In 2016, Christian author Carey Scott was the victim of plagiarism by a major celebrity—international speaker and evangelist Christine Caine. Caine reportedly copied entire portions of Scott’s book, forcing Scott to take legal action to settle the issue. Yet for Scott, the negative impact of this event lingers. Meanwhile, Caine, who never apologized, continues to enjoy the spotlight.
On this edition of The Roys Report, Carey Scott shares her painful story, involving not just having her work stolen, but also being persistently bullied online. Scott also reveals details of interactions with Caine and shares the behind-the-scenes circumstances that compelled Scott to settle.
Seeking justice for what Caine did was like David facing Goliath, Scott says. Few people, including Scott’s publisher, were willing to publicly confront a big celebrity like Caine. And rather than seeing Scott as the victim, many people defended Caine, and attacked Scott for making the plagiarism public.
Just last week, someone posted on social media that Scott should be happy that Caine stole her work. “The only bitterness would be because of the monetary loss,” the woman wrote. “And if that’s the case, then maybe you need to figure out what your priority is.”
In this podcast, Scott addresses comments like these and the broader issues her case raises. Is plagiarism a big deal? If so, why? And how is it that Christian celebrities get away with plagiarism—seemingly without any consequences?
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Plagiarism of 'Untangled'
Page 55 from Carey Scott’s book, ‘Untangled,’ was lifted almost verbatim in Christine Caine’s promotional video for her book, ‘Unashamed.’
More Plagiarism Examples
Carey Scott is an author, speaker, and certified Biblical Life Coach, honest about her walk with the Lord—stumbles, fumbles, and all. She challenges women to be real—not perfect—even when it’s messy. Through her writing and speaking, Carey hopes to encourage others to stop living a mediocre, risk-free life and instead step onto the battlefield and engage! You can find her at CareyScott.org.
JULIE ROYS, CAREY SCOTT
JULIE ROYS 00:00
In 2016, she was the victim of plagiarism. A very prominent Christian celebrity reportedly copied entire portions of her book. In 2018, my guest today settled with that celebrity. But there was little justice and to this day, my guest says she gets bullied online from fans of this celebrity. Meanwhile, this celebrity, who never apologized or owned what she did, continues to enjoy the spotlight. Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me on this episode is Carey Scott. Carey is a prolific author who’s working on her 30th book, but in 2016, she heard a trailer for an upcoming book by international speaker and Evangelist Christine Caine. And to Carey’s shock that trailer included portions of Carey’s book, Untangled, which was published the year before. As Carey will discuss, her discovery led to a process that she likens to David going up against Goliath. Given that Christine Caine was a sister in Christ, Carey said she fully expected that Caine would own her error and make things right. But Carey says that didn’t happen. This led to a lawsuit and settlement in 2018. But just last week, someone posted on social media that Carey should be happy that Caine stole her work. The only bitterness would be because of the monetary loss the woman wrote. And if that’s the case, then maybe you need to figure out what your priority is. In a minute you’ll hear how Carey responded to that woman, and we’ll discuss the broader issues Carey’s story raises. Is plagiarism a big deal? If so, why? And how is it that Christian celebrities get away with plagiarism seemingly without any consequences? But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. Judson University is a top ranked Christian University providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Plus, the school offers more than 60 majors great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Judson University is shaping lives that shape the world. For more information, just go to Judsonu.edu. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Curt Marquardt are men of character. To check them out, just go to buyacar123.com. Well again, joining me today is Carey Scott, a speaker and life coach and the author of dozens of books. These include Untangle, Uncommon and her latest book Unafraid. She’s also the victim of plagiarism, though, as I’m sure she’ll tell you she hates the word victim. But Carey, welcome, and I’m so glad you could join me.
CAREY SCOTT 02:53
Thank you, Julie. It’s good to be here.
JULIE ROYS 02:55
So, I remember when this plagiarism case came out, and this was in like 2016 I believe that we heard that Christine Caine had supposedly plagiarize. And I remember following this, and then it just suddenly went dark. And I really didn’t hear much about it. And then I do remember there being something about something settling, but I mean, it never really became big news, as I recall. But then last week, you posted something on Facebook, and this caught my attention. You wrote, my book, Untangled was plagiarized by another Christian author named Christine Caine, not once, but twice in 2016-2017. It was my first traditionally published book and contained a very personal story of sexual abuse that happened to me when I was a small child. In the past few days, I’ve had several comments come my way about this situation. I’ve ignored them for years. But today I feel prompted to speak out. Each person may have used different wording but here’s the gist. Why not be happy? your message still got out there. If your purpose is to spread Jesus around the world, then be happy. Because that’s what’s happening since her being, Christine Caine, her platform is bigger than yours. If you’re upset because of a monetary loss, maybe you need to get your priorities straight. How very insensitive. In our world today, right is wrong, and wrong is right, left is right and right as left. it’s sheer insanity, but biblical for the times that we’re in. You wrote a lot more and we can get into that. But let me just stop there. What made you at this point in time, post that comment and speak out because you’ve been pretty much quiet as I understand since that settlement with Christine in 2018?
