The Heretical Submission Doctrine of Jimmy Evans & Joni Lamb

SPEAKERS:
Julie Roys, Lance Ford

Note: This is an unedited transcript and may contain errors. An edited transcript will be posted soon.

Julie: [00:00:00] What is the proper role of submission and authority in the church? The question has become a hot topic after we released audio from a meeting in which Daystar president Joni Lamb and her ally Jimmy Evans pummeled Joni’s son Jonathan and his wife Susie with an absolute demand they submit.

Jimmy Evans: The submission means she’s the voice of God to you.

What she says is God in Daystar this is the voice of God in Daystar network mean I wait a minute, John, I have she’s the voice of God in Daystar. No. She is God’s voice to you here on this property and related to Daystar network. She is God’s voice. You submit to her with a right spirit, you submit.

You have to submit. Either you submit or you don’t.

Joni Lamb: We’ll leave if you don’t submit to me. I will submit to me. You’ll submit to my authority. That’s all. I don’t want to hear anything else. Yes, mom. I’ll submit to you.

Jimmy Evans: Whatever she says moving forward is God.

Julie: Welcome to the Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church.

I’m Julie Roys. And on this podcast, we’re going to examine that meeting between Joni, [00:01:00] Jimmy, Jonathan, and Susie. There’s a doctrine Joni Lamb and Jimmy Evans expressed in that meeting, but is it a biblical doctrine? Where did it originate and who’s been promoting it? And for what purpose? And joining me to discuss these issues is veteran pastor, church planner, and author Lance Ford.

For decades, Lance has been challenging the conventional wisdom in the church on leadership. governance and accountability. And I think you’ll find his analysis eye opening. But just a quick note for those who may not have been following what’s happening at Daystar. In a nutshell, the controversy involves allegations by Jonathan and Susie Lamb that Jonathan’s mother, Joni Lamb, covered up the sexual abuse of the couple’s daughter.

Jonathan and Susie also alleged that because they refused to violate their conscience and read a comment praising Joni’s recent marriage to Doug Weiss, Joni fired Susie, and because Jonathan wouldn’t sign an NDA, Daystar fired him. Joni, of course, denies the [00:02:00] allegations. She says Jonathan is just upset that she was made president of Daystar instead of him.

I’ll be referring to this controversy in my discussion with Lance, but if you’ve missed these stories and want to catch up, I julieroys, spelled R O Y S dot com. That’s julieroys. com. We’ll get to my discussion with Lance in just a moment. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, the Restore Conference and Marcorta Barrington.

If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church. But the Restore Conference this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona.

It’s designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary DeMoose and Dr. David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author [00:03:00] of A Church Called Toe, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more.

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Again, joining me is Lance Ford, a veteran pastor, church planter, and consultant. He’s also the author of several books, including one of my very favorite, Unleader, Reimagining Leadership and Why We Must. And more recently, Lance wrote the Atlas Factor, Sifting Leadership onto the Shoulders of Jesus. So Lance, welcome.

It is just such a pleasure to have you.

Lance Ford: [00:04:00] Always good to visit with you, Julie.

Julie: And I forgot your most important title, and that is being a board member for the Roy’s Report.

Lance Ford: That’s, that is the big title. That’s the one that’s on my gold card. So yeah.

Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And that gets you the big bucks too. It

Lance Ford: does. I don’t even

Julie: know where I’m going to spend it all.

Just so you know, folks, there is no payment to be on the Roy’s report. Just and there is no

Lance Ford: company jet that we get to go to Tahiti on or anything either.

Julie: Yeah, we still haven’t bought that company jet yet. Looking for the best deal.

Lance Ford: So

Julie: yeah you keep doing that. You find our 999 jet and we’re good.

We’re going to dig into this meeting, just a crazy meeting, really, between Joni Lam and Jimmy Evans and then Joni’s son, Jonathan and Susie Lam. Of course, people know Joni is the president of Daystar, and if you’ve been following my reporting, really, it’s a tragic story where Jonathan and Susie allege that their daughter was [00:05:00] sexually abused by a family member and then Joni and Marcus, her late husband, who were, they were both co founders of Daystar Ministry that they allegedly covered it up.

Of course they deny that but there’s Some significant evidence, including there was an internal investigation that they say cleared this family member and the actual person who conducted that investigation says, no, that’s not not what happened. In addition to that is something that we’ll hear.

And if you’ve listened to the Jimmy Evans and Joni lamb again, this was a meeting that they had. After there was another issue that came to the forefront, and that was after Marcus died, Joanie remarried, and she remarried a man who filed for divorce from his wife just two months after Marcus died.

And this was Doug Weiss, who was a frequent guest on Daystar and knew the Lambs very well, knew Marcus and Joanie. And a lot of [00:06:00] people saying there wasn’t a biblical reason to divorce his wife. And so that became a matter of contention and one of conscience between Jonathan and Susie because they were asked at one point to read this comment which was praising Joni’s marriage to Doug Weiss and they refused to do it.

We’re going to be digging into that. Not so much because of the issues I just said. These are a part of my reporting and if you haven’t read those articles, I encourage you to go back and read those. They’re all at my website, Julie Roy, spelled R O Y S dot com. You can read those there, but we’re going to be dissecting this, not because we want to be mean.

To Joni and to Jimmy. But there’s something much larger I would say more insidious going on in some of this meeting. And I think it’s not just the kind of bad theology that happens in private meetings. This happens on pulpits, it happens on tv, which I hate to say, but on Christian tv there’s an awful lot of it.

And so I think we [00:07:00] need to confront this. I think it’s important to do lance I know you came to me passionate about this. Why is this an issue for you that you want to address? A

Lance Ford: couple of reasons, at least. First off, we are called to combat false doctrine. We’re told to do that.

First Timothy 1, we’re to expose false in fact, Paul says false doctrines and myths. And there’s a lot of myths that become treated like doctrine. And in all streams of the church and one thing that enough Christians do not do today is follow the model of the Bereans in Acts 17 where the Bereans would search the scriptures daily to see if the things that they were being taught were true.

We need to do that. And the fact that we don’t, and the fact that we really have become a quite biblically illiterate form of Christianity today. Most people [00:08:00] just go to the podcast or they go to the YouTubes or they go to their favorite television preacher and they don’t check the scripture. So they just believe what they’re being taught.

And so when we listen to what takes place in this particular meeting, it becomes a real masterclass on the use of one of the most prevalent false doctrines of today. This widely believed among Charismatic Christians, first of all but it’s seeped into all streams of the church. And this is called the, this is the doctrine, and I’m going to call it a doctrine, a false doctrine of covering and submission.

And it’s, this is especially important for Daystar Julie, because they claim not only to be a ministry, but they claim tax status as a church. So they claim to be a church. Okay, if you claim to be a church, that means you have to then you’re claiming to operate under the headship of Jesus as a [00:09:00] church.

