, if they want to take over Daystar TV and try to lead it in a righteous direction or it, this just keeps coming and you can just see it slowly devolve just like it’s doing right now.

It’s just gonna keep coming.

Lance: Yeah. Jesus. What, when you were saying that Julie the word is Jesus, were coming in my mind where he said you either fall on the rock. And it breaks you to pieces or the rock falls on you and crushes you to powder. And so there’s a choice. And I’ve, every time I’ve read that verse, I’ve always thought, I think I’ll take the, I think I’ll take.

Falling on the rock because you can, it’s a lot easier to put pieces together than it is powder. It can actually put things back together.

Julie: And not surprisingly, Catherine doubles down and the rhetoric gets even stronger.

Joni Table Talk: And when did we feel justified to speak the language of what I believe is demons.

And call it Christianity or call it justice. Yeah.

Lance: Language of demons. This is plain and simple. It’s spiritual defamation to equate exposure with demonic speech. In scripture. Calling out sin in leaders is not demonic. It’s the coverup that’s demonic. And you, myself so many of the other, whether it be Mike Winger be others Laura Lynn Thompson be Pastor Ray and so many others we’re bringing scripture and so we’re not coming in with our own ideas.

And so to call scripture, to call that demonic. That says something about you to say such a thing.

Julie: And not surprisingly, they paint themselves, especially Joanie here paints herself as a victim.

Joni Table Talk: Jesus said that would happen to us. Yeah, absolutely. He said there would be family that would turn against you.

Yes. He said that, there would be son and daughter and mother and and he told us it would happen. Yes, absolutely. So we want it to happen. But he said it would we? No, none of us want that to happen. Exactly.

Julie: Key point. Key point here. Jesus said this would happen if we pursued him. If we followed him.

Jesus did not say it would happen if you covered up the sin, if you looked the other way. When your own granddaughter had credibly, accusation, she had been abused. To look the other way it, he also said it. It wouldn’t happen. He isn’t talking about here, about it happening because of your own financial misconduct for spending a hundred thousand dollars on your own honeymoon and trying to get away with it, and then when it’s exposed, oh, then you pay it back.

The stuff that’s happening to Joanie, this is stuff that’s happening to her for her own wickedness. It’s not because she’s following Jesus. She deserves everything that’s coming at her, and she’s not a victim.

Lance: It’s a really disgusting reach by her to say the least. Jesus, as you said, Jesus was speaking of persecution for the gospel, not being called out for marrying a man that left his wife for you.

For the other things that you’ve brought up that it’s completely disgusting to. Amalgamate that with these precious words of Jesus speaking to people that truly are giving up so much to propagate the gospel, to equate that to what you’ve gone through. And make no mistake, that’s exactly what Joni was doing.

She was identifying what that verse a hundred percent. And it gets worse

Joni Table Talk: watching things from people that know nothing about situations they’re talking to who have anointed themselves to do absolutely.

Julie: This one infuriates me. This absolutely infuriates me. We do so much work. This is the work of professional journalists pointing out, very.

Carefully with documentation, with firsthand witnesses, with corroboration. That’s the kind of thing that we publish. And to have it be portrayed in this way. And then, the armchair investigators as so many. Are called. These are people who actually are very informed. They’ve read the articles, they’ve gone to the primary documents that we link.

They’ve, done some of their own investigation and this is what they’re bringing to the table. They’re not just like shooting from the hip, which is what they’re making it sound like. These are credible allegations. And, can I mention that our reporting on day start was picked up by the Houston Chronicle, by the Dallas morning News by Fox.

TV by people Magazine. This has been in so many different locations picked up by the secular media. They don’t just pick up gossip, slander, and people hit shooting from the hip. They picked it up because these are credible allegations that are documented.

Lance: So this is really a classic move.

You, you dismiss uncomfortable voices by painting them as self anointed or unqualified. And Joni does this quite often. There’s other episodes where she does it. And so in reality, scripture’s full of examples where God uses people outside the official religious structure to confront sin, whether it be prophets, watchmen, even everyday believers.

Look or a donkey being self. Yeah. Or even a donkey. Absolutely. Yeah. So being self anointed, that’s not the issue. Jonie, the issue is whether what they’re saying is true or not. And truth isn’t less true because it comes from outside the quote approved circle. And I wanna just say something else here. I, I.

I am just fed up, particularly coming from the charismatic stream, which once again, I feel like I could speak to that ’cause that’s my family. I am fed up with these folks that have a platform. That think that they are more qualified than others because they here, first off, let’s just get true about it.

The majority of them, even when it comes to theological education, the majority of them have no formal theological education. In fact, they put it down quite often. But once a diploma mill or a. Seminary that normally is not even accredited. Gives them a quote, honorary doctorate. They tag that on their names and they start calling themself doctor.