CAREY SCOTT 04:47
Well, I don’t really know. I think I hit my limit to be honest with you. I just haven’t felt the freedom to speak out about it. The last thing I want to do is character assassination. I don’t want to look like I’m a woman scorned. You know, the perception of people that have been victimized, for lack of a better word. People are very critical of how they respond. So, I just chose to keep my mouth shut. I really felt like that’s what God was asking me to do was just to let him be the judge and jury and let him the vengeance be his. And so, I kept my mouth closed for a very, very long time. I saw comments come and go, some that were very, very hurtful and personal and attacking. But I just kept my mouth shut. And something shifted when I saw these come through. I just felt like my mouth had been shut, and I felt like I had to go ahead from the Lord to say something. And I did.
JULIE ROYS 05:52
You did? And again, I said, that got my attention. I think it got a lot of other people’s attention too. What’s the response been like, and what does that meant to you personally?
CAREY SCOTT 06:03
Oh, I hope I don’t cry here. Um, so when this first was released, it was just crickets. I you know, I had my friends that supported me, my family, some close ministry friends, some authors, speakers stood with me. But even the best pieces that were written by journalists, well intentioned journalists, they got buried. And so, when I put this out there, I can tell you honestly, I did not have any idea what response I was going to get. I knew that it had been, you know, swept under the rug, and hushed several years ago, and it really, I didn’t even really put it out there, because I was looking for validation, or people tried to make me feel good or valid. I just really felt like I needed to say it. So, I wasn’t sure. I was afraid of a mixed bag, and I was ready for it. And the response, however, I mean, it has just blown me away. I could have never imagined it this way. I think last time I checked, there were about 250 people, from childhood friends, to fellow ministry friends, to people I don’t even know, countless shares, I think almost 100 shares of people that just saw the injustice and wanted to support me and it has healed some very deep places in me where I felt like there was no justice to be had. And I’ve been overwhelmed and very grateful. But understanding at the same time, that’s not what I was looking for. I just, it just felt good to say it, Julie. It just felt good to finally just say it and be done with it. And that’s what I thought was going to happen. But it got some good attention.
JULIE ROYS 07:54
I think you wrote in your post how people don’t write books to get rich, very true. 80% of books don’t make money. And writers write because like you said, you have to, it’s almost cathartic. You know, you have to give birth to a book, right? I mean, that’s what I think you may have used. I’ve heard that from writers before. But I love some stuff that you say because you address plagiarism, which to me, it’s become like, you know, overeating in the Christian community. Like it’s no big deal. And you write, stealing is stealing, the end. Anyone who steals and continues on like nothing happened has questionable character. I agree. But I’ve noticed, to a lot of Christians, plagiarism is like no big deal. You know? Their pastor does it every Sunday. So why is this a big deal?
CAREY SCOTT 08:43
Well, I may not be able to answer it for everybody. But I can say for me, the topics that I write about are extremely personal. And so, I love that God uses me and my story in my books. It’s like it makes the pain that I’ve gone through worth something, and he redeems it through my story. So, when I’m writing, I’m writing about shame. And I’m writing about feelings of worthlessness and insecurities and fears and things that have gripped me so much of my life. I’m writing about things very personal. And one of the things I like to do in my ministry, and I talk about, is just live authentically and honestly. And so, in my books, I share stories about my life that I would have never thought years ago I would ever share, especially not in a public arena. So, to know that when I’m sharing these stories, these topics, these pieces of wisdom that I feel like God has given to me, I do birth them. You know, many times I’m writing the book and I have tears streaming down my face. I’m having to revisit the pain and revisit the feelings that just tangle you up. And so, for those words that were so hard to get out of my body in a way that anybody could understand them, for those to be taken and used is so beyond what I could even understand doing. And the bottom line is, you know, Christine didn’t need my words. She’s, you know, she has her own story. She has her own testimony. She has her own relationship with the Lord. And she didn’t need my words to make her testimony any stronger. And so that’s what was for me so difficult. I can’t say that that’s what everybody would feel if their work was plagiarize. But that’s where I come from.
