The ‘Most Spiritually Abusive Sermon I’ve Ever Heard’: Former IHOPKC Staff, Pt. 2

SPEAKERS
JULIE ROYS, NATHAN STEEL, RACHAEL STEEL, LANCE FORD, LISA BICKLE STRIBLING
(This is a rough transcript and may contain some misspellings.)

Lisa Stribling: I am telling you from this moment on, these stories are over.

Lance Ford: It’s just, it’s bizarre world. So first off, I thought of Proverbs 1813 that says to answer before listening is folly in shame. Wow. So she’s immediately showing her folly, showing her foolishness to make such declarative statements about something that she out of her own mouth says.

I haven’t, I don’t know that side of the story, but I’m gonna tell you the way it is.

 Julie: Welcome to the Roy’s report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Royce, and this is going to be part two of my interview with Nathan and Rachel Steele, as well as Lance Ford, addressing a sermon that Lisa St. Stribling, who is a pastor at Hope City Church in Kansas City that she gave on Sunday, August 3rd.

And she basically said that Mike Bickle, who has been credibly accused of sexually abusing 17 women, that he needs to be pardoned, that we need to get over it, that the whole church needs to get out of this business of exposing sin within herself. And it’s all covered by the cross and it’s all good.

And some of that sounds biblical, right? Like we listen to that and we go, okay yeah, our sin is cast as far as the east is from the west, but does that apply to biblical leadership within the church? Does that apply to a man who, by all counts now appears to be a wolf in chief’s clothing? We’re gonna address that.

We’re gonna go through this message because I know that a lot of you listened to it and went something’s not right, but I don’t know how to put my finger on it. So we’re gonna do that. We’re gonna put our finger on it. And I think too, Rachel and Nathan, given their background of spending about a decade at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, they’re going to give a very unique perspective on how this fits into that total picture.

So now what I’m going to do again welcome to Nathan and Rachel Steele, who we’re at the International House of Prayer for about 10 years. Welcome to you guys. Thank you. Hello. Good to be back. And also joining me is Lance Ford, who is our resident theologian here at the Roy’s report, as I say it.

But is the Director of Restoration Resources here. So Lance, thanks for joining us. Always good to be here. So picking up our conversation. This is Lisa St. Stribling, the part of her sermon where she talks about Mike Bickell. Let me just roll it and then we can begin the discussion.

Lisa: The church family, we have some personal business that we need to take care of.

We are going to discuss Mike Bickell today and the situation surrounding him.

I’m doing it on social media because that’s where the conflict was initiated, so that’s where we’re going.

 Julie: Okay, stop right there. Did this begin on social media? Did this begin just, two or three years ago, or did maybe this start several decades ago, right?

Nathan: Yeah, decades ago. It just, even no matter which way you look at this, there’s no way that this could have been initiated over social media in the sense of, or the abuse took place was decades ago.

Even if she’s talking about how the allegations came forward, there’s verification of several private meetings and appeals to Mike and then appeals to his leader to Stuart Greaves. The different rounds, the the people that brought the allegations they knew we wanna do this, the Matthew 18 way, even though we don’t necessarily think Matthew 18 applies to all abuse, we know that IHOP does.

And so in order to get them to listen, we’re gonna do the Matthew 18 thing. So we’re gonna go to Mike privately. That didn’t work. Then we went to the ELT that didn’t work. And so I just don’t understand how in, in any world, no matter how you look at this, from which perspective you can claim that it began on social media.

But yeah,

Rachael: the only way you can make sense of that is if you truly believe this is all false accusations. Deborah lied about her whole story. Tammy Woods lied about her whole story and the 17 women. The Firefly report all lied about their stories like that is the only way you can come to the conclusion that this started on social media is if everyone got together and somehow came up with this huge lie.

They were texting us Instagram about decades of Mike Bickle’s life.

 Julie: It’s crazy. It’s, but social media has become like the scapegoat for all things that end up on online. It’s oh, this is a social media issue, not a social media issue. This is something that happened decades ago and has been coming and let’s not forget Deborah, when she came forward, one of the reasons she came forward is because she heard there was a current victim, and I don’t think that particular victim has ever spoken publicly, which is how dark this is, that people can start to come out and then get pulled back in.

That’s what’s going on here, so let’s keep rolling.

Lisa: The things I’m getting ready to say, I believe strongly that the Lord has given me permission to say, and not only permission, he has sent me on a mission to give it. I want to say that very strongly. First and foremost, I want to bring clarity to the body of Christ.

That is my goal today. I have not spoken to Mike Bickle about what I’m going to say. I did not ask his permission. He does not know I’m online doing this, but I want you to know

that I’m speaking to you. I want to assure you that I’m speaking to you from the Lord. I’m gonna say that several times in here. I also want you to know before I begin, I want to say I’m coming to you as a mom in the body of Christ, and I’m also coming to you as a qualified leader in the body of Christ.

However, again, I want to state very clearly that I don’t need either one of those things because the Lord himself has given me a message. Amen.

Rachael: Amen.

Lisa: And he will be backing up my words. Amen. Say that very strongly to everyone. Yeah. He will be backing up what I’m saying here. Thank you, Lord.

 Julie: Wow. I’ve heard this now probably two or three times, and I, it just, it takes my breath away.

Absolutely shocking. I almost expect there to be lightning from heaven. That’s but yet, Lance, this is common. Like how many times have we heard this? I’m speaking for.

Lance: Once again, this is just leveraging, you feel like you have to leverage and emphasize, I’m speaking for God.

You better understand I’m speaking for God. I’m talking for God. I’m here for the, with the voice of God. People that really do speak authoritatively and are sure of their authority. I’m just sitting, I’m thinking, I was thinking that she was saying that, and I’ve watched it several times now too. I was thinking about like a Dallas Willard.

You never heard Dallas Willard get up and say, now you better listen. ’cause I’m speaking for God. He didn’t have to. He didn’t need to leverage that. I’m even thinking about John Wimber. Wimber would never do that. He didn’t do that. Didn’t need to do it. So by declaring that, God sent her to say this is a huge stake in the ground.

And once again, she’s using leverage. It’s this enormous declaration that means when she says the things after this. That are not only patently, fallacious theologically, but shows her own ways and means of picking and choosing which scriptures to believe and obey. It’s gotta, there’s got there and she’ll come back and say, now I’m speaking for God.

She’ll say this over and over because once again, she’s trying to underscore and trying to get the listener to be distracted from any concern that, oh, this doesn’t jive, this doesn’t seem no, she’s speaking for God. How can you argue with God?

And let me say this too, I was thinking as I first had listened to this a couple of days ago, man, I was thinking of several scriptures but Jeremiah 2331 really popped in my mind.

I, I just wanna read that. He says, yes, declares the Lord. I’m against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare the Lord declares. Indeed, I’m against those who prophesy false dreams, declares the Lord. They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies. I did not sin or appoint them.

They do not benefit these people and the least declares the Lord. So it’s, it is ironic. Jeremiah uses this phrase, declares the Lord as he’s rebuking people that go around saying, thus sayeth the Lord, and yet she doesn’t pull back.

