One of the nation’s best-known pastors made a surprise visit to the floor of the annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Rick Warren, author of “The Purpose Driven Life” and pastor of Saddleback Church — one of the denomination’s largest churches — told delegates from local churches, known as messengers, that he was grateful for the SBC.
“I love Southern Baptists,” he said.
He then urged Southern Baptists to set aside their differences and work together to spread the gospel around the world. Warren also said Baptists are able to overcome all kinds of theological differences and still cooperate.
“As Western culture becomes more dark, more evil, more secular, we have to decide: Are we going to treat each other as allies or not?” he said.
Your tax-deductible gift helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of “Hurt and Healed by the Church” by Ryan George. To donate, click here.
Warren’s appeal came as members of the nation’s largest Protestant denomination were considering expelling Saddleback for violating a ban on woman pastors.
While Saddleback does not use the word “Baptist” in its name, the church is affiliated with the 13.7 million-member SBC. Warren started the Southern California church in 1980 after graduating from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. The bestselling author spoke at the SBC Pastors’ Conference in 2011.
In May 2021, the church ordained Liz Puffer, Cynthia Petty and Katie Edwards as staff pastors. That move put Saddleback in the middle of a divide over the SBC’s statement of faith, which restricts the office of pastor to men. Some Southern Baptists say that ban on women pastors only applies to the senior pastor of a church. Others, like Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President Al Mohler, say no woman should serve as a pastor in any capacity.
The issue of women pastors and women preachers caused a national debate in 2020, after Bible teacher Beth Moore tweeted about speaking at a church on Mother’s Day. That led to claims that women preachers were invading the SBC, which remains an issue for critics of SBC leadership like Florida pastor Tom Ascol, a leading candidate for SBC president. Moore would eventually leave the denomination in part because she said the uproar over women preaching was overshadowing the SBC’s abuse crisis.
Raising the stakes, Saddleback also recently announced Warren would retire this fall and Andy and Stacie Wood, who pastor a Silicon Valley church, would succeed him. Andy Wood is currently lead pastor at Echo Church, a multisite church, while Stacie Wood serves as a teaching pastor. They would have the same roles at Saddleback.
Mohler told media in 2021 that ordaining a woman pastor violates Baptist and biblical teaching: “Saddleback has taken actions that place itself in direct conflict with the stated doctrines of the Southern Baptist Convention.”
Last year, Shad Tibbs, pastor of Fellowship Baptist Church in Trout, Louisiana, called on the SBC to “break fellowship” with Saddleback and any other church that has women pastors. That request, made at the SBC’s 2021 annual meeting in Nashville, Tennessee, was referred to the credentials committee, which is charged with deciding whether or not churches are in “friendly cooperation” with the SBC.
Earlier Tuesday, Linda Cooper, chair of the credentials committee, told messengers that the committee was not yet ready to make a recommendation about Saddleback, given that Southern Baptists disagree about whether the ban applies to the lead or senior pastor of a church — or to any staff member at a church being called a pastor.
“The Credentials Committee has found little information evidencing the Convention’s beliefs regarding the use of the ‘title of pastor’ for staff positions with different responsibility and authority than that of the lead pastor,” the committee said in its report.
Instead, the committee recommended creating a study group to look at the issue.
That met with immediate opposition from Mohler, who said a study committee was not needed. Mohler served on the committee that revised the SBC statement of faith to include the ban on women pastors and said Southern Baptists know what the word “pastor” means.
Jack Maddox, a pastor and messenger from First Baptist Church of Jacksboro, Texas, also opposed appointing a study group.
“We do not need another committee, although well-intended, to speak to this issue for our church or for this convention,” he said. “We have a book that has already spoken to it. ”
Adam Greenway, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, proposed amending the committee’s recommendation to have a broader study about how closely churches need to follow the SBC statement of faith. After a break, that amendment was defeated.
After Warren’s speech, the credentials committee withdrew its recommendation. Doing so postponed any further action on the motion for now. The credentials committee will continue to meet during the year and may make a decision about Saddleback in the months to come.
Churches have been expelled from the SBC in the past for having gay members, for mishandling sexual abuse and for racist actions. While churches have left the SBC after naming women pastors in the past, no church had previously been expelled for having a woman pastor.
Before he left the floor, Warren challenged messengers to focus on finishing the Great Commission — Jesus’ command to spread the gospel around the world. Warren plans to spend his post-Saddleback years working with the Finishing the Task Network, which hopes to expand missionary work.