JULIE ROYS 10:35
Well, I don’t write about those sorts of things, generally, although the book I wrote was very personal. You know, generally, I’m doing news type stories. But I know recently, I reported a story about John MacArthur, who was accused of plagiarism by Dennis Swanson, who was a former vice president at the Masters seminary, and here, in 1994, he had edited a chapter in a counseling book, and it said in the first print, edited by Dennis Swanson. In the reprint in 2005, it said, edited by John MacArthur and Wayne Mack. And he said, you know, I opened the book, and I was just shocked, just shocked, like what nobody even told me. And I’m told, this is interesting, Harper Collins Christian publishing, is the publisher. And they said they’re investigating. Every week, I keep sending emails. So, how’s that investigation going? What’s happening with that investigation? I kind of know what’s happening. John MacArthur is a huge cash cow. John MacArthur is a big name. I on the other hand, and not as big not as important. And I you know, I’m kind of guessing, although I hope I’m wrong. Harper Collins, if you’re listening, please, please do something and tell us what the results are. But every week, I keep saying, what’s the results of your investigation? And we’re still investigating. You know, I wonder if a year from now we’re going to still be investigating? I don’t know. I mean, we’ll see. I hope I’m wrong. But this is a situation where, and again, you know, it’s called ghost writing in a lot of cases. But this isn’t even ghost writing, because Dennis didn’t sign a contract, anything like that. But what is this, that it seems a very common practice, right? In Christian publishing, that people can pay for other people to write thing, and then they can claim that work is their own?
CAREY SCOTT 12:28
I don’t know how anybody would do that. I, I don’t know. it’s very difficult for me to know how anybody could stand up on a stage and speak, knowing you know, about a book, you know, on a book tour, let’s say, knowing that that book was not anything that they wrote. You know, when we’re giving a message, whether we say it or it’s implied, we feel like we’re speaking based on what God’s put on our heart. So same with writing, when I write something, I’m prompted to write it. I feel strongly to write it. God’s leading me down a path or we’ve been having hard conversations. And these are things that the Lord wants me to say. I don’t know how anybody could stand up there and promote a book or a concept or an idea or an issue when they weren’t even the ones that penned the book. I don’t understand that.
JULIE ROYS 13:21
So, you would still have not received an apology, or any show of repentance from Christine Caine. As you said, you don’t know how you would get up on stage and do these things, yet you’re seeing Christine Caine. You know, she’s on television. She’s at conferences, a major speaker. I think speaking at some conference coming up, did you say with Beth Moore? She is still publishing books. And you know, she’s kind of an authority. How does that feel to see someone who’s done this up there speaking about Jesus? about the gospel?
CAREY SCOTT 13:57
I don’t see it. I’ve had to unfollow everything that leads to her. And I, you know, I wish her well. I believe that she’s on a journey with God in her own way. I know, she will have to answer as I will, for all of the things that I could have done differently, the decisions that I made, and so I don’t wish her ill. I have let go of any anger or bitterness or unforgiveness that I’ve had towards her. And part of that process for me, Julie, was choosing not to follow her. I just have to shield my eyes, because I don’t want anything to, I don’t want anything to make my heart hard so that the work God has called me to do will be impossible. And I write about topics that are so fleshy and so driven by my heart, it’s important to me that I keep that as clean with pure motives as I possibly can and staring at what she’s doing, does nothing but make me revisit hurtful feelings over and over and over again.
JULIE ROYS 15:08
Hmm. Well, I should mention, I did reach out to Christine Caine. I haven’t heard back from her yet. But I would love to hear back from her. I would love to have a discussion about this. And I would love to see her publicly acknowledge what happened. So, if that happens, I will certainly report it. But so far it hasn’t. On your Facebook post, you divulge some details I hadn’t ever seen before. And again, I think I followed this somewhat tangentially at the time that it happened. But you said that, at the same time that you got this discovery about Christine Caine plagiarizing, and you had filed lawsuit, you had another even more horrific, much more personal discovery, and that was that your husband had a secret sexual life that he had kept from you. You know, how did that impact the decisions that you made? Because I know at this point that you found this out, you’re in the middle of a lawsuit with Christine. How did that impact the decisions that you made?