And just listening to this one audio that, it actually is a, it’s an hour and a half segment. You really see the use of this false doctrine. Called covering and submission, and I felt like it’s important that we break it down because I know that a lot of Christians, they’ve grown up in churches like this.

There’s even staff members that would be watching this episode that we’re doing today that just are not equipped theologically and scripturally to be able to stand against this false doctrine. And they probably, many of them may have even believed it must be true because everybody’s been teaching it for decades.

Julie: And let’s talk about the players on this tape as well. We know Joni Lamb is the president of Daystar. Jimmy Evans is he runs a ministry called XO Marriage, but I got to know Jimmy Evans when I was reporting on Mark Driscoll because he was one of these, what was it, like wise counsel [00:10:00] for Mark Driscoll and the wisest counsel for Mark Driscoll would have been telling him he’s disqualified from ministry.

So I’ve had my eye on Jimmy Evans for a long time because I’m like anybody that would replatform Mark Driscoll knowing that he’s never repented. He’s never made things right with all the people he harmed at Mars Hill. This cannot be a wise person. And so I’ve been waiting for something to happen regarding Jimmy Evans because there’s just not good fruit.

More about him and his past than I do.

Lance Ford: Jimmy Evans also was on staff for a long time and has a long history with Robert Morris at Gateway. In fact, he had the honorific title of Senior Apostolic Pastor. a gateway which I’m still looking for the scripture that shows that title.

Julie: They’ve gotten rid of it now. They decided, and it was interesting. It was almost like a pragmatic art argument. Like it’s not, it doesn’t work well here for us. But yeah apostolic, Elder. [00:11:00] Senior. Senior. Senior. Elder. And we make fun of the Catholics and the Pope and everything else and, we have

Lance Ford: these

Julie: titles.

Lance Ford: But see, here’s the thing, these honorific titles, and this once again, this goes back to the first Timothy of exposing false doctrines and myths. These things have become so normalized in the Catholic Church and in the Protestant Evangelical Christianity, that people, when you call it out as not being scriptural, they think something’s wrong with you.

When all along it goes against, Jesus clearly said in Matthew 23, he said, don’t call yourself father. of Catholic. That’s what they call their leaders, his father. He said, don’t call yourself rabbi, don’t call yourself teacher. And you say wait, isn’t it? Aren’t we supposed to be teachers? Yes, but we’re not to carry titles.

That’s the thing. It’s function, not title. And he says, don’t call [00:12:00] yourself to be, don’t call yourself leaders. This is Matthew 23. This is Jesus. And then he, tags it by saying, because you’re all brothers and sisters. So that’s the way that the church is to operate as a family, not through hierarchy. It means that people have different gifts and they have different strengths in those gifts, but we’re not to operate by rank, we’re to operate by role.

That’s how a family operates.

Julie: It’s so odd, then, how we do this because we give so many titles in the church, and it’s rare that you don’t, that you have a church where there, there isn’t that kind of title. I’m trying to think of a denomination that doesn’t have some sort of title, bishops or, these sorts of things.

Lance Ford: Yeah, it’s very hard to find. You almost have to get to the Quakers, the Friends Church and everything and really see. Brothers and sisters, and this is the language that they use, but see, this all contradicts directly right off the bat. What Jesus says in Matthew 20, when he, when the disciples are jockeying for position, James and John’s mom comes up to Jesus and [00:13:00] says, Hey, you’re about to be inaugurated as president.

Can I be the secretary of the Navy? Can I be the right, the speaker of the house and all that? Can my sons have these positions? positions. And of course, the rest of the guys get mad about it. And Jesus calls them to him. And he very sternly says, that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over one another and that they are great exercise authority upon them, but it will not be this way among you.

And so he directly right there says, you do not use power and strength and you don’t use authority. to dominate one another. This is a commandment by Jesus, but this commandment is constantly ignored. We put our thumb up at Jesus and particularly you’re really going to see it just come. And that’s why I say this is a masterclass.

Julie: Oh man, is it? It’s a

Lance Ford: masterclass on ignoring Jesus. And it’s a masterclass on this false doctrine of covering and submission.

Julie: Yeah. And I [00:14:00] would say spiritual abuse as well, because this is the twisting of scripture for the benefit of someone who wants power and wants to dominate someone else. That’s what’s going on here.

So let’s, we’re just going to be working through some of these clips because they’re just they’re gold. If you want an example of this, so this first one this is Jimmy Evans you’ll hear speaking and he is speaking to Jonathan and Susie who again refused to read a card. It was a viewer comment praising Joni’s marriage to Doug Weiss and Jonathan and Susie said, you know what?

We disagree with the marriage and this is going to be tacit approval. We’re not going to Read this card. And this is what happens.

Jimmy Evans: So do you feel that she’s in an adulterous relationship?

Suzi Lamb: No, that’s not why we didn’t do that.

Jimmy Evans: You do feel that way? Do you feel like she’s in an adulterous relationship?

Jonathan Lamb: Oh, I think God’s the judge of that.

I can’t really say for sure. You’re [00:15:00] judging.

Jimmy Evans: Your refusal to read that. That’s not

Suzi Lamb: because of that.

Julie: So judging. This is a cardinal no. We hear this all the time. I hear this all the time. And usually they’ll throw in Matthew 7 with that too. Do not judge or you will be judged, right? How do you respond?

And by the way, I will say, I think poor Jonathan and Susie, can you imagine being in front of your mom and being grilled? Do you think she’s in an adulterous relationship? I think that is, their position, but I think pretty hard to say when you’re right there, especially with the, the apostolic elder.

Lance Ford: We’ll deal with Romans 13 here in a few minutes because Jimmy will bring it up which they always bring Romans 13 up. What’s forgotten so often is after 13 comes to the number 14. Okay, so we have Romans 14. Now before 13 comes to the number 12. And so in Romans 12, Paul is dealing with relational aspects of the church and how the church is supposed to bring its [00:16:00] giftings together and its different callings.

In fact, our Early on in Romans 12, he says don’t be swayed by the world’s way of doing things. Don’t be conformed to the world’s ways, but, be sober minded, offer yourself up as a living sacrifice. And then he starts talking about the different gifts in the body and he says, don’t let anyone get puffed up thinking that their gift is better than one another.

be sober minded, and he’s talking about the body working together. So he’s dealing with the body politic there. Then he moves to Romans 13 and starts talking about, he says, let every soul be under the governing authorities. So Romans 13 has to do with civil authority. Every scholar says that. Every scholar No one disputes it’s about civil authority.

In fact, the word there for authority, not one place is it used anywhere in the New Testament dealing with it. Church leaders or [00:17:00] governmental authority. Now, one time are they ever given the opportunity to use that word is not used. One time. The only time it’s really used as far as the people of God is when Jesus tells his disciples, you have authority over demons and disease.

So it’s not used. In fact, Matthew 20 that we read earlier, Jesus said, the Gentiles, the world system practices authority over one another. This will not be done among you. That’s ignored once again, but now we get to Romans 14. And this has to deal with conscious and Paul goes into great detail. And the example he uses at the time was the meat in the markets that had been offered up to idols, right?