 Julie: She actually doubles down. Take a listen.

Lisa: There has been a narrative that has surrounded Mike’s situation.

This narrative is a false narrative. The Lord is retrieving this narrative right now, this very minute. The narrative now belongs to Jesus. Amen. Yeah. Amen.

Again, I’m speaking on God’s behalf. I am not speaking on Mike Bickle’s behalf. I’m not speaking on behalf of ihop. I’m not speaking on behalf of my family. I’m not speaking on behalf of Diane. I’m not speaking on behalf of anybody. I’m speaking on behalf of the Lord Jesus.

Rachael: Thank God. Yes.

Lisa: I wanna speak to the authentic church.

 Julie: So I think she’s speaking on behalf of Lisa St. Stribling. Yes.

Rachael: And even if Mike Bickle didn’t say, Hey, Lisa, go do that. I can’t imagine that Mike is not in her ear, I don’t think she got these all by herself, and I have to laugh at the God is retrieving this narrative, this very minute. Because it’s just what

Lance: does that mean?

Rachael: So did God. Yeah. What happened in that very minute?

Lance: That’s funny you say that, Rachel. ’cause seriously, when I first saw it what I was seeing, kinda like in a picture and picture as she was saying that I was seeing Kenneth Copeland eliminating COVID-19.

It’s gone. It’s over. It’s over. I blow it away. It’s like you think that you have this declarative power because it’s something that you want to. Exactly. And I think, and if you

Rachael: make it spiritual enough, then people are like maybe something did happen in the spirit. I don’t know.

Nathan: Yeah. Insane. What were you gonna say? Just, it just shows like even you can’t just make a story disappear. That’s what? When she says that, I’m just so curious. I’d love to pause and ask her what was in your mind, like when you said that phrase, what’s actually happening to the quote narrative?

Yeah. That’s just gone. Is the abuse gone? Is this the story gone? What are you trying to cancel there? That’s a good point. Anyway,

 Julie: the amazing thing to me is that, I’ve seen this before and it really does seem to be people who live long enough in a world where they’re king

Rachael: and

 Julie: they get to define reality for other people, and they’re used to defining reality.

Wow. So they’re so out of touch that they don’t get, that the rest of the world doesn’t allow them. Like when she gets on and she’s I’m gonna say this for the global church. What the hubris, but yet apparently they’ve gotten to that point, and I think I, to be honest, I think it gets to the point of mental illness at a certain point where people are just so caught up in themselves that they think they’re God.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. All right, let’s keep going.

Lisa: In order for the church to go forth with revival and the great gift of offering the lost a pardon in the blood of Jesus, we must accept one ourselves. I want to say that again. We must accept the pardon that is being issued right now ourselves. It is the very fundamental basics of our faith.

When you receive a pardon, then you in turn give a pardon. Amen.

Lance: Lance, you wanna speak to that? Once again, it’s so audacious the statement and what she’s saying here, and folks might want to go back and listen to that again. She’s ba she’s saying that revival totally is being held back and the worldwide church will either get revival or not get revival based upon this issue with Mike Bickell, based upon whether we just say, okay, he he’s good to go.

It’s, I, at a loss for words at the enormity of such a statement and such a thought process that would say something like that, let’s keep going.

Lisa: That is absolutely the fundamental basics of our faith. After today, you are gonna know the difference between the false church and the authentic church.

Lance: She, that is the first true thing she said. I think I was thinking that too. But it’s just

 Julie: The opposite of what she’s thinking because it’s not what she meant. But if you are willing to overlook the gross sexual misconduct and sin of someone who’s supposed to be a shepherd, who’s supposed to be protecting the sheep, and this man preyed on the sheep, and you’re saying get over it.

Literally get over it. I think that is pretty clear which side you’re on. Yeah. Because Jesus doesn’t say Get

Rachael: over it. It’s crazy to be able to say. As of this moment, the Falls Church and the authentic church will be made known as if Mike Bickle being exonerated is the one thing that the church should be in unity about.

Yeah. Is

Lance: just,

Rachael: it’s wild. It’s one,

Lance: it’s once again, it’s been said earlier, it’s this constant theme of self-importance, grandiosity about everything. And very important that everything, and I think you had mentioned it Nathan earlier, that we really make a big difference, our church I don’t care if it was a church of 400 or 4,000 or if it is a church of 40, but to think that you make that big of a difference.

That’s some serious self-importance. Which Paul strictly warns against in Romans

Nathan: 12. And it’s just again, that we. Where do you find a Bible verse that she’s pulling from to make such a definitive statement that could I threw it at you? Could you choose one thing that is the marker of whether you’re authentic church or false church?

The church has been fighting over that for 2000 years, and now we just added another element called Mike Bickel to add to the, yeah. 2000 year debate on what true and authentic church is so audacious and I hate, it’s just pure arrogance, that level of audacity.

 Julie: Then she has some very pointed words to say to those who are making an issue out of what Mike Bickel did,

Lisa: speaking directly to the issues that concern Mike Bickle for the impropriety that happened many years ago.

Y even before I have IHOP started and to any story that happened many years ago that may or may not have happened. To the issues that happened and did not happen. Mike Bickle has served double what is required for him. Come on. Come on. It’s over. I’m saying this very strongly. It’s over. I’m not asking anybody’s permission.

I’m telling you from this moment on, these stories are over. They’re over. Yeah. The pardon has been issued to God by God himself, to Mike and to the church. If you’ll hear what I’m saying to you, I wanna speak to the grooming narrative that has went on about Mike.

 Julie: Wow. So here, no investigation of sexual abuse allegations in the church.

No investigation whatsoever. This. This to me is where I think of the word the scripture says, out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.

No concern for the victims. Zero concern. I can’t even fathom how this must have felt listening to this to be Tammy Woods. I know some, because they gave us both, she and Deborah gave us their very pointed words about how this struck them.

But the feeling to be discounted by Mike’s sister and then for it to be equated the grooming process to just padding somebody on a head. It was much more involved than that. And that’s let’s overlook him saying that his wife Diane’s gonna die and then they’re gonna get married. These are the things that he said, this is what we’re talking about and we’re discounting all the stories.

And then the fact and Lance, I’d like you to speak to this because. I think scripture talks about not listening. Yeah. To the stories of victims, to not listening to the vulnerable. Yeah. There’s some pretty

Lance: pointed stuff. Oh, very pointed. Seriously, in that 15 or 20 seconds, it was a complete hairball of multiple egregious statements that she makes.

First off, saying I haven’t listened to the story. I’m not gonna listen to the story, but I’m still gonna. Tell you what’s going on here. That’s, it’s just, it’s bizarre world.

So first off, I thought of Proverbs 1813 that says to answer before listening is folly in shame.

Wow.

Lance: So she’s immediately showing her folly, showing her foolishness to makes this declarative statements about something that she, out of her own mouth says. I haven’t, I don’t know that side of the story, but I’m gonna tell you the way it is. And then to say that these type of things should never be investigated by the church.