The majority folks look, the majority of these charismatic speakers and teachers that call themself doctor, they love to use it. In fact, Jesus mentioned this in Matthew 23. You love to call yourself rabbi. You love to look. That’s what he’s talking about. Everybody in the academic field know, and I have academics.

Everyone in the academic field knows that you do not use an honorary doctorate as a title. You can hang that thing up in your office somewhere, but you don’t go around calling yourself doctor because you received an honorary doctorate. But that’s what these people do. They do everything they can, just like the Pharisees to broaden their laces.

To Lincoln, the hymns on their garments. That’s the stuff Jesus is talking about translated into today. And so then they turn it around Joni, what’s Joni’s qualification? Joni, what’s your qualification that outranks you or gives you more qualification than people that are deep into the scriptures and have studied and have paid their dues in the word to be able to bring a word in due season?

I’m tired of hearing this and we’re gonna start speaking to it every time she says it that we find it out.

Julie: Yeah I remember my grandfather who did have a lot of education from my mother’s side hi. Her father was very learned and he went to, I guess my grandfather on my dad’s side, so my dad’s father to his Sunday school class.

And he was a man that didn’t have even. High school education. And my mother says that her father, after he went to my dad’s father’s class, he came out and he said, that is an educated man, because he realized he knew his scriptures inside and out. And so don’t have a problem with people who don’t have a formal MDiv or no,

Lance: nor do I.

Julie: But you have to know the scriptures and how to use them rightly, and Joanie has been using them wrongly. In such a repetitive pattern of using them wrongly, that she has disqualified herself from ever doing any teaching on scripture. Yes, she has shown that she will pick out whatever serves her agenda, whether or not that is what Jesus said, or how the scriptures in context should be interpreted and she will just use it.

And so it’s just, it’s absolutely grievous, but again, they just double down.

Joni Table Talk: And it’s not biblical. There’s nowhere in scripture that God calls us to hand conflict and accusation that way. Yeah. And then to get to the point where we’re broadcasting these issues for the world to see. It’s not a good reflection of Christ.

Julie: Boy, we hear this a lot, and again, they’re scriptures and I’m sure you’re gonna bring them up where we have examples of believers. Confronting believers in public. We have Jesus who cleared out the temple. But the thing, when they say it’s not a good reflection of Christ, I just wanna throw that back.

You are you’re right. I, the stories that I publish, half of them are just so grievous and do not reflect well on the body of Christ. But it’s not my fault for publishing. It’s the fault of those who are behaving this way. And if I don’t publish it, and this just keeps going and never go, gets called out.

I can’t tell you how many people have come to me and said, thank you for calling this out, because people are seeing it. People are harmed by it. And when it never gets called out, what does that do to the body of Christ? To think that God just allows this wickedness to go on. And he never calls it out.

Lance: When leaders build public platforms, the harm is already public. And we mentioned earlier Paul confronts Peter publicly Galatians two because the damage was public. James mentions de atrophies in James three, I believe it is, where he talks about de atrophies that love to be preeminent.

He wanted to be number one. And he calls ’em out in the scripture. Okay, so witness is protected by truth, not secrecy. And the heat that these leaders are getting is not from the world. That’s the thing. It’s from the church itself. They keep saying, oh, the, you’re making us look bad in front of the world.

No, you exposed yourself and it’s the church that’s calling you out. So just stop with the false narrative.

Julie: And then what the, they do exactly what is done so many times, again, we’ve said this before, it seems like they all have the same playlist. They try to make it sound like this is just personal.

That’s what this is. It’s just people. Who have some sort of beef with us personally.

Joni Table Talk: He doesn’t bring a grudge list. He brings a grace list. And so this person that hurt him, he just sits him down by the fire and he makes eye contact. He doesn’t even bring up all of his issues, and he just says, Hey Peter, do you love me?

And I think sometimes we get so hard on ourselves and our journeys and we make mistakes. Or maybe we’re the one who gossiped. Maybe we’re the one who slandered. ’cause again, there’s Peter in all of us. Maybe we were the one that was cri critical about the move of God. I know I’ve been very convicted about that in this season, to guard my mouth.

But he just looks at him. He doesn’t bring all that up. And he just says, do you love me? Feed my sheep. And just in that instant instance. He is, he’s brought back into the fold. And he’s reinstated into his calling. And I would just say to the people who are watching, if you feel like you’ve done something to disqualify you, I just wanna say the cross is so much bigger.

The grace of God is so much stronger and the Lord’s wanting to meet with you today, and he’s not bringing a grudge list like so many of us would do. He’s bringing a grace list,

Julie: According to her, if you ask for forgiveness you’re qualified. You, no matter what you’ve done, you, there is no disqualification.

You can just go right back to it.