CAREY SCOTT 16:17
Yeah, that was those last these last few years have been brutal. So, I would say that when I, this discovery came to light, about my then husband’s secret life, I almost heard the Lord, not audibly, of course, but in my spirit. I heard him say to me, get off of that battlefield, because you’re needed on this other battlefield. And it was so clear to me that I knew that that was what I had to do. And so that is what really prompted me to change directions, if you will, and just move on, I guess, and stand next to my kids. We had no knowledge of this in our family. We were completely blindsided on every level. And so, the amount of hurt that I had to walk my teenagers through was almost insurmountable. And so, I knew that what I needed to do is be fully present in this situation, because honestly, that’s more important to me than somebody taking my words. I needed to make sure that my kids were able to, you know, stand and get through this, which they did. And they’re amazing. And it was messy. And it was long. But the three of us, we’re doing really well. We just saw God show up in the most unexpected ways. And I’m really at a place of peace in both situations, actually.
JULIE ROYS 17:51
Hmm. Well, hopefully we won’t disrupt that. But I know for me, I was so curious when I read this. And then when we talked, we had a phone call last week. And just really curious how this unfolded, because again, this is somebody who still has a huge platform. And I should say, I’ve been doing a lot of reporting on the Association of Related Churches, ARC, and Christine Caine is on the lead team of ARC. So again, this is one of the largest church planting organizations in all of North America. There’s a lot of people on that ARC lead team that make you shake your head. But given what’s happened with Christine, that kind of makes me shake my head too. So let me just back up to 2016. How did you discover that your book Untangled had somehow ended up in Christine Caine’s book Unashamed?
CAREY SCOTT 18:48
Well, this is a crazy story. So, I remember perfectly. I was sitting on my recumbent bike, and I was trying to get in a workout, and I was on my iPad, just checking mail and I saw an email come through for her. Up to this point or up to that point, I really liked her. I felt gosh, I felt a kinship with her because we had been through maybe some of the similar things. She was very straightforward. I liked that approach. She was not flowery. I’m not flowery. So, I connected with her on that level. I’ve never seen her before. I don’t even know if I had written. I mean, I read a book of hers, but I had just followed some of the stuff she’d been doing. So, I see an email come through promoting her next book titled Unashamed, and I thought fantastic, let me look at this video this promo video because I’m all about shame. I mean, if there is shame in a 50-mile radius, I’m going to get it and put it on my body. That’s just how I function. And so, I opened this video and I’m you know, sitting there sweating it out and watching this video and this just is it’s the weirdest thing. I really felt the Holy Spirit highlight a section of that video and say to me Go get your book Untangled. I can’t even explain that other than it was just the supernatural situation. And so, I stopped riding, and I went and got my book. And I’m thumbing through all the possible places that I could have written this big offending paragraph in this video, and I found it on page 55. And it was verbatim. And it was not a couple of words. It was several sentences. It was a thick paragraph. And I’m listening to the video, rewinding it and reading and rewinding and reading and I just, I freaked out. I couldn’t believe what I had seen. And I reached out to my then agent and that kind of started the process. But that’s how I discovered it. It was random; had I never watched that video, I would have never found the plagiarism.
JULIE ROYS 20:58
And it is stunning. In fact, we’ll post the audio for that or maybe the video too if we can get that of this particular offending passage and you put it side by side there and see what you wrote and yeah, it’s like lifted verbatim. So, what we’ll put that up on our website, JulieRoys.com. If you look under this podcast, particular podcast, we’ll have it posted right there. Emotions when you know, first discovered this?
CAREY SCOTT 21:28
I was unbelief. I went into action mode. This book had not yet released and.
JULIE ROYS 21:34
It was two weeks from release, right?
CAREY SCOTT 21:36
Yeah. Okay. So, I contacted my agent, my agent then. And she reached out to the publisher, to my publisher, which was Revell, and she reached out to Harper Collins Zondervan, which was Christine’s and they assured us that that was just a weird thing. Not sure how that happened. But they could guarantee there were no more incidents of plagiarism in the book. And so, my agent asked them to overnight us the books. And we spent the next several days, by hand, looking, reading something and looking in my book for it and reading something and looking in my book for it. It was grueling. And we found I have, there countless other examples of plagiarism. And we were blown away.
JULIE ROYS 22:26
So, your publisher was Revell, now Baker, Baker books. And then Christine’s, as you said, was Zondervan. And you’d mentioned to me something about there being like a plagiarism software that they could run? but there seemed to be some unwillingness to do that, would you explain that?
CAREY SCOTT 22:44
So, I don’t know the correct terms. Because it’s all technical. But there’s some sort of software that publishers have at their disposal that they can run through, I think professors might have it, that they can run through, and to see if it’s been plagiarized. They can pick it up from you know, whatever resources they have, but they can find plagiarism. We asked for both publishers to do this for us, and neither one of them were willing to do it. So that’s what prompted us then to go by hand, looking, you know, comparing pages and finding. It was, I don’t know if I slept for 48 hours, but we found countless other examples of complete direct plagiarism in her book.