That’s a quote. She just rebuked Paul for writing one Corinthians five, where he deals with an illicit relationship between a man and his stepmom and his stepmother. It’s like stepping into a bizarro world to hear such things said from a pulpit.

Rachael: Yeah. When she said, I don’t care, it’s wow.

When I first heard that my heart just sank because it’s like literally, yes, you don’t care. And that is just not okay. It’s you. We don’t have the luxury of not caring. If we’re gonna call, especially

Nathan: as a pastor in Shepherd, we’re gonna

Rachael: call ourselves Christians, just basic Christians, not on a platform.

We don’t have that luxury to not care. And yes, the moment you think if Deborah or if Tammy or if any of these other women or your daughter, or your sister or your mother I would hope you would care. And I would hope that you would want other people to care. Yeah. And I would hope you would wanna investigate it.

And I would hope that you would want your vulnerable, minor or young adult daughter believed unless proven otherwise. It just that, that phrase, I don’t care.

Lance: Yeah. That’s beyond the heart of a shepherd. Yes. Beyond. It’s, it makes me think about Eco 34. It’s just, it’s the false shepherds.

Yeah.

Nathan: And the other thing too is there would actually be no need for an investigation if Mike would tell the truth. That’s the absolute I wish he was right. In an ideal world, we shouldn’t need to bring other, and other parties into investigate stuff because the abuser tells the truth.

And that would actually bring a lot of clarity to a lot of things. If you had come forward and we wouldn’t, we would’ve not had to do most of what we’ve had to do the last two years. If, when Mike got caught, he told the truth and real repentance the last two years of our life and the victim’s life, your life, the whole church life that works part of this would be very different.

Rachael: Yep. Yeah. I’m remembering a meeting we were in, or a meeting a friend told us about, seriously the first week when the allegations broke and our friend saying, why can’t Mike, if he’s. Repentant if he’s being honest, like, why can’t he just give over his laptops? Why can’t he do all this stuff? And the leader responds to him.

What like, would you just give over your laptop? And it’s we’re all

Nathan: like

Rachael: yeah,

Nathan: that would exonerate me from these pretty courage.

Rachael: If you don’t have, if you’re living honest lives, then even your, bad decisions you are not ashamed of because you’re being honest about them and you’re telling the truth with honesty.

It’s just crazy how far we’ve fallen as so true so far. Just basic honesty,

 Julie: all

Rachael: right, let’s

 Julie: keep going.

Lisa: I have had people ask me, does it matter whether it’s true or not? Does not matter. That is a demand that secular society is placed on the church, and the church is now answering secular society about the blood of Jesus.

Yeah. Period.

Furthermore, the theology declaring it matters is wrong and false, and it is not of God.

 Julie: Lance

Lance: you’re again our resident theologian, so this doesn’t take a resident theologian.

 Julie: It, I could answer this one.

Lance: This takes a children’s bible. Okay. Yeah. It seriously to make a statement and to say that the theology declaring it matters is wrong and false and is not of God.

How again, the irony is that what she just said is actual wrong and false theology and doctrine. It you barely even have to defend it. And then she, of course, she offers no counter theology to back up the statement she just made, we immediately think of one Timothy five 20 through 21.

But those elders who are sinning, you are to reprove before who Everyone, everyone. Why? So that the others may take warning and he, and then he says this, I charge you. This is Paul. I charge you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to keep these instructions without partiality and to do nothing out of favoritism.

It doesn’t matter if Mike Bickell has spoken before a million people. It doesn’t matter. All these big ministries, it doesn’t matter. He says, without partiality, without favoritism you draw a hard line in the sand. This statement is definitive and hard by Paul because he expects it to carry so much weight and she is just frivolous with it and very dismissive of it, to say the least.

Let’s keep playing

 Julie: that she has more to say about those of us who expose sin in the church and call it out

Lisa: to the narrative that speaks and says, God is exposing the church. That is an incorrect theology. No. God is not committing to expose, committed to exposing his family ever. Amen. He is loyal to his family.

Yes.

 Julie: Yeah.

Lisa: He does not go 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years back after someone becomes famous to dig through his own blood, to expose darkness that the father sent his son to the cross to die for. Amen.

 Julie: Again, what we’re doing here at the Roy’s report shouldn’t be happening. Shouldn’t be happening at all. And it is really interesting to me, and this is why I’ve said it many times, that people who are sitting in the pews are actually groomed to look the other way when there is sin in their camp and when it’s among the leaders.

Because all they ever do is preach. And we know that at IHOP it was constantly Matthew 18. Matthew 18. In other words, you go talk to the person one-on-one. Why? Yes, if it’s a personal offense, but we’re not talking personal offenses. This is the leader in the church who is preying on people in the church, and she’s saying, overlook it.

Look the other way. There’s a wolf in the sheep pen. Allow him to keep Right. Just ravaging the sheep. That’s what you allow and you look the other way. That’s the whole thing about the watchmen on the wall. Forget about that. Forget about standing for the vulnerable. Just let the wolf go at it.

That’s what she’s saying.

Lance: And let’s say this too. This is one of the things that’s really important that everyone understands here. She’s preaching a sermon and she’s making these declarations back. She says it’s the voice of God. So she’s proclaiming a doctrine. Okay. That’s, this is, this is big time stuff. This is serious matter. She’s proclaiming a doctor doctrine. Now the fact of the matter is it’s doctrines of demons. Because to claim that God’s never committed to exposing sin in the church, it contradicts several scriptures. God does exactly that. We think about anani and Safara.

They’re called out right in front of everybody. We think about once, and I’d mentioned it a while ago one Corinthians five where Paul mentions this man in the Corinthian church that is having sexual relations, most likely with his stepmother. Think about the letters to the churches in Revelation.

God constantly exposes these things over and over, and he holds the church’s feet to the fire. To do this. Yeah, the real key takeaways there is that God exposes sin to protect the purity of his people.

And public sin often demands public correction when it has to do with leaders.

Leaders are not exempt. In fact, they’re held to a higher scrutiny. James three we see that in James three one. So love and accountability go hand in hand. You mentioned it earlier, Julie. Faithful are the wounds of a friend. David said, let the righteous smite me. It’ll be a kindness to me. So we should invite, rebuke and exposure where needed as acts of grace and an invitation to repentance.

And that’s what’s happened towards Mike Bickel throughout this whole thing.

Nathan: Again, it’s ironic to me that she starts the whole thing with Isaiah six, Isaiah’s commissioning to spend the next 60 chapters exposing Israel. That actually is his message. And you saw the New Testament verses of just.

Then Ephesians five, we actually have a mandate to expose darkness in our midst. And so again, I just think it’s interesting she’s equating Mike Bickle equals the church. That’s again, the mind-boggling. We don’t expose the church. What does that again, what does that mean? The church is made up of people so clearly, there’s this mike equals the church type mentality that she has.