And so it’s basically it would be like day old donuts. We’re going and buying day old, meat. It’s, hey, these idols aren’t alive, so the meat just laid there and it didn’t get used. So you could go down to the market and you could buy a cheaper cut of meat that was good meat. It had just laid on an altar for a [00:18:00] day.

And some people would go buy it because it was a good deal. And there were Christians that were like, hey, that was offered up to an idol. It’s a sin if you do that. And some people were like, no, idols are nothing. It means nothing. I’m getting a good deal. Praise God. And there. So these people are arguing with one another and it becomes this rift.

And Paul uses this example and saying, look, if you have faith, in other words, if you can go buy that meat and you can eat it and it doesn’t twinge your conscience. You’re like, you totally have faith in that God has no problem with it. He says, eat away, go have a barbecue. Now, if you don’t have that faith, and if you’re distinctly bothered by it, don’t do it.

If you are unsure, but your conscience is eh, The very last verse of Romans 14 says what’s not a faith is sin. So if you can’t do it in full faith, if you’re just like, I just don’t know if this would [00:19:00] please God, I just, then he says, if you do it. Then it is sin. And he already says early in Romans 14, he says, don’t judge one another’s conscience.

So the irony here is that Jimmy Evans is accusing Jonathan and Susie of judging all the while and he’s going to use Romans 13 on them. authority all the while he’s breaking God, Jesus’s command about authority. And then he’s breaking what Paul says about judging someone’s conscience. So he’s just, he’s deep in the weeds here right off the get go.

Julie: Yeah. And here’s someone with a sensitive conscience to something, and he’s saying you have to violate your conscience if you keep this job. Demanding it. Demanding it. Absolutely. All right. Let’s move on to clip number two and what it has to say.

Jimmy Evans: If you have a personal conviction and you’re saying we can’t recognize it, I respect that.

I [00:20:00] completely respect that. For you guys individually, wherever you are, but as an employee here. You’re making a judgment on the relationship that she has with Doug that says it’s not scriptural. Now, you believe that. You don’t believe it’s scriptural. Okay. It’s not scriptural, which means it’s adulterous, which means she has an invalid marriage.

And so you’re unwilling to recognize it in your vice president network. Okay. So I’m saying, Individually, I respect your boundaries. If that’s a boundary, I get that. As an employee, that’s not the, you can’t do it.

Julie: Okay. As an employee, you can’t do that. So there’s A distinction here, he’s saying.

Lance Ford: Yeah and so what Jimmy Evans is doing here, he’s introducing the idea of dualism. And he’s saying, individually, your personal life, yeah, you can believe that, you’re fine. But when you come in here, you’re a different person now. Now you’re an employee. Okay, so this is called dualism.

[00:21:00] Now, once again Daystar is a church. It claims to be a church. So so hey You don’t get it both ways. You can’t operate like a business and call yourself a church You can’t operate with a church Jesus said the Gentiles operate and yet get to tell your donors we’re a church and get to feign with all your language that you’re following Jesus is that a church and by the way tell the IRS no we’re a church now you don’t get to do that and that’s what they’re trying to do trying to dip out of both out of both barrels here and that’s dualism

Julie: what would you say though if it were a business would that still be a valid argument to say When you come into your workplace, this is a secular place and you just have to follow what the boss says

Lance Ford: I think that when it comes to opinions with something that someone has in their heart opinion I think that [00:22:00] you probably end up with a lawsuit on your hand pretty quick, you know So I don’t think it would even work in the business world julie Would it seems to me like it wouldn’t?

Julie: If you have a religious conviction in the business world and your employer, we’re allowed freedom of religion here in this country. Last I checked. And so now I can’t imagine that. That would be allowed even if that were the case. So it’s, yeah, it’s a very problematic teaching. And when you say that, I think of Martin Luther, who said there is no distinction between the sacred and the secular.

That everything we do is work unto the Lord. So whether it’s in a secular job, whether you’re a janitor, whether you’re a lawyer. A pastor. It should be the same.

Lance Ford: There is no clergy laity divide. There is no secular sacred divide. This is why the Shema is so important. Jesus said Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one God, and you shall love him with your heart, soul, strength, and mind, right?

Because he is bringing, God brings all the world [00:23:00] together. This is why there is no dualism there.

Julie: Yeah, and the compartmentalization that we see, in the most hideous sense, I think of in Nazi Germany, where you had your soldiers who would go to church on Sunday and would love their children and treat their wives, decently, and then go to a concentration camp and exterminate human beings that are precious to God.

How could they do that? Again, it’s this idea, really. One person, one place, and another person, another. Two separate

Lance Ford: worlds,

Julie: yeah, very problematic. All right, the next clip And actually, this is a clip that this is going to be a John Bevere teaching from what I understand. You’re the expert on it, but I understand this is like a perfect a perfect example of what John Bevere was teaching, correct?

Lance Ford: Yeah, it really is. It’s it. If John Bevere was doing his teaching called undercover, which he’s had a book for decades on it, and he’s renewed even his teaching online on it. [00:24:00] But if he was wanting to have somebody role play how to exercise the powers that he advocates in undercover, then this quote we’re watching, it would be perfect for it because in undercover, Which, once again, this teaching has gone, it’s prolific, particularly in charismatic churches.

It’s required reading for staff members, for tons of churches. I’ve heard staff members like, oh yeah, we had to read that when we went on staff at that church. And one of the things that that Bavare has foundationally, he makes three particular claims. First of all, that those who don’t follow this doctrine is A, that they’re going to miss out on God’s blessing and promises, that B, that they’re going to be in danger of death or destruction.

Yeah. And he tells lots of stories of, of this, as he does the teaching. And then see, they’re going to miss out on God’s peace in their lives. And as he teaches this, he constantly underscores this. [00:25:00] And here’s one of the things that people need to understand. And, um, they’ll see it in a few minutes, but who he worked for, and who was his mentor.

We’ll get to that in a minute. This makes me think it makes me think of 1 Timothy 5, 19 where Paul says, don’t entertain the accusation against an elder unless it’s brought by two or three witnesses. But those elders who are sinning, you are to reprove before everyone. So that the others may take warning.

So keep that in mind as we watch this clip.

Joni Lamb: You’re not saying it, it was a viewer comment. Can I read what the pastor said? This is a pastor of 35 years. Joni, I’ve been giving giving thought and prayer to the issue with your kids. Who’s

Jonathan Lamb: this pastor?

Joni Lamb: Here are some thoughts. First, we learn in the Old Testament that rebellion is the sin of witchcraft.

The reason rebellion is like witchcraft is because when we rebel against authority that is set over us, we are stepping out from under the protective covering and inviting demonic spirits to attack us with no cover. Witchcraft is inviting [00:26:00] demonic spirits to influence our lives. If we feel the authority over us is an error, we have the right to appeal to the authority in humility.