“Are we to keep bickering over secondary issues?” he said. “Or are we going to keep the main thing the main thing?”
Bob Smietana is a national reporter for Religion News Service.
English 
Spanish
48 Responses
I want to be careful here, as I am not saying that churches that have female pastors are not gospel-preaching. Saddleback should be removed from the SBC. Warren’s appeal is based on the commonality in the gospel that we share. That is true, but it is also faulty. Why have SBC and PCA? We both believe the gospel. But we have two different denominations. Why is that? Theological triage. Having a female pastor is not a gospel issue, but like paedo-baptism, it is a second-level issue that is significant enough to make us part of different churches. The semantic word games in the SBC about this are ridiculous.
I don’t know if it’s appropriate to post links to YouTube videos here, but I just did a two part series on the arguments for and against female pastors on YouTube and TikTok that was well received. I simply presented the arguments and let the reader decide. For: https://youtu.be/mCb4aeLozwE Against: https://youtu.be/s7cEOrbGcZc
Step outside of the evangelical world for even just a little bit, and all of this starts to sounds like satire.
The good news is that the Gospel still exists (and actually thrives) out in the real world.
It’s pretty simple
Warren is simply a severely compromised enemy of the gospel
Of course he is going to side in with what we all have in common !
Lol
It’s called COMPROMISE! Error in truth equals Apostate gospel a false gospel a gospel that sends to hell and enemy of Christ an Enemy of TRUTH!
John 17:17 Thy WORD is TRUTH
NOW WHAT DID JESUS SAY?
I’ve come not to bring peace but a sword !!
Sword of the SPIRIT!! His WORD!
John 17:17 THY WORD IS TRUTH!
Warren’s word is a pac of LIES filling the pews with blind biblically ILLITERATE SHEEP ON THEIR WAY TO THE MEGA CHURCH SLAUGHTERING HOUSE WHERE WARREN AND HIS KIND AWAIT THEM WITH A BUTCHERING BLOCK IN HAND AND A SMILE ON HIS FACE!
Tim.
So what you’re saying is, because he allows women to preach and pastor from the pulpit, he and his church are headed straight to h e double toothpicks. Ok, hell.
You are missing the point, man. Wasting so much time. You’re focused on Pharisee’ical matters which mean absolute JACK SQUAT.
Warren keeps it simple. The simple good news of Jesus Christ (which he believes and preaches)…through loving God as best you can…and loving your neighbor. As yourself.
But that’s not enough for you Pharisee-legalistic pimps. It’s just not enough.
You’re missing the point. Really missing the point, Tim. And you’re wasting time. Get back to what really matters. Loving God as best you can. And giving the same consideration to your neighbor that you egostistically would give yourself. It’s not too late. When life kicks your a$$, it might be the wake up call you really need to see and be reminded of what really matters.
It has nothing to do with women preachers. As I have slowly learned along the way.
dean you’re my hero. But I do wish, as a member of saddleback, that Rick would remind the SBC we don’t need them nor do most of us even know we are part of the SBC.I didn’t till about two years ago and I’ve been a member since 2015.
The struggle being considered here and voiced almost everywhere is actually only two-fold. There should only be one driving decision, not two.
Who cares what any clergyman thinks, what his opinion is, what he thinks should prevail? The liberals must be jumping up and down with joy. Why? They have succeeded in creating opposing viewpoints with Christianity where the issue is no longer about being obedient The Word of God but being properly aligned with our particular brand of denominational preferences.
I’m sorry but might doesn’t make right. A large congregation, deep pockets (read financial here), it shouldn’t matter but unfortunately it does here in North America. Churchmen are tempted to throw their weight around far too readily in an attempt to appeal to the masses as if all things are made right by the democratic process. If we took the mask off this issue, we would find that the feminist movement has worked subtly over the years to ask, “Did God say?”, did God say.
Be half obedient, go along with me and my idea of what we should do______ folks, that is what leadership is all about these days, control the masses, and have some plan to mitigate damage control should one large group walk away.
These things turn my stomach and are why I do not want to have any part of church government.
I’m disappointed in Rick. He should have reminded the SBC, saddleback is a success because of the people seeing value in the church and message taught to us on a weekly basis. Not because it’s a part of an organization that hides abusers for years. We members don’t need the SBC and most of us weren’t even aware we are part of a Baptist organization. I am not a Baptist. I’m a Christian
I think that the SBC should revise the Baptist Faith and Message to accept both complementarians and egalitarians. Good Christians and good Baptists have different opinions on women in ministry. Dr. Al Mohler would display incredible and courageous leadership if he welcomed Baptist beliefs on secondary matters which differ from his own views.