JULIE ROYS 23:32
And you don’t know how this happened? I mean, obviously, it’s not an accident. Unless, I mean, sometimes people talk about evolution in you know, there’s incredible order that just happened by accident, but maybe it was one of those. But no, somebody intentionally did this. I don’t know. And I’m guessing you don’t know. Do you, how Christine puts together books, whether she has a team of writers that does this for her whether, you know, do you know anything about that?
CAREY SCOTT 24:00
No, my assumption would be and it’s an assumption that she has people that help her put the book together. She puts books out fairly often. And I know that. I mean, I certainly can’t do that. But I don’t know for sure. But I do know how she got my book. There’s a process when you’re publishing a book, where you send a pre copy of it to influencers, with the hope of being that they will take that book and promote it for you on Twitter or Facebook or wherever it might be. That they will help you get the word out about it with their bigger platforms. And when I looked back in my notes, she was Christine was an influencer that I sent a book to.
JULIE ROYS 24:44
Hmm, wow. So, you know, if people aren’t aware of this, this is just another peeling back to see the evangelical industrial complex at work. Okay, so you’ve got publishers who are making big bucks who are connected to the influencers. They’ve helped them. They want to, you know, publish other books with similar type big names. And the conferences are all part of getting the book sold as are the radio stations as are the whole thing. So, it doesn’t surprise me when you said, you know, Baker and Zondervan really didn’t have a lot of incentive to help little Carey Scott figure out that big Christine Caine had plagiarized from her. I mean, at that point, what do you do when you find all of these different you made a spreadsheet? You know, and you put these things together? What do you do at that point?
CAREY SCOTT 25:39
Well, we spent a long time trying to connect in a meaningful and productive conversation with Christine and her publishers. We reached out countless times. We asked if my publisher would engage, and they chose not to. We talked, had several conversations, past emails back and forth. Again, my agent at the time was handling most of that on my behalf. But we were constantly trying to fix this under the radar. We just wanted what was wrong to be made right. That was what we wanted. And it just kept getting met with no response, rude response, belittling responses, and.
JULIE ROYS 26:31
Who giving those?
CAREY SCOTT 26:33
I don’t remember a name. It was so long ago. But it was their legal counsel at HarperCollins. So, they were not willing to help in any way. So oh, actually, they did offer to that maybe they could give me some backstage passes to one of her speaking engagements. So, I did not take them. But anyway, so then we started reaching out to the to the community, we were trying to find author guilds, community organizations that worked with, you know, justice issues. We were trying to find attorneys that could give us some legal advice. We scoured the internet, we talked with other authors, trying to find out what they would do if they had any contacts. And we probably were at this, you know, for at least a year and a half. I mean, my time concept is not a strong suit. But we were trying very hard to get traction and handle this biblically, where it says go to the person who is offended and take somebody with you if they don’t respond. And we did all those steps. And when we continued to be met with just a very unwilling and mean spirit, I think we decided it’s time to look for help outside, and we couldn’t find any. And then finally, a fellow author suggested this law firm, and I reached out to them, and they graciously took my case. And things started to roll.
JULIE ROYS 28:12
Reminded me a little bit when you first told me about this of when I was at Moody Radio. And James MacDonald got caught gambling in Vegas. And I remember I’m stunned. So, I you know, I go to the Senior VP of broadcasting, Greg Thornton, and I, I’m like, Greg, what, what the heck is going on? We got a guy gambling, you know, and he’s on Moody Radio. I mean, this is so bizarre, you know, at the time, and I’m just, you know, he assures me that they’re, they’re working hard, you know, with James, and he’s, you know, he’s really repentant about that. And he’s really coming along, and they’re pastorally helping him blah, blah, blah. I find out not long after this, that he had actually been gambling with the chairman of the board of the Moody Bible Institute, Jerry Jenkins. So that might explain a little bit why he continued to be platformed by Moody. Besides the fact that they were selling a lot of his books and all. I didn’t understand any of that at that point. I’m just thinking, if I go to the people in charge, somehow, they just must be missing it, you know. I mean, to me, you know, little old stupid me somehow, I think that gambling in Vegas and being a pastor preaching the gospel is incongruous. But maybe I’m missing something right? At this point, you’re thinking, maybe if I can talk to Christine, this, this is just a misunderstanding, right? I don’t want to put words in your mouth. But I remember you saying something along those lines when we talked before.