Lance: Yeah. So

Nathan: to expose Mike is to expose the church. And I think she says that at one point God doesn’t expose his bride. No husband takes pleasure in exposing his bride. It’s just a completely different scenario going on here. But when he, when God clearly does raise up shepherds and prophetic voices in the church, like that’s the true prophetic ministry is not to issue a pardon, it’s to issue correction.

That’s the true prophetic.

Rachael: Yeah. Is

Nathan: to call people back into relationship with the Lord and call people back to repentance into a vibrant life. And God, that’s the true ministry of the prophetic that she claims to be walking in. But again, just that audacious claim of Mike equals the church. And so God’s not gonna expose Mike ’cause God doesn’t expose his church.

As you said, there are so many verses that correlate to God’s gentle correction and exposing because he loves us. If God did not correct Mike, it would because he does not love him, and I love Mike enough and I’ve hopefully gotten enough theology that God’s still reaching for that man. And so out of God’s generous overflow of the heart, he’s actually raised up people to confront him and expose him because of his heart of love.

It’s because of mercy that God does this not in spite of it.

 Julie: Yeah,

Nathan: absolutely.

 Julie: Now she turns from saying nothing matters to, she actually goes after whistleblowers. There’s like some warning going on here, and this is where, to me this goes, the spiritual abuse becomes especially dark here because when you start issuing threats that God’s gonna get you.

That’s pretty dark. Yes. So listen to what she says.

Lisa: If he exposes them, then he must expose you.

And I’m giving you that warning right now. Yeah. I’m giving you that warning right now from the Lord. I’m giving the church that is continuing this narrative, a warning from God. You need to stop. Yeah.

 Julie: Yeah. The name

Rachael: of Jesus

Lisa: judgment begins in the house of the Lord. You say, one Peter four 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God.

And if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? The judgment of God only comes to the church. It only happens when the church does not receive. The pardon. Amen. Amen. Jesus comes to the door of the church and offers a pardon, and the church refuses his pardon.

 Julie: Now, I’ve been quoting that verse quite a bit about judgment begins with the house of God. ’cause I’ve always felt that this is where it begins. Like we cannot get on a pedestal and tell politicians and tell the rest of America what’s moral and what isn’t moral if we can’t take care of our own house.

Like it starts here. She’s saying that doesn’t apply here. Lance, speak to this

Lance: bizarre doctrine that she’s forwarding. I gotta be honest, and I’ve listened to this one over and over. I don’t even know what she’s trying to say. It. It’s such a word salad. It is. It is it. It’s bizarre. I don’t even know what she’s trying to say.

It only happens when the church does not receive the pardon? This is just beyond far from any Orthodox theologies, say the least. You guys help me, am I missing something here? ’cause I don’t even know what she’s trying to say. I wish desperately, wish I could help. I cannot. Yeah. I don’t really know what her point is.

Okay. Moving right along.

Lisa: That’s when judgment happens. Yeah. It does not happen with him exposing the church. I’ve heard that for 20 years. God’s exposing the church. What are you talking about? This is his wife. Amen. This is not something that he’s committed to at all. This is absolutely warned by God in the Book of Revelation to the church.

 Julie: I’m not really sure what she’s referring to in the book of Revelation about God, warning about the evil. This is what she’s saying is that it’s evil to call out sin and all I can see in scripture. That calling out sin? Yes, it says we’re supposed to do it gently and be careful that you’re not drawn into it and that you’re not doing the same thing that you’re calling out.

But what is she talking about in Revelation?

Lance: She’s trying to reference Revelation all the while Revelation is saying the opposite of what she’s saying. She’s she has referenced Revelation three 20 when she talks about being at the door. But this is Jesus’ statement that actually when he’s standing at the door knocking, this is concluding everything he said in Revelation two, all the letters to the churches where he is rebuking and calling the churches to repentance.

So it’s like he’s standing there at the door knocking after he is already said what he what is in his heart of what he’s trying to get the church to respond to. So this is a call to repentance, and yet she just completely just word salad ruins any type of interpretation she’s trying to bring forward.

Which just flows with, her mix of quote theology in the first place. It’s very bizarre and nonsensical.

 Julie: I wanna move forward to where she talks about pastors being disqualified in the church and what disqualifies pastors, she makes some very bold statements that I don’t believe are backed up by scripture, but here’s what she says.

Lisa: According to the standard, myself and my husband, both would be disqualified. Our team would be disqualified, our ministry would be disqualified. Yeah. You say you like the ministry when it serves the poor. However, this false theology disqualifies the very people that God went to the cross to qualm.

Come on. Amen. Come on. Yeah.

 Julie: Alright. This one, in some ways holds a little more water than some others because I’ll hear this all the time. For example, the Apostle Paul, he was a murderer of the Christians. That’s what he did. He persecuted the ch the church. A lot of people will say David, David killed Uriah, right?

Put him at the front because he had slept with his wife and made her pregnant. There are people in the Bible who have done horrible things. That God has then used in mighty ways. I think there’s some very specific differences though, in that and this situation. But I’m gonna withhold what I think on this I’ll let you speak first.

Rachel and Nathan,

Nathan: it’s interesting to me that she feels shocked that there are qualifications, the leadership, like it’s a new idea to her. When, again, through the whole New Testament, it’s very clear that there are qualifications for eldership. And she even says if, if our stuff got BA brought up, then all of us would be disqualified.

It is a, that’s a frightening statement to me. ‘Cause not all elders can, can’t say that or should say that. That’s the point of being an elder or a leader. Is, you should be able to say, look at my past and I’ve lived above reproach and I actually haven’t disqualified myself for leadership and the church is meant to gather around and commission them for eldership or leadership because of their reproach. That, it, Paul even goes on to say, your neighbor across the street that even may or may not have any place in the church, they might not even be believers. Their opinion actually matters if you’ve lived a righteous life or not.

And yes, 100%. I don’t, I, again, I don’t grasp what Lisa is saying because there is 1000% qualifications to leadership, not qualifications to getting saved. And again, that’s where she’s conflating these things and making them one issue. Yeah. You could commit the most horrendous sin and be forgiven.

Praise God. But you, that doesn’t mean you should be shepherding people

 Julie: because you know her. And you said she became a believer. After committing those sins. Am I right?

Rachael: Yes. And I don’t know, I have read her book the last vein or something like that, and I don’t know, I don’t know her full story. I don’t know if she would be disqualified or qualified.

I don’t really remember it, but it’s more just terrifying that she’s saying I would be disqualified.

Nathan: It’s it’s almost like you’re saying if we took the New Testament seriously, I would be disqualified. Yeah. It’s that’s pretty alarming. Yeah.

Rachael: Most pastors who are honest would not be saying that.

Nathan: And to the point you said about David, that’s what I heard a lot in the early days about Mike as well. Yeah. And I actually, with those people, I say, you’re a hundred percent right. David would not be qualified to be a New Testament pastor. So he wasn’t like, there’s a massive difference between an ancient King of Israel and a New Testament elder and a New Testament Shepherd. Yes. And in my opinion, God using people like Paul to do pretty marvelous things. In a sense I think there was, there’s these moments that God, ’cause God does work with what he has and that at the birth of this church, he’s using people that have passed and are growing in sanctification.