If the authority decides to continue with the choice they have made, then we have two options. We remove ourselves from that authority, or we submit to that authority. There is not a third option of staying under the authority and attempting to force them to change or stay with our opinion. That is rebellion on steroids and will open destruction in our lives.

Correction for those in authority is God’s job, not ours. If we try to correct them, we are being God. Correction for those being in authority, again, is God’s job, not ours. If I have seen people become self appointed correctors, which is what we have here, of those in authority, and watch their own lives fall apart because their rebellion destroyed them, this is 35 years of being a pastor.

When we submit to authority, even if we don’t fully agree with them, we protect ourselves and allow God to bless us. [00:27:00] I’ve personally been And in some positions where I did not understand why God had me in that role at that time, because I saw things that I could not support, I prayed and knew I was where I was supposed to be.

So I kept my mouth shut and refused to speak anything negative about the person in authority in every situation. My submission and humble attitude allowed God to bless me in ways I could have never imagined.

Lance Ford: Okay. I can’t help but laugh. because it is theological gymnastics at its worst.

Julie: Okay. You’re saying that, but I promise you right now, there are people listening who went, Oh yeah, this is what I was taught.

In fact, I remember being at a church and I had issue with the senior pastor. I was on staff at the time and this is exactly what I was told. I didn’t even know who John Bevere was, so I didn’t know it was coming from John Bevere, but I was told basically that. I’m the one in authority. You submit to [00:28:00] authority.

And if you, if it’s that big of an issue for you, then leave. And we eventually did leave actually. But yeah we got this same thing. As a early 30 something, I had no clue.

Lance Ford: Most people don’t have any clue, but it come, and it even goes, a lot of it goes back to Bill Gothard too.

Bill Gothard taught the umbrellas, right? The concentric umbrellas and it was covering. So this teaching, but what Bevere did is Bevere’s done a great job of packaging it. And freshen it up. But what this creates is it creates a form of leadership immunity. So you know, like diplomatic immunity, you can’t prosecute, visiting diplomats.

And so that’s what these folks use with this type of of teaching that once again is just a word salad mixing thoughts, revelations. And mixed scriptures and, but it’s been used, especially in the charismatic circles for a [00:29:00] long time. This was used, has been used for decades in TBN, the other big Christian network.

So there was always warnings to keep your mouth shut not speak against God’s, this is where you get that. Don’t speak against God’s anointed, do his prophets no harm, quite forgetting that the word anointed one is the word for Messiah, which is Jesus. And but once again, it’s just, it’s a lot of it’s word salad, and making things up.

So they create leadership immunity and a big part of it is create this wall of protection. Keep your mouth shut. And you heard those very words. By Joni, she read this from this pastor.

Julie: And I wondered at the time, because Jonathan asked, who is the pastor? She never answered. I wondered if, did she get this from a book, did she just pull this out?

I don’t know.

Lance Ford: Yeah. And she showed no respect to Jonathan. And and you hear Jonathan throughout this whole set his tone and respect To Jimmy [00:30:00] Evans too is so measured. It’s sweet. It’s very kind, very different than what he’s getting back from them. In in, in his measured tones, but as he’s, getting quite beat up with a lot of this stuff, but yeah, I wonder, I don’t know if she would have got it from a book.

I almost wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t actually John that she talked to.

Julie: Yeah, and what is the scripture? Because in that whole thing, I’m not hearing any scripture. I’m just hearing this is the way it is. Where’s the scripture? What is it based on?

Lance Ford: The the, where she’s, what they’re pulling from is rebellion is a sin of witchcraft.

It has to do with Sam when Samuel would be Saul for Saul’s disobedience. And that’s where they get that. And so you pull this out and then you create this gigantic doctrine on it. In fact, we’ll hear We’ll hear more of that from Jimmy Evans here in a few minutes.

Julie: Yeah, but first we want to play [00:31:00] the, this is the mentor of.

John Bevere.

Lance Ford: Yeah, and this is so this is John Bevere. This is the large church when he was a young man. He was a youth pastor and he had issues there. He tells a lot of stories. He never names this individual, but. Everybody knows who it was. And so here’s we give you John Bravaire’s mentor in, in, in leadership

Benny Hinn: person who at one time was used of God or is used today.

Don’t touch him. You will pay for it. And may I even add your children will pay for it and hear this no matter how sinful the man, no matter how evil in your eyes. Don’t touch. You are playing with fire. Let me say something else to you, and I really don’t care if you like this or not. You have attacked me, your children will pay for it.[00:32:00]

If you don’t like it, it honestly don’t matter with me. I’m gonna warn every Christian magazine, every man. Every, every individual who stands behind a pulpit and attacking people by name, you are in danger and you better repent.

Julie: Okay. If you’re listening to this and not watching, or even if you’re watching, you may not recognize who that person is.

I’m guessing most people do, but that’s the voice of Benny Hinn. And wow. This guy is untouchable.

Lance Ford: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even if. They’ve been found in evil sin, he says, you don’t, you don’t, and you don’t call them out by name. Now, this contradicts multiple examples where Paul called people out by name.

By name. He calls Diotrephes out. He calls many people. He calls Peter out.

Julie: That’s what I was thinking. Another apostle.

Lance Ford: And this is where in first Timothy, he says, no, you do if you have credible witnesses. No, you do call them [00:33:00] out. In fact, you call them out in front of the church.

So that everybody else they’ll be made examples. So this stuff that comes from particular charismatic camps saying, and like even attacks against you, Julie and the work at Roy’s report of, Oh this is just gotcha journalism or it’s accusations. No, you do your homework. You verify. And but then that’s not good enough for them.

They would say, you still let, and you’re going to hear this language later on. They’ll say, no, God will do it. God will take care of that. God will deal with that person. How does God deal with people? And quite often. He uses others just, like he used Samuel going to David and saying, you’re the man, you’re the one, what you did with Bathsheba, you did it, that was God’s treatment.

Julie: You meant Nathan.

Lance Ford: Or Nathan, yes, exactly. Thanks, we want to stay [00:34:00] theologically correct. I was thinking about Samuel. Yes, absolutely.

Julie: And I think that’s why we get called. I’ve been called Jezebel. I was talking to Nathan Apfel on a podcast recently. He’s called the Antichrist for what he’s doing.

These, we are calling out evil in the church, which again, First Timothy 520 says that we should be calling out sin so that others may stand in fear. We should, have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Somehow these things are overlooked and these people are given almost.

As you said, the anointed one, we’re talking about messianic kind of authority in the church, which is idolatrous.

Lance Ford: Yeah, it is. And like you mentioned there, Julie, that’s the whole key is because this type of a doctrine, it keeps their deeds in darkness. And so what Jesus said, men love darkness because their deeds are dark.

And so this, and that’s why you have NDAs. All this stuff is always packaged. And it’s always [00:35:00] coming out of the same camps. So they want to keep things dark.