CAREY SCOTT 29:45
And we did end up talking on the phone. And I did think that she’s going to make this right. Like surely when she understands how this felt to me. It felt like abuse all over again because You know, I had some very personal stories in that book of sexual abuse. Like it was not, you know, I wasn’t writing about puppies and rainbows, I was writing about hard issues. And so, I just thought maybe, you know, she’ll come around and she’ll help a sister out, you know? How many times have we reached back and taking the hand of somebody on the same path that we’re on and helped pull them forward? I mean, aren’t we on the same team? was my thought. Like, so she’ll make this right. And I think I was very hopeful and very naive. And there were some promises made, that I don’t really want to share, that she was going to do, that never came to pass. And weeks went by, and weeks went by. And I remember calling her. She was about to go on stage at a big event, in I think New York. And she, I think her comment to me was something like, I know that you’ve been waiting a long time for this stuff to come through. But four weeks to you is like one night to me. I’m just so busy. And I think I thought right there, this is just not going to happen. Like this is, you know, duped again.
JULIE ROYS 31:14
The hubris of that statement, like my times more valuable than yours? I mean, that’s how that comes across to me. I don’t know if that’s how she intended it. But, but wow, that’s breathtaking.
CAREY SCOTT 31:25
Well, it was breathtaking. And I, you know, I had looked up to her. I had admired her. I had promoted her, you know. I really thought that she would want to make it right. And for whatever reason, she did not. And I can’t do anything about that. So that’s when we started moving forward, I think with legal, and it just, you know, it snowballed from there. And, but then it stopped flat. Because once you know, all of this had come out in discovery, and whatever we had shared actually didn’t go to discovery because we weren’t in court itself. We were about to go into court. But all the information that had been shared with her when sort of coming to light, and then we had reporters, journalists were writing about it, some very well-intentioned people, some very kind journalists that reached out to me and said, how can I help you? Some authors that pointed me in the right direction that said, how can I help you? It just became crickets. And it’s the gift that keeps giving. So, I just shut my mouth too.
JULIE ROYS 32:29
And so, people realize, like, if you’ve never been in this, I have been sued. So, I know what that’s like, I ended up getting all of my legal fees paid by the person who sued me and then some because it was completely without merit. But it is when that person has millions of dollars, and you have very, you know, modest means, it’s scary. I remember my case when I was sued, like, I called my buddy Charlie, who was in my small group, and I’m like, Charlie, I just got sued. It’s by James McDonald and Harvest. And I just got sued. And I remember he was like, Julie, you know, send me the lawsuit, send it and he looked at it. And then he called me back. And he was laughing, actually. And he’s like, tell me you want me to represent you? I’m like, not really sure what he’s asking. He’s like, Julie, you have to tell me, and I said, okay, Charlie, I want you to represent me. And then I mean, he’s like, we’ve got this, don’t worry, I’ve got your back. If I can get paid great. If not, I’ve still got your back. And I cannot tell you to this day. I mean, I’m so indebted to Charlie for that, because I couldn’t have functioned had I not. I mean, it is so scary to have your name in national headlines being sued by you know, people much bigger than you that everybody else knows and trust. And you’re you know, the little person in this and nobody really knows you very well. It’s very scary. And to have somebody come alongside you is huge. But it took you months to do this and you finally got a lawyer who said wasn’t he willing to take it on contingency, which means he doesn’t get paid if you don’t get paid? So, you don’t have to like otherwise you divvy up what I mean? Tens of thousands of dollars at least.
CAREY SCOTT 34:19
I would have had to and I’m so grateful to them. And you know what’s funny is I have had a couple of people reach out to me since then, with their own plagiarism scandals and ask who my attorneys were. So, I’ve been able to pass that on to them. But you know, it was also very interesting is when you feel so alone, and you have not found anybody to represent you, you have not found anybody that will speak you know good things and to your chances of salvaging your words. I had a lot of my family and even some of my friends who just loved me, and I know it was out of love, but they just kept saying, just stop. Just quit doing this. Just let it go. And they weren’t saying that because they didn’t see the validity in it. They were saying that because they loved me. And they saw that it was just eating me alive. And they, they wanted the best for me. And so even knowing the motives and appreciating greatly how much they cared about me, I just felt so alone. And, you know, even my then husband just was not super supportive of this either. So, it was a hard road to walk. And so, when this attorney came in and said, yes, I see validity, and you have something here, and this is an injustice, and I will stand with you. It was the most amazing feeling.
JULIE ROYS 35:42
Well, I did have a gift of a husband who stood by me and said the whole way, I’m with you. And still is because I get a little bit of heat for the work that I do. Just a little bit. And but he’s always with me. And it’s huge. It’s absolutely huge. If I didn’t have that at home, I couldn’t do what I do at all. So very appreciative for that. So, I know you can’t talk about the specifics of the settlement. But I guess I’m curious, as you look back. Are there any regrets about what happened? Or do you feel like that was the right decision right time?