But then Paul goes on to write letters going, Hey, when you guys establish churches, here’s what you look for and the people to lead these churches. ’cause it really matters as we go forward for the next, Paul didn’t know how long, number of years who we have as shepherds really matters for the health of the church.

And now we are 2000 years later still dissecting these types of sermons and we go, maybe Paul was onto something, right?

 Julie: In

Nathan: David,

 Julie: if we take his example, one, he was a king and because he was a man of war, he wasn’t allowed to even build the temple, let alone be a priest in the temple. So there is a difference.

Priest and pastor are a little different roles. But at the same time, that’s a forerunner of it.

Lance: Look, we need to understand that a king is not a type of a pastor. And that’s one of the big lies that goes on in a lot of these circles. In fact, in Acts 29, it was prophet, priest, and king.

That was the metaphor that the Driscoll and a lot of the Acts 29 leaders used. And so these young church planners think, ah, I’m a prophet pastor and king. And they act like kings. No, you’re not a king. Moses was not even a type of a pastor. Moses was the type of Jesus. You’re not Moses.

You’re not David.

 Julie: And David was punished. That’s the other thing. Like we just overlooked the fact it cost him dearly. He lost his firstborn son with Bathsheba. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Like we overlooked. There were serious consequences for his sin. Yeah. And so when people bring this up, it’s so irrelevant, right?

Yeah. To this particular situation. Yeah. And yet it’s used over and over again. And Paul, that was Preconversion. That was preconversion. It’s not after I’m converted, after I’ve been given a role to protect the sheep to to be a pastor and now I’ve done these horrific things. That is true.

Disqualification, a hundred percent. But again, what’s apples and oranges all the time.

Nathan: Yeah. So what you’re saying is crazy that there’s a difference between being forgiven and carrying the consequence of a sin wild. Unbelievable.

Rachael: Yeah. It almost seems like people are shocked that there’s consequences for their actions.

Like going, such a

Lance: good statement, Rachel, when Lisa so good, when Lisa said, this

Rachael: started two years ago on social media. It’s no, it started when Mike Bickle. Cho made choices that had consequences. Yeah. And also when she said, people wanna dig through his past, now that he’s famous, it’s no.

He chose to live a double life and make himself known to millions of people while still abusing people. Yeah. He made that choice. He could have lived a secret horrific abusive life, but he chose not to. He chose to live a life of. Furthering his ministry and his kingdom and his name and his notoriety, while at the same time behind closed doors being a totally different person.

And so that person, the person on the platform is who needs to be held accountable. Yeah. Not, it’s not the same as the guy who’s living in the middle of nowhere who still should be held accountable for abusing somebody. But it looks different. You don’t tell the global church when he knows 10 people, yeah.

Lance: It looks well, that when she said earlier in the message, she was blaming the social media people, the Julie Royces of the world the Mike Wingers and the people like that been exposing. What I went in my mind was this was the the CEO from a couple of weeks ago that got caught on the.

On the big cam at the Coldplay conference. At the Coldplay concert, and then he comes out and says they shouldn’t have put me out. It’s really, it’s your fault. Totally. It’s your fault. You’ve ruined my life. You’ve ruined my life. Because you let everybody know what I was doing. That’s exactly what she’s saying, right?

Yep.

 Julie: Unbelievable. Let’s keep playing that. She has more to say. You cannot

Lisa: have it both ways. You cannot like the ministry to the poor and disqualify him at the cross.

God does not and will not raise up a harlet and then 20 years later, make her dig through her past to tell her see details to you so you can qualify her after she becomes famous. Amen. Amen. Amen. Or is it just the men that you’re after?

 Julie: So I, on this one, I’m not sure if I’m reading too much into this, but that last statement that she makes, is it just the men that you’re after?

It sounds to me a little bit like she’s trying to say this is just about mis injury or something like, yeah, people like Julie Royce and I had people say this to me before, like, why are reporting? It’s, it’s mostly men. And I’m like it’s leaders in the Evangelical church. How many women are there?

There’s not exactly that many women exactly. To begin with, but we have, I think we’ve been very fair and equal in how we’ve held people accountable. It’s not like we pulled any punches with Joni Lamb.

Lance: No.

 Julie: But I think that’s a little ridiculous what she says there, but also this whole idea about, again, qualifications, disqualifying, people pulling things up from their past.

Again it does make a big difference, doesn’t it? Whether. Your sin was before you became a believer as opposed to after.

Lance: Yeah. And that’s why earlier in the conversation we were talking about Paul, for instance and Paul talking about, he was the wor the worst, most grievous of all.

And we all have back, have backgrounds before the cross. And that doesn’t even mean after, after the cross. Everybody sins after the cross. But once again, we have to raise the level for leadership as far as what qualifies you and keeps you ed for leadership. And the scripture is not nebulous, it’s not dim on that.

It’s very clear on that. We’ve talked about some of that in this podcast. But getting to this issue of, or is it just the men you’re after? Once again, when you’ve got the pejorative to say the least. Amount of leaders, first off are men. Then when you find scandals, it’s mostly men. So that’s just the lay of the land.

And I think it’s excellent that you brought up Joni Lamb. If she was on there right now, as you go, wait, they’ve gone very strong after me. There’s not any picking their shoes. And it’s just the fact that the mix is overwhelmingly, most leaders are men in the church. And now let me say this too. You know this statement, she says you can’t have it both ways. You can’t like the ministry to the poor and disqualify the cross, man. First thing I thought of was Matthew 7 22 and 23, when she just says, many will say to me in that day Lord, have we not prophesied in your name and in your name.

We cast our devils. We did all these great, wonderful works. And Jesus is gonna say, I never knew you because you work iniquity. That’s the real work that stands out before me that cancels out all the great works you did is the work of iniquity that you’ve worked. So we can’t go around. And this is what’s always said, and this is why so many leaders in the church continually get what I call leadership immunity.

People say look at this great ministry he or she created. Look at all the fruit of it. And the Lord says, your fruit does not outweigh the iniquity. You. This is not

 Julie: the way it works. And it is very interesting because that is the antithesis of the gospel. The gospel is not, you do more good things than bad things.

Yeah. And yet she keeps bringing that up and it makes me really wonder, does she understand the gospel? In one sense it’s like this hyper grace. And then on the other end, she’s trying to say, we’ve earned a this, and this. And it’s, yeah. It just the, it, it is just a disconnect. Yeah.

The whole thing is really a disconnect. Let’s go more towards some of the statements that she makes about the Bickle family themselves, and again, why does he need a pardon if he’s innocent, right? So it’s speaking outta both sides of her mouth, but here she goes whole hog into how great Mike Bickle and this family is, and how they’ve been.

They’re the victims in all this. Here’s what she says.

Lisa: Amen. Amen. The family was set up, lied about, trashed, and misrepresented at every level. Yeah. Yeah, that’s true.