Julie: Absolutely. The next thing we’re going to talk about is submission related, but a little bit different twist here. This is Jimmy Evans.

Jimmy Evans: The submission means she’s the voice of God to you. Now, I pastored for 30 years, Amarillo, and I had a wonderful relationship with all the elders, and I said, I’m sorry, can you clarify? She said, she’s the voice of

Jonathan Lamb: God to me. She’s the voice of God to you. So God’s voice, I have to hear, I can hear from God. I have hear from her outside of Daystar.

Julie: Good on Jonathan there. Just in the moment to have the presence of mind, to be like, wait, what? Because he was steeped in this. Absolutely steeped in this, but this is you actually counted. How many times is she’s the voice of God or something very similar.

Lance Ford: Yeah, so Jimmy Evans uses this frame.

She’s this phrase. She’s the voice of God 11 times in this meeting 11 times. She’s the voice of God [00:36:00] to you. And yes, good on Jonathan. And you could tell he was stunned. He was like, because Jimmy Evans said it quick and was just going to keep going. Luncheon, and Jonathan’s surely you didn’t say what you just said.

You could hear it, and his boy’s what? And then Jimmy Evans says and so then he says, you’re saying I can’t hear from God? And once again, Jimmy Evans goes to dualism. Outside of Daystar, you can hear from God, but here, she’s the voice of God. Now, once again, they call their self a church. Nowhere whatsoever, anywhere in the New Testament do you find the church structured where one individual is the voice of God.

Nothing, I don’t really even need to waste our air time here to make that

Julie: argument. Although this, I would say this is the Moses model. which is very common in Calvary churches. This idea and ARC churches and Jimmy [00:37:00] Evans, by the way, very good buddies with Chris Hodges, who is, one of the lead team of the association related churches ARC folks.

If you haven’t heard of ARC before, you may even be in an ARC church and you’ve never heard of it before, but it’s one of the largest church planning organizations in the country. And I would say it is built on a completely. completely faulty theology. And that is a Moses model where, again, it’s not the model that we see in Acts 2, where the Holy Spirit comes and we see a dispersion of the gifts to everyone, young and old, men and women.

Everyone, the Holy Spirit falls on.

Lance Ford: Moses is not a type of the pastor. Moses is a type of Jesus. Thank you. Exactly. So the arrogance to take a bond. Even that title as, the model for what you pattern yourself after in your leadership, you’re not Jesus.

You’re not Moses.

Julie: No. And again, in the Moses model, [00:38:00] elders aren’t really elders. So it’s very similar that we’ll hear. In fact, Let me play the next clip, , and we’ll talk about that.

Jimmy Evans: What she says is, God in Daystar this is the voice of God in Daystar now, but what accountability

Jonathan Lamb: does

Jimmy Evans: she

Jonathan Lamb: have if she’s

Jimmy Evans: off, go ahead.

She has a husband. She has a board. I own the board. The board, yeah. But you’re not individually, you’re not her accountability individually, you’re her employee. And I’m saying

Jonathan Lamb: no,

Jimmy Evans: I don’t wait a minute, Jonathan. I have account. She’s the voice of God in Daystar.

Jonathan Lamb: No there. There’s no other accountability in Daystar.

13

Jimmy Evans: tells us to submit to authority. All authority ’cause it’s established. By God. And it’s the minister. No, but I’m saying civil authority. Who is her accountability at Daystar? But that’s not your concern. Your concern is to do what she says. And if you can’t be here. No, it is my concern. No, Jonathan, you keep arguing with everything.

You got to stop. I’m not arguing. You’re arguing with everything. You’ve got to stop and you’ve got to accept the fact that’s the boss. You’ve got to do what she says.

Julie: The shaming that goes on of [00:39:00] someone who is doing something righteous in this, and I’m sure there’s people even right now, it’s like even triggering to listen to that because we’ve been in situations where we’re shamed for doing the right thing.

Like good and evil is switched, is absolutely switched in here. But the thing that I was going to say in the Moses model, elders or a board, their job is not to hold the pastor accountable because the pastor hears directly from God. You elders, you’re just, your job is to support the pastor as he hears directly from God and then disperses God’s voice to you.

Good Lord, this is horrible theology.

Lance Ford: And this is the reason and for our listeners this is the reason people say, why does this keep happening? It’s the system. It’s systemic. It’s built for this to happen. It’s going to continue to happen. Every system is perfectly designed to get the results it gets.

And until we change this. nothing’s gonna change. And the problem is [00:40:00] these pastors are in love with the system. And if you are in love with your system, you lose the capacity to change it. And that’s a big problem here. Now in that, what we just listened to is you hear and I think it was really good.

What you said there, Julie, is that I am sure for that there are listeners that just triggers because they’ve been in these meetings and you hear. Jimmy Evans escalate. He gets angry. His voice rises because he’s not getting his way. And once again, Jimmy goes to doublespeak because Jonathan asked what accountability does she has?

And then Jimmy says she has a husband. Okay, Jimmy, time out. You said using your dualism, that’s in her personal life. We’re talking Daystar, and so then, Jimmy’s okay, you got me on that one. She [00:41:00] has a board, Jonathan. I’m

Julie: on the board. It’s by the way, there were only three people on the board, only three people.

So Joni, her son, Jonathan, and then one lawyer who longtime, friend of Joni’s super, super loyal to Joni this Tom Callender. That’s her born

Lance Ford: who was part of the episode that you posted a week or so ago, where they’re forcing him to sign, trying to force him to sign a DNA and Tom Kelly just, yeah.

So you know, so there’s three of them. And then, so here, Jonathan says, Hey, I’m on the board. And. And Jimmy Evans is no, that doesn’t count. You’re not her accountability. So immediately he diffuses in and he uncovers. This is all about covering. He uncovers the actual ploy right here, the plot of the way that these sham boards operate.

And folks, here’s what you got [00:42:00] to understand. This is not just a day star. This is not just at these big ministries. This is the norm in thousands upon tens of thousands of churches in America. And once again, this is why Julie has report so much because this is the operating system. For so many churches.

And so the boards are just yes, man. We saw all that with Mars Hill. He had 32 elders. Mark Driscoll did and there wasn’t one of them early on that was willing to stand up to him. So this, that’s how this stuff works.

Julie: Yeah. And it’s interesting too, because here he is saying there’s your personal life, right?

So in your personal life, you can hear from God, not here. You’re an employee, but then he’s on the board. So now it’s almost not even a dualism. It’s like a trike. It’s some sort of three part system where it’s like you’re bored. No, you’re an employee here. No, you’re, you’re

Lance Ford: an employee.

What, so what accountability would there be there? Zero. There would be no accountability. Zero.

Julie: And this is the problem with, again, having employees [00:43:00] on your board. I could go to all sorts of stuff with governance, but this is abysmal governance. For one, you should have at least five to seven people on your board.