CAREY SCOTT 36:21
It’s speculation, right? because the decision that I did make was absolutely the right decision. My kids are far more important than anything I would put on paper. So that was definitely the right decision then. Part of me wishes I could have gone forward. There was reason to go forward. There was justification to go forward. But I also believe that if that was God’s plan, then he would have cleared the path for that to happen. So, I can’t get stuck in I wish this or I, you know, hoped this would have happened. I have to trust that God is sovereign. And this is the way he planned it to go before the creation of the world. And I have to find my peace and comfort in his presence, rather than wishing things had been different. In my flesh, yes!. I mean, in my flesh, you know, I would have put on war paint on my face, and you know, walked around the publishing house seven times and blown a trumpet. Like, I would have done some damage. But that’s fleshy. And that’s, you know, but I, I have to trust that God allowed this to happen the way that he had planned, and I have to find peace with that.
JULIE ROYS 37:38
And at some point, we just have to trust. You know, vengeance is the Lord’s and injustice, this side of eternity. Sometimes we get justice, and it’s beautiful when it happens. But a lot of times, there is not justice this side of heaven. And, and I know, even with my reporting, I always feel like I know what my job is. This is my lane. I know. But I’ve seen people who can’t let go of it. And it’s like, we did our job. We spoke the truth. And now, if people want to keep following these people, if they want to keep buying their books, going to their church, whatever it is, that’s on them. And you know, that’s between them, and God and God to work it out someday. But I can’t. I mean, I’ve seen it eat people up. And you really, I’ve always felt like, I have to be faithful to what I’m called to do. But I’m not called to do more than I can do. And we’re finite.
CAREY SCOTT 38:31
Mm hmm. That’s why I don’t follow her. That’s why I don’t look at what she’s doing. If I know that she’s doing something, it’s only because somebody has said something to me, usually in a very snarky attitude, like, can you believe this? You know? And I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, don’t tell me, I don’t want to know. Don’t tell me what’s happening. I can’t, my heart can’t handle it. And so, I don’t follow what she does. I mean, more power to her. I hope that God is transforming who she is and calling her to justice and doing all of the things that he has done to me in countless, you know, countless situations, but I can’t worry about what’s going on with that. Bitterness and unforgiveness will eat me alive. So, I think when I see people post things, like you should forgive her, it just when they do snarky things, I just want to say to them, you have no idea what I have done to get myself to a healthy, emotional, fairly mentally stable situation. You know, like I have had to do a lot of work with the Lord to just continue to write and continue to speak and do ministry. So, when they sit there and judge me on those things that I’ve worked so hard to not be or to not have, like unforgiveness. It’s infuriating that keyboard soldiers that get out there and just annihilate people.
JULIE ROYS 39:56
You have continued to write, which has been really awesome. I know you’ve done a lot of devotional books, but you also just released a book Unafraid: Be You, Be Authentic, Find the Grit and Grace to Shine. How much of this book, you know, I know all your books are very personal, but I’m curious having come through what you came through and that season of your life, how much of that informed this book or found its way into the pages of this book?
CAREY SCOTT 40:24
It’s funny, I looked back on this book, and Unafraid came out in 2018. And I’m realizing that as I was launching this book, I was in the middle of the suit. I launched this book, and I remember coming into my launch team group on Facebook and telling them what I had just discovered about my ex-husband. Like this book. so, the writing of it was one thing, but the launching of it, I was just, I had to step off the launch team. I could not help promote this book very well, because I was just floored. Literally on the floor trying to pick myself up just to get my kids out the door to school in the morning, just to pay bills and work and whatever. So, but as I was reading through this book, this weekend, I knew that you and I were going to talk about it. It’s so relevant for where I am right now. And I love that because I wrote it then. But you know, as with everything I write, I really feel like I write it for me, because I desperately need that message. And if anybody else benefits from it, that’s fantastic. But I’ve been afraid to be who I really am for a long time. And so, part of this journey of being an author and a speaker is working that out in public, is sharing those situations that shut me down, shut me up, made me afraid to be myself, make me feel very tangled and unimportant and unvaluable. And so, reading through this book, it was it just ministered to my heart a little bit thinking, you know, the chapter I read it specifically was one about not shrinking back when you’re faced with a Goliath. And I have I have shrinked back a little bit. And I’ve had to reconcile that some. But it’s been a tough season.