This family is a righteous family and has served this city and the globe diligently for 40 years. Come on. Yeah. I say a Hudson pickle. I am sorry that you have had to bear the brunt of this at the people, the hands of people that should have regarded you and to all the children that were involved in this terrible tragedy.

Yes. Good job. You took it on the chin. Yeah. Good job. To the IHOP leadership team that served during this timeframe that this information went out. I’m declaring publicly they have done nothing wrong. Yeah. Not one of them. They did nothing wrong. Amen. They don’t have to go fix anything. They don’t have to do it better.

Amen. They did nothing wrong. These are righteous men and women that have laid their life down for the cause that they were taken out. Un righteously. God saw what happened and he is going to vindicate you.

 Julie: When you hear this, that this never happened at all. This is a lie. And the IHOP leadership that covered it up, which you saw the cover up firsthand how does this strike you?

Rachael: Honestly makes me wanna cry because we would, our whole lives have been destroyed. For two years we’ve been rebuilding our lives. And I’m not trying to now be like, oh, we’re the victims. But I just wanna say we would not have just let our lives go to nothing if this was no big deal, and seeing leaders who we believed to be integris at the time lie to us, multiple different leaders at multiple different times was very troubling. And it was terrifying to us. We were like, what are we living through? I just remember having moments. On our couch in our living room thinking we’re in a movie right now.

This can’t be real life, yeah. You just, you never imagine it will happen to you. And still to this day, maybe wishful thinking or hopeful thinking or too optimistic. I have moments in my heart where I’m just like, Shirley, those people thought they were doing the right thing, or you just try to make sense of it because it’s just the cognitive dissonance between the people we knew and the actions we saw were night and day different, and therefore our brains were broken.

They were what’s, it was hard to process it because you just, you can’t make sense of it in the moment, which is why we had to pull ourselves back, care for ourselves, our faith, our family, our marriage and try to make sense of it outside of being in the storm. Yeah.

Nathan: But yeah, I. Say, we actually didn’t leave IHOP because of Mike Bickell.

Tragically this can’t happen. It happens far too often. Founders and ministries are caught. And that to us, that actually wasn’t. Now IHOP and Mike are so intertwined that there eventually probably would’ve been a wrestle through that. But as we’re seeing today, but the reason we left within three weeks or so, we made the decision was actually 100% because of how we saw the ELT responding to it.

It had actually very little to do with Mike in terms of his sin and everything to do with the way that the conversations we were in, what we were being told when we asked questions, the response, seeing how other people were treated when they asked questions. That is 100% actually why we resigned from staff at ihop.

And ’cause again, back then there was even an element of man, what if Mike is innocent? But to us, that wasn’t even the point. If Mike was innocent, the way they’re responding is still absolutely horrendous. And so that’s actually was the issue for us. And so hearing that it’s, it’s humorous, but I think of that part in the office when Michael goes, I declare bankruptcy.

And he thinks that that’s just oh now he can move on. It really feels like that, like this whole thing beginning to end even related to the pardon is just I declare Pardon? And then just yeah. Okay. That’s so good. And I hate to say it, but the reason we can laugh at Michael Scott is ’cause his whole character is built on disillusionment.

Like he has no grounded in reality. Yeah. And it’s heartbreaking ’cause this is real, this is a real person that we love and is actually responsible for people. She’s shepherding. And there seems to be that disconnect from reality. And so I just wanna say tenderly, she’s welcome to have that opinion.

Truly. Like she can think IHOP is hands are clean. But that doesn’t actually excuse anything. That doesn’t actually give any sort of I hope that doesn’t bring confidence to these leaders going if Lisa thinks we’re good, then we’re good. Even though she’s claiming to speak again. She’s claiming to speak from God himself.

Ihop, you are clean the way you handled it, and I just wanna say tenderly, the echoing voice around the entire body of Christ is saying ihop, the way you handled this was atrocious. It needs to be dealt with Again. Mike is a separate issue. The way you dealt with this is not how Sermon on the Mount people that are trying to live godly deal with a predator.

It’s just not, no matter how you look at it, it’s not. And so that’s what, that’s how I would, what I would say to that.

Rachael: And many people still at IHOP will say, but there’s reform and none of those bad leaders are here. And that’s just not true. Some of the bigger name. Not so great leaders are gone. Sure. But some of the ELT members that are leading now, were still the ELT members that were leading October, 2023.

So they were in the meetings when Stewart Greaves resigns secretly. And nobody says why And when Dave slicker, resigns secretly, and nobody says why. And it’s just, I think Dave actually had a letter, so there was a letter on that one. But there’s just all these decisions made Eric Bulls being hired.

The fact that IHOP has never once said, wow, that was a bad idea. That’s just like the, one of the most basic bad decisions IHOP leaders made. And so I feel like even IHOP leaders themselves would probably not say they did everything right. I really truly think they would have some ounce of honesty.

Hopefully

Nathan: there’s just this feeling if we say we did something maybe not right, it’s gonna crumble the ministry and it’s just and we said it to.

Rachael: No honesty is actually helpful. Yeah. We say in people trust, honesty.

Nathan: Yeah. We sat in Isaac and Morgan Bennett’s living room on November 3rd. And I remember saying to them, if you guys try to protect the ministry, you’re gonna lose all of it.

But if you actually try to fight for the people, it’ll make it. It might make it, we said, if you care for the people, you might make it. The

Rachael: ministry might make it. If you care for the ministry, you’re gonna lose both if you’ll lose the people. So true. And you’ll lose the ministry. Yeah.

 Julie: And it’s not just international house of prayer and their leadership that she vindicates and pardons.

She also talks specifically about Misty Edwards and what she’s about to say next to me was pointed right at me. So I felt this was meant for me. I have something to say about it, but let me just play what she said first.

Lisa: Yes. Concerning Misty Edwards. I’m giving clarity. People took an event that happened one time.

And turned it into a seedy, tabloid story. Dragging this girl through the town square on should not have done you. You should not have done that. Amen.

God will vindicate you.

 Julie: First of all, I wanna say that Misty is probably the most sympathetic character in all of this. Not that she didn’t harm some people, because I have talked to people who were harmed by her, and it becomes very complicated when you have someone like Misty who is serving on the executive leadership team and yet is a victim and she hasn’t come forward with her full story.

Some of us know a lot of the background of it, and because I want survivors to tell their own story and not to put words in their mouth, even in a situation like this, I’ve refrain from telling that. However. I did tell the story of Misty and Kevin Pros, who is a very well-known vineyard worship leader.

Hopefully now he’s not doing a lot of worship leading anywhere, because he shouldn’t be. He’s disqualified. But they clearly had a relationship. She confessed it to someone who then came forward and told me about it. But then there was all sorts of texts and different confirmation. And then sure enough, I was able to track down some video that was taken by an officer who found, who had actually done a traffic stop for a DUI with Misty Edwards and Kevin Pros in the same car.

And they both were inebriated. And, it’s very difficult in my position to, to have people that you feel for, and I talked to Misty numerous times, and she never. Admitted to some of the things that I a hundred percent believe happened. And this is part of the delusion of it.