That’s, according to the e. C. F. A. The Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, which is toothless in so many ways because it has no enforcement, hardly, but some of the standards are good and that one is a good standard saying it needs to be a certain size. This is a billion dollars.

It’s worth a billion dollars. This church is worth a billion dollars and. It’s run by people, and this is why you should have independent boards. There should not be employees on boards. There should not be, wearing these different hats. Your boss should not be the person you’re holding accountable, but boards absolutely should be holding people accountable to the mission of their organization.

Lance Ford: And here’s the thing about it, and we don’t have time to go into this, but the fact of the matter is, and you see the language from Paul constantly, once again, if they start as a church, we see the language throughout from Paul of mutual [00:44:00] submission. He says it in Ephesians be accountable to one another.

The, this form of accountability is it’s a fixed game because it’s descending accountability is all it is. You are you hold people below you accountable, and you’re only accountable to the person directly above you. You’re not accountable to your peers, which that is peer accountability, is what we see in the New Testament.

But once you get to the top, you’re not, whoever’s at the top is really not accountable to anybody, especially when they have a board like this.

Julie: Alright, moving right along this next one’s a doozy, so here we go. Tell him

Joni Lamb: what you told me about the Lord showed you about stubbornness and what it leads to.

Jimmy Evans: When the Bible says, this was related to Saul, and Saul says that rebellion is the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. And so it [00:45:00] equates stubbornness with being an idol worshiper. And the reason it does is because stubbornness is the worship of your own opinion. And that’s what y’all are doing.

You’re being stubborn. How you’re making an idol out of your own opinion related to Doug.

Julie: He’s up the ante here now, making an idol out of your own opinion. And you were referencing this before about stubbornness and this particular passage of scripture. What do you have to say about this one?

Lance Ford: This is a common play again. And notice what Tell them what God showed you.

Julie: It’s a voice of God. You can’t argue with that.

Lance Ford: Yeah, and it wasn’t, Hey Jimmy, tell them the scripture the Lord led you to. No, it’s what God showed you. So God showed him this. And what’s amazing is they are lifting this up.

What God showed him up to the level of scripture. [00:46:00] And yet Jimmy is saying, idolatry is the worship of your own opinion. Yet he just gave an opinion. That’s the irony here. So much irony. So the hypo, the hypocrisy. That he constantly one rule for you.

Julie: Another rule for me, right? Exactly. And just to say, I’m not anti charismatic.

In fact, I was in a vineyard church for a long time. I actually lean charismatic in our vineyard church number of rules. One of them was, you never receive a word from the Lord that contradicts scripture if it does. That’s when you throw out, right? And there was also humility and I love this.

It was like, you know what? Encourage people with words you have from the Lord. If you have a rebuke, you better run that by a few other people because if you’re wrong, you can hurt people, you can harm them and you better be humble enough to say, I may be hearing that wrong [00:47:00] and you run it by a few people with some wisdom and some maturity who often will say, and especially if you have a vested interest in that rebuke.

Maybe I ought to go back and maybe set this one out.

Lance Ford: Yeah, a hundred percent and have the humility to do that. And for the record I have charismatic background too met my wife at the charismatic Bible college planted the venue church. So that’s all my heritage too. So you and I both, we’re not speaking from the outside in we we’ve got experience.

I still consider, I have so many charismatic friends and pastor friends that I deeply love. But this is, once again, we have to judge ourselves. And that’s part of this work. Yeah, absolutely.

Julie: All right, moving right along.

Jimmy Evans: Now, again, if you say we can’t, this is a personal conviction.

I totally understand that. I totally respect that because no one can force you to do something against your own personal convictions [00:48:00] unless you’re taking a paycheck.

Lance Ford: Dualism again. Yeah. No one can force you to say something against your personal conviction unless you’re. taking a paycheck. In other words, if you are taking a paycheck, someone can force you to say something against your personal conviction.

Julie: And think of that. Think of Shadrach, Imagine if they had this theology, they’d be like I’m under the king and he’s paying me. So I guess we’re good.

Lance Ford: Yeah. and it’s, and part of this is this getting into the problem of treating people and even the term employee he uses many times.

And in fact, Jimmy Evans uses the calls Joni the boss 24 times. Oh wow. In this whole deal. So what folks, once again, this goes back to what we’ve normalized in the church. Nowhere do you find the concept of boss employee. In [00:49:00] fact, if you look up the word employee in a dictionary, Webster’s Dictionary, for instance, and you look up the word hireling in a Greek dictionary, they have the exact same definition.

And so that’s what Jimmy Evans just called for. Hey, if I give you a paycheck, you do what I tell you to do. And we’re going to hear more of that here in a few minutes.

Julie: And for people who may not be familiar with how Scripture talks about the hireling, explain that.

Lance Ford: It’s not good. So when It’s not a good thing.

Understatement. So yeah, when Jesus talks about the wolves and the fact that When the shepherd that should be watching over the sheep, when the wolf comes, when trouble comes, he bails. He leaves those poor sheep out to fend for themselves against this wolf. And Jesus says because he’s a hireling, he’s there for the money.

He’s there [00:50:00] for the accolades. He’s there for the power. He’s not there because he loves the sheep. He’s there for the paycheck. And now here we have Jimmy saying, You have to sell your opinion, you have to sell your conscience, you have to sell your conviction your Romans 14 conviction for a paycheck, and if I give you a paycheck, you better do it.

And this, folks, is what thousands of staff members and churches are doing. are under every week constantly. This is the life that they live. So it’s not just church members that experienced this abuse. It’s staff members and the ones that have bought into it. Their only hope is that someday they work their way up the ladder.

And they get to be the one dealing it out rather than having to take it. Now, I know that’s not hard, but that’s the truth of the matter.

Julie: I can’t tell you how many stories I haven’t reported. As a reporter, this is what’s hard. You hear all sorts of things. Like I have people come to me all the time.

They’re like, can I talk to you anonymously? And [00:51:00] now I actually, I usually just say if you’re going to talk to me anonymously, I can’t really use it. So I don’t know if that makes you feel better, but. But there’s nothing I can do with it. So why don’t you pray about that? And when you’re ready to go on the record, then let’s have a discussion.

But so many people, their jobs, and this may sound harsh too, but I really get frustrated with, I can’t speak because I have a job here, and quite frankly, if we’re not willing to, when we have a wolf, which is exactly what’s going on here, when we have a wolf. who is preying on the sheep instead of protecting the sheep.

And we’re the hireling because we’re getting paid. We’re not going to speak up about it because we’re going to lose. I don’t know how many people came to me when I was at Moody, which I got fired from my job for speaking out for blowing the whistle. But so many of them said, I need this job.

Do we trust that God. will meet our needs if we follow [00:52:00] our conscience. Jonathan and Susie, God bless them. They’ve lost a job because of this. They’ve lost a very lucrative jobs. Both of them

Lance Ford: were in a way his

Julie: inheritance. Yes, and they did it for something that they believed was more precious to them than money.