The Baptist cult is straight out of the TV series called the handmaiden tale. Story on daily mail site. Wife escaped a Baptist abusive minister. All toxic Baptist calling this poor wife out of touch with god as he poured his Baptist wrath on her. She finally escaped his tyrant ways. God bless her.
If you’re a referencing The Handmaiden’s Tale here, you need to read more Bible and watch a lot less TV. You have been deceived.
Nice try Ted. So what skeletons do you have in the closet? Is it you enjoy the burning them at the stake or keeping there mouths shut and barefoot and pregnant. Anyone defending the Baptist cult just told the world. Woman are second class citizens. It took thirty years to conclude protecting abusers is bad. At least they agree slavery and the KKK is no longer good. Back in the 1800s they sure found scripture to back it existence. Them good ole boys in the south. Mostly god loving Baptists. So yes handmaiden tale isn’t to much of a stretch if they had the authority to do it.
Has there ever been a time when Pastor Rock (Star) Warren doesn’t try to get his copious face in the limelight?
I’m sorry but you lost me forever here, Brian. A fat joke? Really?
The spite and vitriol you have shown toward Warren and anyone who has anything but a hateful opinion of him is completely unacceptable in the body of Christ. I don’t want to hear about Jesus and the Pharisees or Paul and false teachers.
Jesus didn’t make fun of the way people looked to make his point. It’s beyond childish. This is beyond childish.
Mark Gunderson,
The real Pharisees are the sleek, hip, urbane, trendy “Christian” leaders that are idolized by the world (and in exchange, idolize the world). You don’t cram 7000 seats in a “sanctuary” that resembles a stadium by faithfully preaching the message that the perishing, all of them, have one way to heaven and that that is by dying to self, repenting without qualification, and accepting the blood atonement of Jesus the Christ. The one true Gospel was never politically correct, and it never will be.
“Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.”
“With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.”
“Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.”
“Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.”
“Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.”
“But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.”
“self-appointed Christian potentates that live like movie stars on the backs of flocks that are, in large part, worse-off than the secular American mean in terms of education, income, household debt, and health?”
Whatever license you imagine you have, we are commanded repeatedly not to revile, but be gracious. No caveats.
Plus, you are describing the exact opposite of South Orange County, California. It’s probably the geographic center of wealthy, educated, fit evangelical Christianity.
Mark Gunderson, Marin Heiskell,
“Whatever license you imagine you have, we are commanded repeatedly not to revile, but be gracious. No caveats.”
Ahem… “whitewashed tombs”? “Vipers”? “Sons of the devil”? Those are vastly more scathing than any of my or Trump’s critical remarks about various modern figures. So, no, your “commandment” is not Biblical.
“Plus, you are describing the exact opposite of South Orange County, California. It’s probably the geographic center of wealthy, educated, fit evangelical Christianity.”
Unless you are a native Southern Californian, I ask you to step aside and listen to someone who is. Do you really not believe some people commute far and wide to hear the “good news” of Saddleback? And, even within SOC, do you not think that there are sick people, people drowning in debt who cannot sustain their lifestyle, people with broken marriages, etc. who desperately have turned to Warren and give him money they may not really have?
It is generally not comfortable, successful people who have their lives together who turn to God and the church–particularly, seeker-sensitive megachurches like Saddleback and the prosperity-gospel churches (and IMO most megachurches are at least a mild form of the prosperity gospel).
Brian –
You conveniently avoided addressing the degrading fat joke. I stand with Mark – and with scriptures Mark references – on it being unnecessary and unBiblical.
Marin Heiskell, Mark Gunderson,
What do you think the apostles and Christ himself would have said about self-appointed Christian potentates that live like movie stars on the backs of flocks that are, in large part, worse-off than the secular American mean in terms of education, income, household debt, and health?
Unlike the two of you, I have driven by the Saddleback “church administrative offices” in Mission Viejo, California–recently. Wells Fargo and IBM and Walmart would be lucky to have such ostentatious corporate edifices as their headquarters. Very Scriptural, eh?
Acts 23:3: “Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting to judge me according to the law, and yet contrary to the law you order me to be struck?””
Matthew 12:34: “You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.”
2 Timothy 4:3: “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[a] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions…”
John 8:44: “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
I guess Jesus and Paul were tares, not really saved, because they said some mean things that hurt the feelings of the religious bigshots of their day?