And really I would say, it almost gets to the point when you see people so diluted almost to the point of mental illness, I would say it’s very sad. And yeah, I made the call to report it. Some people disagreed and felt like she was a victim and don’t you dare report on a victim?

I understand that and I do believe she was a victim. And but at the same time, I do believe that even victims can be accountable. And again, she was on the executive leadership team, and if I stop holding her accountable, then how can I hold any leader accountable? Yeah. In the church, because that was a very high level leadership position.

But I just wanna go to her talking about this being, say, CD and tabloid because. Was the story CD and tabloid? Yeah, in a sense that what happened, reporting on Bill Clinton at a lot of points was CD and tabloid, but there were, the journalists still did it because he was living that kind of a life.

And when people in the church are behaving this way, when leaders in the church are behaving this way, we’re reporting the truth and what happened and we, we can’t sanitize it. And when I look at scripture, I don’t see God sanitizing what happened. You can look at a lot of scripture and say, that’s tabloid.

My hope and prayer is that through all this reporting, that we will stop having the lives of our leaders sound like a tabloid. That’s my hope in prayer. But I think that the onus is on them. It’s really not on me.

Lance: Yeah. And the that’s the thing you didn’t, there’s this old. Billy Joel song, it says, we didn’t start the fire.

So it’s no, to report on it or to take the picture, expose the situation doesn’t mean you’ve created the situation. So it’s just like going back to what we were talking about earlier and about the guy that the CEO that was upset that he ended up being on the KISS screen or whatever. No.

The thing that made it tabloid was not the reporting. The thing that made it tabloid was the story in the narrative itself. That was true. And

 Julie: then Lisa says some just outrageous things about Mike Bickell, but these are the exact things that even some of the people that I would say are believed to be victims of him, but also have very much gotten behind and.

And been some of the biggest proponents of how righteous Mike Bickell are and Mike Bickell is. These are the same sort of things they said, and it was almost painful to hear Lisa St. Stribling say these things because this is a man again, who’s sexually abused, credibly credible, incredibly sexually abused.

17 women, 17 women. And this is probably not all of them. This is what she said

Lisa: concerning Mike Bickel, this is the most integrous filled, righteous man that we know. Again, one who has laid his life down so that the prayer movement could go forth across the earth and one who laid down his life for the cause of Israel to be ignited for the return of Jesus.

Yeah.

And just so the record is clear, this information went out the same week Israel was attacked.

 Julie: This one again, the thing about Israel, almost and again, we, this happens all, it’s a spiritual attack, right? That’s almost what’s almost always said in these situations. Now, it’s not a spiritual attack.

You did something wrong and we’re reporting it, but Lance did you feel like she’s trying to make this sort of conspiracy theory here?

Lance: Oh, completely. And once again, this is part of the theology that’s deep, particularly within. These charismatic circles is always tying things back to implying that a spiritual conspiracy is linking accusations to these geopolitical events.

To say the least, it’s speculative. It’s beyond speculative. Actually. It diverts from the issue of accountability. And that’s the thing is it is a diversion tactic. It’s completely reckless, theologically speaking. And once again it’s drawing and it is drawing people astray, but it’s particularly used as this huge enormous self import self-importance that we mentioned earlier.

When you’re tying this to man, this has to do with Israel, once again, very grandiose. So

 Julie: I’m gonna hit the next few clips just really quickly, but she reiterates her points. She doubles down. Again, one of them is on the pardon. Take a listen

Lisa: say to the body of Christ. A pardon is being issued to anyone who wants it issued over all the people, all that have been connected to this story in any way,

including and especially Mike Bickle.

 Julie: Unbelievable. Again, she almost sounds like the Pope giving people absolution. Who is she? Not that I think the Pope can do that. Only Jesus, only God forgives. But again, just over the top. Here’s the next one.

Lisa: I would not get emotional. It’s why I wrote this, but I want you to know.

I know this man, and what has happened to him in his silence over it and not defending himself is for the greater purpose of the body of Christ. Amen.

 Julie: Mike is not a victim and nothing he has done has been noble. You wanna do something for the greater body of Christ? Why don’t you confess what you actually did and own it?

Yeah. That would be great for the greater body of Christ.

Lance: Yeah.

 Julie: Now, Lisa Stradling speaks specifically to three different groups of people, and these are just breathtaking.

Lisa: Now I want to speak directly to three different groups of people, to the ones that had been in confusion over this tragedy. I’m here to bring clarity.

God is lifting the fog. Your work has not been in vain to the ones that are supporting the perpetration of these allegations. Namely the false allegations. It’s time for you to stop. Yeah. To the ones that are perpetrating these accusations themselves, it is time for you to stop.

 Julie: How dare she? How dare she?

How dare Lisa St. Stribling who says she hasn’t even listened. Hasn’t even listened. Yeah. To Deborah Perkins story, hasn’t even listened to Tammy. One’s story, hasn’t even listened to the many other women who have come forward. She hasn’t even read the report. How dare she? How dare she say these things, that their stories don’t matter and they better shut up.

That’s what she’s saying. Unbelievably offensive.

Lance: First off that she has that she. She said earlier, I don’t need anybody’s permission. She is issuing this. Pardon? And it can’t be lost on us. And I know we mentioned it earlier, we can’t let it be lost on us that there is no mention whatsoever of these victims, no concern whatsoever of these victims.

Now this is typical harling speak when you look at false shepherds. ’cause all there is a concern for their self because you use the sheep, you abuse the sheep, and then you just toss their broken bodies aside. There is no mention whatsoever of the victims. Even if she would just at least patronize the victims and say, as an aside, oh, I know people could have been hurt, or people think that they’ve been hurt or whatever.

There’s none of that whatsoever. Not an ounce. Of mercy or grace or concern for people that had been victimized.

 Julie: And then tragically, she basically says, let’s replatform Mike Bickel. This is why I call it Wacka wolf. It’s unreal, but it happens over and over again. A pastor’s disgraced and somebody else will give him a platform, and she’s affirming it.

She’s affirming it

Lisa: concerning the matter about receiving reports of ministries and churches that are longing to have Mike Biggle and or any of his former leadership team to minister to them in any way whatsoever. Those are wanting, those that are wanting to have this ministry in your congregations should feel free to do so without any further harassment.

Lance: Yeah. Amen.

Lisa: Amen.

 Julie: This is just plain disregard of the scriptures. Disregard of what it means to be a pastor and what qualifies you as a pastor. She is disregarding those scripture and she’s putting herself above scripture and it’s evil, it’s wicked. And I would say to Lisa St. Stribling, you need to disqualify yourself.

You need to apologize for what you’ve done, and you need to go back and figure out what it is that led you to this place and really work out your own salvation with fear and trembling at this point. Because she’s walking really close line, don’t you think, Lance?

Lance: Yeah. That’s very dangerous.

And once again she doubles down, triples down. I don’t know, maybe this is the quadruple down at this point, but she’s saying again, I, the Lord told me to tell you this. He gave me permission. To tell you, you better stop. So once again, it’s this warning, it’s using this leverage of I’ve heard from God and I’m speaking for God.