Wonderful example. Honestly, I’m so proud of these.

Lance Ford: They really

Jimmy Evans: are. These

Julie: two. All right.

Jimmy Evans: See, as a leader, you have to be a follower. Jesus said, do nothing unless I see my father. Jesus was a great leader because he was a great follower. You’re a terrible follower right now. And you’ve always been great. You and your mom have always, see, here’s the point.

You’ve always done what your mom said because you agreed with it. Now you don’t agree. A follower does, when Jesus said, Not my will but yours be done, in the Garden of Gethsemane, what he was saying is, every bone in my body doesn’t want to do this, but I’ll do what you want, not what I want. That’s the only reason we have a savior, [00:53:00] is he did that.

Right now, you’re saying, not your will, my will be done you’re insisting that you get what you want related to Doug, and that’s not going to happen.

Julie: That’s twisting. That’s twisting.

Lance Ford: Now, it’s completely twisting, because what he’s doing, he’s equating following a leader at the same level as, and demanding it, in fact, at the same level of Jesus following God.

If you. Are a good follower of a leader. You’re going to follow to the measure that Jesus followed God, which means you’re making the leader. God. Yeah.

Julie: A hundred percent.

Lance Ford: Let’s just go ahead and trace this thing out.

Julie: And what’s so ironic again, there’s so much irony in all of this is that Jimmy Evans is actually promoting idolatry.

It was using biblical language to promote idolatry. What I’m hearing from Jonathan and Susie is we’re hearing from God And we’re going to follow God, not man. [00:54:00] And what Jimmy’s saying is, no, you follow man. And that’s following God. And once again, the hill

Lance Ford: that the Joni is the day star may be dying on.

Okay that hill is all about her wanting to force him and Susie to read this affirming card of a viewer about her new husband and Jonathan in the in, and you posted this. People can listen to the whole thing. But Jonathan said, Hey, I would gladly recuse myself. And just let me step away, let someone else read the card and it’s nope, you’re going to do it.

So it’s it’s a personal issue that she’s demanding out of him to go against his conscience. And then it’s escalated in all this stuff and she’s not willing to back off on it. And [00:55:00] we’ll see how it all plays out for, but the thing is, it is exposed how diabolical this false doctrine is.

All right,

Julie: here’s the next one.

Joni Lamb: How dare they question me now? And Marcus would say the same thing. He used to say to me, Oh my gosh, like he trusted me to the highest level. Who is my accountability? God is my accountability. He will spank me good if I do something wrong.

Lance Ford: Okay, there we go. God’s my accountability.

And see, this goes right back to that whole doctrine. The job of air teaches is you don’t speak. You don’t say anything. Let God do it. And now she just finally just rips all the covers off the system and says, God is my account. I’m accountable to God. I hear from God directly. Okay. And so you don’t, she doesn’t hear through the board.

She hears from God directly because why, Joni is the voice of God at Daystar. And folks, once again, this [00:56:00] is not just a Daystar issue. This is in so many of your churches. This is the way they operate. This is what that senior leader thinks about him or herself. And this is what the rest of the staff and the boards are taught.

To believe about that senior leader. So that’s that would be a scary place to be. That would be a scary fellowship to be a part of if you’ve got a leader that has that type of mindset and you’ve got the rest of the team members that are either following under it. And under compunction or they’re following because they actually believe it.

That’s it. That’s very scary stuff

Julie: Yeah, and it’s really the foundation for spiritual abuse and people are forgetting again priesthood of all believers This is New Testament folks a lot of it’s like they’re operating on an Old Testament system this is New Testament and even on the Old Testament system We had prophets who would come and confront the king it’s just breathtaking to me.

I didn’t grow up with this. And so for me, it’s just [00:57:00] shocking, absolutely shocking that people get away with this kind of stuff.

Jimmy Evans: Your job is to please her. When she has a smile on her face, you did your job. Your job is not to come and talk about God and go home. Your job is to come and please the boss.

Lance Ford: Now once again, this

Julie: to the church, it’s a church, right at ease, but I’m hearing this as a woman and I’m wondering how many other women out there, like I heard this when I was on staff at a church and it was as a woman, you have to just trust and submit to all the leadership going on and you don’t say anything because you’re a woman and you don’t have a voice, but you just trust God.

And I heard women teaching this in Bible studies that you don’t say anything to your husband. You don’t say a thing when he’s out there watching porn or he’s doing whatever he’s doing. You don’t say that’s God’s job. Even Ruth Graham even said that my job is to love Billy. It’s God’s job to reprove him.

We hear this [00:58:00] stuff and it sounds so biblical. And I’ve heard So much respect for Ruth Graham. I don’t mean to dis her, but at the same time, it’s like, guys, think about the theology here, again, priesthood of all believers. We are supposed to, we’re supposed to speak in when there’s sin.

Lance Ford: Exactly.

And that, that issue of the priesthood of all believers, it’s so important when we read the scriptures, when we approach the epistles, remembering that these epistles were written as a letter to gather the church down. They’re written plurally. When Paul says, you have the mind of Christ, you’re plural.

He’s saying, you collectively have the wisdom of the head. You’re the body, the head of Jesus disseminates the wisdom down into the body. So it’s like none. It’s like people say yeah, you shouldn’t be a lone ranger. Even the lone ranger had TTOs, . We always forget Tonto. So there is a collective wisdom that comes [00:59:00] about, it’s really despicable there, what you’re hearing. But once again, it’s just uncovering it.

Julie: And the sad thing too, when you said die on this hill and Daystar May. This is going to be absolutely devastating for them. I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t know how they get beyond this, how they survive this.

We’ll see. We’ll see what happens. But this is your protection. Like honestly, if we cut off the voices in our life, like I want people, you’re on my board. I want my board. To confront me for things or if they think that I’m off on things there’s things that I’ve wanted to do. And I’ve had board members say, no, you’re not going to do that.

There’s things I’ve wanted to post and I’ve had board members say, no, you’re not going to do that. And that has been a protection for me to listen to the people in my life. And the minute that I get be above that and I stopped listening, It’s a danger for the leader.

Lance Ford: Yes, for the leader. [01:00:00] And that’s one of the things, I think it’s a great point she has made there, Julie, is, and we’re going to hear this in a few minutes where Joni brings up this warning again.

So you’re putting yourself in danger by rebelling. There’s never any mention about the danger of a leader. Walking in unhinged authority, once again, the very thing Jesus forbade. There’s no mention whatsoever about that rebellion. No, you’re rebelling against Jesus from the outset. By demanding and exercising you’re the one that’s in rebellion So if we want to talk about rebellion sin and witchcraft, let’s start right there, but that’s not in their mind

Julie: All right.

Listen the next one i’m getting close to the end here. I’m loyal to god above all

Joni Lamb: God wouldn’t be pleased with this. No God’s not pleased and you’ve opened up yourself both of you to demonic activity in your family and with your kids By your rebellion against me, I don’t see I don’t see

Jonathan Lamb: It’s not rebellion.