Lance: So this little statement, this little pity statement, he doesn’t bring a grudge list, he brings a grace list. When I first started to say that, I thought, why don’t you go tell the scribes elders and Pharisees that Jesus didn’t bring a grudge list? I think they go, oh, you should have been there when we were there, and we were on the other side of that.

So grace in the New Testament, it never bypasses repentance in this scenario. That she’s using of, it’s after the cross, it’s after the resurrection. Peter has said, Hey, I’m going fishing. Which in the Greek, most scholars would say that it’s, he’s not just saying, I’m gonna go fishing today.

He’s basically going, I’m going back to what I was doing before. I, I’m going back. And so that’s the context and that’s the issue. G Peter is already repented. And that’s the thing is these people, and it’s just like what we saw recently with Mike Bickel’s sister in, in her quote sermons.

They’re wanting reinstatement without repentance first off. And reinstatement doesn’t doesn’t even mean one. Once you’ve repented and Jesus restores you, it doesn’t mean you get your position and your platform back. You get your ministry leverage back. That’s the thing. We’ve mentioned it before. If you’re a doctor and you’ve committed malpractice, if you’re a teacher and you’ve committed abuse, you’re done.

You’re done. You can go find another profession. You can go work in another field, but you don’t get to work in those fields again. So this grace, not grudge framing, it’s routinely used to just leapfrog past confession and the consequences that come. So good.

Julie: And as you say, so often used, this is playbook stuff.

Let’s keep going.

Joni Table Talk: How do we as Christians not engage in all of this? Because it’s so much and I feel like it’s everywhere and it’s just all consuming at times and it’s easy. Our natural inclination is to wanna know and to look and to watch and to listen, but what does that do to us? The Lord told me, don’t look at any of that stuff.

Yes. I don’t look any, I don’t look any at any of it. Everybody thinks you look at it because if they talk about you, like I don’t look at any of it. Yeah,

Julie: don’t look at any of it. And the Lord told her not to look. None of you’re supposed to look at any of it. The Lord told her, this. This is, so again, we’ve talked about this whole misappropriating the Lord’s name, but this reminds me again, same playbook when we were reporting on James McDonald and Harvest Bible Chapel.

Don’t look at the Roy’s report. When we’re reporting on John MacArthur, they vilified the Roy’s report. If you look at that even. You’re involved in that sin. It’s this over and over saying, you just should look. Le

Lance: Lisa St. Stripling said the same thing about the Firefly report with Mike Bickel. I don’t even look at it, but it’s interesting.

They always have a lot to say about this stuff that they’re not looking at. I, Joanie comes back and you’re a low level blogger. Stop it. Stop saying you’re not, you’re looking at it. Quit. Quit saying that first of all, but even if you weren’t, that’s not discernment. That’s not spiritual.

That’s a willful insulation. Shepherds run towards the truth. They don’t run away from it. Discernment is not disengagement. The right move isn’t look away, it’s seek the truth, test the claims. And protect the vulnerable at all costs, even if it costs

Julie: you. And this is where I would say folks, if any leader ever tells you, don’t read that, don’t even look at that’s dangerous.

And it happens to be about them, I would say go ahead and read it. And if there’s another side of the story I’ll tell you the other side of the story, but when they just try to say, don’t look at it, don’t whatever, or they’re not willing to answer the questions like I’m above that, they’re not above it.

They don’t have a good answer. That’s why they’re not answering. So as Christians, we need to be discerning. We can’t be gullible enough to be again played. And that’s exactly what they’re doing. They’re playing people and people who. They hope will stay uneducated because if they get educated, they’re gonna know the truth.

Lance: Yeah. It’s just not accountability. It’s really curated ignorance and leaders that refuse to hear credible criticism, they’re not being spirit led. They’re insulating themselves, so they. So they won’t be responsible for the truth that they’ve known. But the fact of the matter is they were there all along.

So they do know the truth of it.

Julie: And this is again, not biblical. It is not biblical to shield yourself from the truth. This is one thing I loved about the family I grew up in. My parents never tried to tell me, don’t look at that, or We don’t discuss that, or we, no, it was. Let’s bring it to the table. Let’s discern let’s be like the Berean who search the scriptures and see if what was said was true.

That’s our job as believers and more of us need to do it. More of us need to be involved in that. And so again, we don’t, we’re not here trying to be super critical. We don’t like playing the critic. This stuff needs to be talked about. It needs to be discussed. And Lance, I just wanna thank you again for coming on, for discussing this important matter.

And do you have any last thoughts be before you go?

Lance: No. It’s once again, and we say this a lot, it seems like the same tripe, the same playbook but biblically, this is why we’re calling for a different type of leadership in the church, biblically public leadership failure.