So yeah she’s really on thin ice, I would say, with the Lord at this point.

 Julie: So then at the very end of all of this, she actually likens what happened with Mike Bickell to a murder scene. And again, he’s not the one who’s murdered people. No. The one who sexually abused others. He’s, he is not the murderer in the murder scene.

He’s the one that’s the victim. He’s been murdered by what? By, by the people. He vic, the women he victimize. That’s what she’s saying. Take a listen.

Lisa: And in addition, the story that served as the on-ramp to get us to this place.

And the story that took place during the last two years perpetrated by others concerning Mike Bickle and ihop. And if I can use this analogy to the room, if I can, speaking to the incarcerated and the X Street gangs, it’s like a murder scene that went down and the guns went off and the dead bodies are laying around and everybody stands there and there’s a minute of silence wondering what just took place.

And then before you know it, everybody runs and they start blaming each other. But I one of the few. Listen, closest proximity to the dead body. I know the stories. I’m just telling you that ahead of time

again, and so I’m clear. These would be the stories that took place before. And in addition, the story that served as the on-ramp to get us to this place in the story that took place during the last two years, perpetrated by others concerning Mike Al and Iha. It should be noted that one has already stepped forward to apologize for their part of the false accusations that we for.

I’m concluding with this. I want to leave you a small bit of insight as to what I’m talking about in one particular area regarding the stories. There are many areas that I’m referring to though, let the reader understand.

Lance: Yeah. This is just, this is a overt spiritualizing tactic that takes place a lot. In fact, we’ve already heard her use Elizabethan King James English two or three times using the word y.

Yay. Yay. I say yay verily. Because this is supposed to up the ante. This is supposed to punctuate, highlight, make it in bold. Put a halo over it. Hey, this is spiritual law, so to say. Let the reader understand she’s dropping this little thing that’s mentioned a couple of times.

Matthew 24, it’s in Mark 13. It’s explicit evidence that Jesus’ warnings are to those that read Jesus’ words in the future. That’s one of the things that Mark says, let the reader understand this. The aside clearly is not something that Jesus spoke, but something that Mark wrote in those instances, and Mark assumed that the readers of the gospel would understand.

But Lisa’s using this ’cause it sounds really spiritual to say, let the reader understand. It’s just another

 Julie: tactic. And then she doubles down on the threat. And I don’t know exactly who she’s speaking to, but I think the people that she’s referring to. They know exactly who she’s talking to. They know that she’s talking to them and not so subtly saying, you need to be quiet.

You need to pipe down. Here’s what she says.

Lisa: I was sent a text by an individual demanding that I give a response to what was being said about Mike. The individual threatened me that if I did not speak that a slanderous story was going to go out about me, Ray and the Ministry of Hope City, if I didn’t speak.

That’s one area he spoke and he said that the story would go out globally. So we are fixing that story right now globally.

 Julie: Yeah. So if somebody did. Make that coin as threat towards Lisa and her husband Ray, to, blackmail them into doing the right thing or the wrong thing. That’s completely illegitimate way to behave and should be called out, but it shouldn’t be called out.

She’s doing the very same thing. Yeah. She is basically saying, you, you blackmailed me. I’ll blackmail you. And again, this is how ungodly this whole entire sermon is.

Lance: Yeah. That kind of punctuates, it’s the MO all the way throughout. And I think that one of the lessons that the body of Christ needs to learn through these situations is we need to learn.

And that’s one of the reasons that we do these reports. The reason that you do the reports, it goes back to the tagline of the Roy’s report, reporting the truth, restoring the church, and. We have to become educated on these tactics so that you can, when it’s happening in the midst of it happening, if you’re in a church or you’re under a leadership as it’s happening, so that you can recognize the systemic issues that are there and that you’re not rebellious, you’re not crazy, you’re not off, but you have to educate yourself and you have to know the word, and you have to understand godly leadership versus ungodly leadership and woof shepherds versus true shepherds lings versus the shepherds that Jesus raised up.

That’s why, Julie, you do this work, that’s why I’m compelled to do it alongside you, is not to be boisterous, not to just be flamboyant with the story and get clicks and locks, which is a lot of your retractors accuse you of doing it. No, it’s because we love the church. We love the body of Christ, and we wanna see it restored.

It’s just, it’s

 Julie: so sad and it’s so rare that people just come clean. But I do really appreciate both of you and your courage in, in speaking truth and speaking it to those who were powerful and who were above you. And I’m just very appreciative for that. Do you have any final words be before you go about to, to the folks at IHOP or to Lisa or to her church?

I’ll just leave that open-ended.

Rachael: Yeah. My final words would be what Nathan said earlier is just that we love those at IHOP kc. We built that house with you all for a decade plus, and we don’t love the people that we ran alongside with any less than we did 15 years ago. There’s so much, yeah, so much preciousness in our hearts towards the real people that built that place as well as the leaders that did not handle the scandal well at all.

And we have so many questions and we would totally get coffee with so many people. But yeah, we’re grateful for you, Julie, as much as I know your job is. A hard one. And like Nathan said, it’d be awesome if you were out of a job. That’d be a good problem to have. But we’re grateful. We’re grateful that the church is being cared for that there’s people out there that care enough to actually say, no, the church should be the safest place.

And unfortunately, that’s not been the case. I think you

 Julie: said the best. I say I do report on some of these horrible things and some of the worst in the church, but I also get to work with some of the best and the folks that come forward and speak out and both of you, I would put in that category and your heart for the church, your love for truth, everything.

It shows. And so thank you. And I know we have kept you a long time and you have. Three littles at home that you need to get to. But I just wanna thank you so much for taking the time and for your perspective, which has just been invaluable. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys. It’s been a,

Rachael: now I finally got to meet the person that blew my mind with that message

Lance: oh it’s good to meet you guys.

Let me just say to you I’m excited that you guys are pursuing your your work at Asbury. You’re very man way. What are you guys like? 31, 32. How old are you? 35, 32. You’re wise beyond your years and these what you’ve gone through, you are gonna, you’re gonna have an incredible ministry that’s gonna help so many people whether you call it a formal ministry, billions ministry or not.

Billions.

 Julie: Billions. Exactly.

Lance: It’ll help billions maybe. Indeed. But seriously, you’re wi I wish I was as wise as you are when I was your age, so you’re gonna use this. The Lord’s gonna just gonna come compress this and do some amazing things in your life and you’re gonna be so valuable to so many people and in, in discipling in other ways.

So I just sense that as you were talking. So you guys thank you so much. Wish we didn’t have

Rachael: to rush out, but gotta go. Yeah, we’ll go. We’ll, just some P

Lance: 39 together someday.

Rachael: Oh,

Lance: keep you

 Julie: up

Lance: on

 Julie: that. Blessings and thanks so much.

Again, thanks so much for listening to the Roy’s report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the. I’m Julie Roys, and just a quick reminder that the Roy’s report is listener supported. So if you appreciate these podcasts and want them to continue, would you please consider donating to the Roys report?

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