It is rebellion. And you’re submitted

Joni Lamb: in every way. [01:01:00] It will be recognized. You’re, you bring a curse upon you and your kids.

Jimmy Evans: You guys keep trying to teach us.

Lance Ford: The arrogance.

Joni Lamb: The

Lance Ford: arrogance. I know. It’s been a long while. We should say the same thing. The arrogance from Jimmy Evans here, once again, Jonathan has been so respectful.

He is treated as Paul told Timothy treat an elder as a father, but then he tells. The older ones, he says, and you treat the young men, the younger ones as brothers, but he has, there’s no mutual respect here from Jimmy whatsoever. Laughs. Oh, you’re trying to teach me now what he what Jimmy’s doing there.

He’s totally despising. Jonathan’s youth and Jonathan’s not a kid. He’s a grown man that’s married and has children, so he’s he’s, he shouldn’t be scoffed at like this. Um, it’s really despicable. But getting back to the point here, Joni’s warning once again you’re in danger.

You’re in [01:02:00] danger of a curse. This is not scriptural. Nowhere do you find anything in the New Testament that, that speaks of something like this. It’s totally coming out of their own left field.

Julie: It is. And it’s, again, this is classic spiritual abuse, just making someone fearful of God’s curse of his wrath.

I, and this has done to children so often who are terrified. I got a listener email just this week. And she was saying how, when she was a child being abused by A person in authority in the church. They kept saying, if you say anything about it, God will punish you. God will punish you.

And she’s saying, I’m an elderly woman now in my, I don’t know if she’s had seventies or eighties. I still hear that voice. God will punish you. God will punish you. For the most wicked things where the other person is doing. [01:03:00] Justifying with this kind of language. People, if you’re going to say someone’s going to be cursed, they better be doing something really wicked, not speaking up for their own convictions from God.

Lance Ford: And once again, find anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus or the Epistle writers told us we could warn somebody. of a curse for this type of thing. Nowhere. Nowhere.

Jonathan Lamb: I love you, and I’m led by the Lord. And you’re led by her. No, but I’m, no I’m led by the Lord first.

Jimmy Evans: If your leading of the Lord is telling you can’t submit to everything she says, then you have a personal conflict.

Julie: Okay, can I just say Please say. Jimmy Evans needs to be disqualified from ministry for what he said in this meeting. All of it. This man needs to be reproved. He needs to step down from his church. His board needs to renounce this as heretical because that’s exactly what it is. And in this, the more I [01:04:00] listened to it, the more angry I get.

This is It is so twisted.

Lance Ford: It’s heretical, if not blasphemous, because I believe blasphemy is getting in here too. Very dangerous. Folks, please hear what he just said to say, no, you’re not led by the Lord. You’re led by her and you have to be willing to do everything she says. Yeah, no it’s heresy.

Julie: One more. If we can take one more. But this is a real doozy and I think it’s important that we hear it.

Joni Lamb: If you’re submitted, we can work through this.

Suzi Lamb: So then, so your submission is just whatever you put in, whatever card you put in my hand, whatever it says, I have to read it and that’s the job?

Yeah. Okay, the job I submitted to here at Daystar is ministry to serve God, not about Doug. So in that case I won’t have I will stand my convictions to be here for God and not about Doug.

Joni Lamb: Okay, you’re not called to be here for God. You’re not called to even say those things that you’re saying.

You’re called here to serve. Okay.

Julie: [01:05:00] Okay. And then someone else who’s disqualified. Joni Lynn resign now. Resign now. You just told somebody who said, I’m here for God. And you said you’re not here for God. Basically, you’re here for me.

Lance Ford: Exactly. She just uncovered herself. She had her seat out of the bunch of the heart the mouth speaks.

And so she just uncovered herself. What blatant it’s outlandish to say, so you’ve got this young lady that is a servant of the Lord. And here’s the problem. She’s not your servant, Joni. She’s the servant of the Lord and pastor the people that are on your staff. They’re not your servants They’re the servants of the Lord now They may be serving you just like a waiter or a waitress in a restaurant serves others But they don’t work for you.

They’re not there for your abuse. They work for the owner Jesus is the head of his church. And once again [01:06:00] Daystar you call yourself a church. You’re claiming that you’re a church. Yes You Julie, you’re right, Joni disqualified, Jimmy Evans 100 percent disqualified.

Julie: And I want to bring this back to something you said at the beginning.

You talked about the Bereans. The Bereans were hearing from the Apostle Paul. The Apo I don’t know who of us would put ourselves even close to the level of authority of the Apostle Paul. And Paul commended them. The exact opposite that what we see here of Jimmy and Joni. The apostle Paul commended them, said they were of noble character because they went back to search the scriptures to see if what he said was true.

And if we have a problem in the church right now, it’s that our people, this is the thing that bothers me so often when I go to churches and I hear these pastors preaching, and I realize, because I have studied the scriptures, I know that what they’re saying [01:07:00] is not what the scripture is saying.

And they might not be going into heresy like we just heard, but they’re getting awful close to it. But what I realize is everybody’s nodding around me because they love that guy up front and he’s charismatic. And that’s where I’m like, friend, you have to know the scriptures and you have to serve the scriptures.

And nobody is above accountability. Absolutely no one. We are all, we’re all flesh. We’re all feet of clay. Absolutely. Absolutely. Said. I appreciate you, Lance. I appreciate you for pulling these clips, for being willing to unpack this. And you have the theological knowledge to do that and to bring us back to what the scripture really says.

So brother I just appreciate you so much. I appreciate you being on the board and really keeping us. And if we ever stray I’m so glad that I have people there that I will never say that to. I will never say. [01:08:00] And if I do, you’ll call me on it.

Lance Ford: I don’t think I’ll need these notes. I don’t think I’m not too worried about that.

Julie. I appreciate. And that’s part of the reason I am on the board is because I believe in this work. I believe in this mutual calling and gifting. And I think it takes all of us and with our different giftings to be able to do what the Lord’s called us to do. And you and I talked about it many times.

We wish we would have to go find something else to do, but obviously that’s not the case right now. And we’re just going to keep working and we’re going to keep working on the, I love the tagline of the Roy’s report reporting the truth and restoring the church. And so it’s twofold. So you have to tell the truth and then we have to get in there and do everything we can to bring healing and repair.

And that’s what we’re that’s what we’re on about.

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things we do that I think is the Most restorative [01:09:00] thing that we do is probably the restore conference, and you’ll be speaking there on some of this sort of stuff on bad theology and being able to identify it and see how it’s used to.

Manipulate people, control people. So thanks again, Lance. Just really appreciate it and really appreciate this podcast with you.

Lance Ford: Same to you, Julie.

Julie: Thanks so much for listening to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And just a reminder that this month, if you give 75 or more to The Roy’s Report, we’ll send you our re imagined church bundle of two books.

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