Always requires transparent public correction and stop it with the platform, please, for quiet. Because when you have credible reporting and credible witnesses, which the scripture constantly through that the New Testament calls for, was even in the Old Testament, it calls for it. We are following the biblical mandate.

It would cause our hearts to do nothing less than rejoice if. Joni Lamb, these other type of leaders, if they would just, fall on the rock and say, I messed up. And here’s how I messed up. I’m asking the Lord to forgive me. I’m asking you. To forgive me, I really want to function within the body of Christ.

I’m willing to let go of my platform, my persona, my image management. I have sinned and I wanna be restored to the body. We would rejoice. We would rejoice in that and we would be happy for them. That’s what we’re looking for. We’re not looking for destruction, we’re looking for restoration. Absolutely.

Julie: And I’ll just say to Joanie, if you wanna come on this program, there’s an open invitation.

I would love to speak with you. I haven’t had the opportunity and all of my reporting, I’ve reached out every single time. Joni, would you speak with me? Sometimes I’ll get statements. And sometimes they’ll answer some of my questions. Never all of them. They’ll answer the ones they want to. But this platform, I’m more than willing.

Joni, let’s reason together. Let’s reason together. Let’s talk about the facts about what was raised by your son, by your daughter-in-law, and look at the documentation. Look at some of the things that we’ve have on recordings that you’ve said. Maybe you wanna apologize, walk some of that stuff back. But again.

I would be willing to have that discussion, Joni. So rather than doing these programs where you put out these vague dispersions towards us, how about you just come on, how about we reason together? How about we talk? We’re more than willing to do that.

Lance: I would just add to that an encouragement Joanie, that you would take Julie up on that invitation.

She’s not inviting you to a cage match. She’s not inviting you to debate. She really is inviting you to sit down with the Lord and to seek the truth. And to seek honesty. And so I would ask that you would seriously consider that invitation that that Julie is serious about that, and that the body of Christ would love for you to accept that invite.

Julie: Lance, thank you again so much for joining us and thanks again for the way that you bring scripture to bear on these situations. So appreciate it and God bless you, brother.

Lance: You too. I unfortunately it’s necessary. But for our listeners, we’ve got some more positive light stuff that’s gonna be coming down the pike in 2026.

There’s a lot of exciting stuff that we’re gonna be giving it, it don’t, won’t always be just on this type of thing. We’ll be able to get on the solution side of a lot of the issues, and I’m looking forward to those podcasts.

Julie: Yeah, me too as well. And we’ve been teasing this, but there is a new website coming out, a new YouTube channel that’s gonna be much more on not just the problems, exposing the problems, which has to be done.

I mean it’s not pleasant, but it has to be done. But actually getting to the solution side and doing more and more of that. And speaking of which one of those solutions is the Restore conference coming up? I hope you all can come.

I’ve never seen anything in this like this in my lifetime.

Restore Promo: We need to be talking about spiritual abuse and religious trauma. This is a place where it’s safe for those who have been hurt in churches. It is also a place for people to learn more about how to respond to those situations, and it is much needed walking into the room, even taking the platform today felt so.

Safe. I, there was no nerves, there was no anything. I just, there is an atmosphere of support and comradery and love that’s here.

Lance: I think that it’s really become a kind of a refuge. It’s become a green pasture for people to come find one another and so many times there’s just solace. There is a restoration just in finding someone else that’s experienced what you’ve

Restore Promo: experienced, to know that there are people from all over the country, all over the world who have experienced these same things and they’re uniting in Christ for healing.

And I just think it’s a beautiful experience. It’s not that we don’t love the church, it’s actually that we do love the church very much, and that’s why we’re having these kinds of conversations. It makes me feel less alone when I can talk with someone who’s had a shared experience like that. It was so cool to see, the room is packed and folks are eager to engage.

They’re encouraged, but they’re also encouraging one another. And I believe that this is so good because the need is so great. This conference is not only for those who’ve been victimized and hurt, but it is for people who want to be the answer now to what sadly, the church in the last 30 to 40 years has covered up and those who want to be.

The on the cutting edge of how God is moving to vindicate to show his justice, to bring his healings. I just so believe in the power of story and we need to unite, and so I just. Would welcome any survivor to come and know that you’ll be loved. You’ll be heard. You’ll be seen. And this is just a safe place for all of us.

Julie: We celebrate what God is doing. We celebrate that the those that have been hurt and wounded by the church, that there’s a place that they can come that’s safe and they can find healing. And they can find community and they can be ministered to. We celebrate that. It is so amazing, and at the same time, we grieve that, right?

How sad is it that we need to have a conference? For people who have been wounded by the very place, the very institution that should be ministering healing to them.

Thanks so much for listening to the Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and just a quick reminder that the Roy’s report is listener supported. So if you appreciate these podcasts and want them to continue, would you please consider donating to the Roy’s report?

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