JULIE ROYS 42:20
Well, I know that a lot of people that that follow me, that listen to this podcast, I know because they send me emails, and they say, one it validates because there’s so many people who have been the victims of church hurt or the victims of just abuse by people in positions of authority. And it does it robs you in some ways of your voice. And it makes you question your voice because you have the gaslighting going on, saying you must be nuts, or you must be this, that or the other thing that this bothers you. Why does this bother you? And, and so I know it ministers to them, to hear this and to hear the story. But I guess I want to give you an opportunity just to speak directly to people who have been the victims of this kind, you know, it might look very, very different. I know you have sexual abuse in your in your background as well, but who have been the victims of someone in power, using that power to rob something from you that they had no right to take?
CAREY SCOTT 43:26
Gosh, that’s a big request, Julie. Because I feel like there’s a million things I could say. And I think it would be so dependent on what that person needed to hear in the moment. Because there are different stages. We need to hear different things that are times I needed to hear that people had righteous anger for what had happened to me. There were times I needed people just to put their arms around me and tell me that I was loved and that I was valuable. I needed. You know, there were other times where I needed people to actually do the work for me and stand in the gap and fill in the, you know, make up the differences because I couldn’t do it. So, you know, if I were to have like a blanket message for someone who has faced any kind of abuse or been a victim, it’s the hardest when it’s from somebody in the faith because you feel like you’ve found a team and you kind of let your guard down. And so, when that happens it catches you off guard. You just don’t see it coming. But my I guess my overall message would be that if you’re a victim of that, like that is a real truth and you need to get help for that. And I don’t know what that means. Like for me it was you know, the steps of talking with my agent and then talking with our publisher, was a step you know, then going to trying to look for community help and then trying to you know, get legal support. So, it’s going to be different for everybody. But I think what happens is we feel so much shame and the difference between that guilt and shame you know, guilt is you feel bad about what you did, but shame you feel bad about who you are. And I feel like shame always accompanies being a victim of abuse. Because somehow you find you’re told, or you feel like it’s your fault, you’ve done something, you should just let it go, you should forgive them. They’re a pastor. You should, you know, take the high road. They’re a very important public figure or their whatever it might be. And so, you just cover yourself with shame. And I just would encourage anybody that’s facing that to not stay quiet. I don’t advocate going scorched earth. I don’t feel like that is what needs to happen. But I think staying silent and cowering back and letting the abuse continue or letting the abuse go unchecked is a disservice to anybody else who could be a victim down the road. I do think there’s a time where we are quiet. I feel like there was a time when God shut my mouth, which is a big undertaking. I feel like there are times that God, you know, like, like, last week, when I posted that on Facebook, I felt like I had permission to share that. But still, I wanted to make sure that his name was glorified through it. I mean, I don’t want to cause anybody to fall because of what I’ve been through. I don’t want people to hate her. I don’t want people to cancel her. I just want people to be aware and careful. And I would like her to be called to accountability. But if that doesn’t happen, that’s okay, too.
JULIE ROYS 46:38
Well, accountability is biblical. And if someone’s faith is destroyed because a Christian celebrity turns out to not be or what they thought they were or disappoints them, then truly your faith is in the wrong place.
CAREY SCOTT 46:53
JULIE ROYS 46:54
But Carey, I just want to thank you for being willing to, you know, share so openly, something that was so painful. And I feel like I’ve known you for only a few days, but I feel like you’re a sister, and just really great to get to know you and do just so appreciate your ministry.
CAREY SCOTT 47:12
Yeah, thank you, Julie. Here’s one of the things I loved about you reaching out to me. In all of the journalists that asked me about this situation, when it first happened, it was all about the facts. But you’re the first person in this, you know, arena that asked me how I felt. And that was really validating just to have somebody asked me how I felt about it, not what are the facts behind it. And I appreciate that very much just the opportunity to share some of my heart and to just be open and honest about what that does to somebody to be a victim in that way. And so, thank you for what you do. I appreciate it very much.
JULIE ROYS 47:55
Well, I consider it an honor to be able to tell these stories or give them a platform. So, thank you, I really appreciate it. And thanks so much for listening to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And I want to mention that we’re offering Carey’s latest book, Unafraid, as our premium for the month of March. And I think this is going to be a real encouragement to all of you women out there but men as well. If you have people in your life that you really love, women that are close to you, I think it will be a great book for them as well. So, if you give a gift of $25 or more to The Roy’s Report in the month of March, we’ll send you a copy of Unafraid and you’ll be supporting this important ministry. If you’d like to connect with me online just go to Julieroys.com. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roy’s Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, we’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about this podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for listening. I hope you have a great day and God bless.