Brian –
How do you know I haven’t been to Saddleback? I attended university in California, became a disciple in California, and – yes – attended a small church (~150 members) that thrived under the guidance of Warren’s “Purpose Driven Church”. I don’t understand the vitriol and justification for hurling fat jokes at Warren; as I shared on a prior post, I have been richly blessed by his books, and saw my relationships with God and fellow believers really grow and change when following the frameworks and suggestions in his books. I pray the best for Saddleback, because I have seen (and been a part of) churches of ALL sizes struggle in seasons of leadership transitions.
And I am just agreeing to disagree on your use of mean-spirited language. You constantly have justifications for it, where I believe that confrontations and judgments are to drive people TO the cross and towards repentance. Jesus was holding a mirror up to hypocrites and religious leaders to call them to repent, not to be condescending and mean just to hurt feelings. But you LOVE the condescending and mean part. You cheer for and defend hurting others feelings ‘in the name of Jesus.’ As someone who struggled with weight for several years, I NEVER had a fat joke hurled at me that helped me draw closer to God. It just made me cry and hurt myself instead. But hey….”Jesus did it”, so it’s all ok, right? And yes, that is what the people at a legalistic church I attended said to defend being cruel to me, too. So you have company.
I can appreciate Rick being the adult in the room trying to get everyone to keep their eye on the ball. What Paul passed along as having “first importance” (1 Cor 15:3) is not what preoccupies so much of the discussion, unfortunately. But I guess for some, everything is of first importance.
Julie, I’m glad for and appreciate your words standing up for our Christian faith. Among all the debate about SBC are some worthwhile comments. Have you ever shared any considerations concerning First Baptist Church of Dallas and Pastor Robert Jeffress? I read his daily devotional and sometimes their TV, but sometimes I just wonder about their overall operations..
Richard DeVries,
I’m skeptical of ANY megachurch leader… even the ones that undeniably started off completely legit, like the late Chuck Smith. There are zero Biblical verses suggesting that our leaders and teachers become icons and celebrities that are adored.
I’ve mixed feelings on Jeffress. As with all megachurch leaders, I am skeptical that there’s no temptation to say what it takes to bring the seekers swarming in, but at least he was willing to take a huge hit to his mainstream popularity and reputation by supporting Trump early on. Was that the right choice? I don’t conclusively know but at least he showed more conviction than Warren.
The article is a bit misleading. Dozens of SBC churches have women as senior pastors, and many more have women who serve on ministerial staff leadership positions, some with, some without the title of pastor. SBC churches have had women as senior pastors since 1964. In 2000, the SBC adopted a new Baptist Faith and Message that for the first time said that women cannot be pastors. It did not define “pastor”. Because of Baptist polity, the Baptist Faith and message is not binding on any church or other denominational organization.
Note that nowhere does the Bible say “women cannot be pastors” or anything similar regarding the office of pastor. The view espoused in the 2000 Baptist Faith and message is contrary to the Scripture.
“Paul instructs women to be silent in the church, not speaking for the mere sake of learning. In doing so, he goes to the Law for his authority that women should be under obedience. However, when he veils the woman who prophesies, he demonstrates that even they have the right of prophesying. Tertullian Circa 207
“It is not permitted to a woman to speak in the church, nor to teach, baptize, offer, or to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to mention the Priestly office.” Tertullian Circa 207
“A woman should be silent in the church. In the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: “Let women be silent in the church. But if any wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home.” Also in Timothy: “Let a woman learn with silence and all subjection. But I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to be set over the man, but to be in silence.” Cyprian Circa 250
I suppose they started down this slippery slope when they allowed women to open their mouths in church to begin with. By this hermeneutic, virtually every modern church is in open rebellion to God by ignoring the biblical command to great each other with a holy kiss.
Exactly, Loren. Same for head/hair coverings; is any modern church wearing those?
One thing remains consistent – NOTHING gets the church gets riled up like the topics of women in leadership and homosexuality. It’s as if the church doesn’t know (or want to acknowledge) that scripture has A LOT more to say about lying, adultery, fornication, gossip, slander, hatred, and legalism than it does women in leadership and homosexuality. Perhaps because the former hits closer to home….
Also, denominations are man-made. It can be argued they are factions, which is also spoken against in scripture.
My mother lives in an area where she often interacts with old order Mennonites who do practice the head covering. She muses how some of these women wear the covering yet treat their husbands in a domineering manner :)
But, writing a tithe check…they can do that right?
Great! Exegesis by scissors. Remove a passage from its time and Paul’s intent and you can go anywhere you like.
The starting point for his game is surely Galatians 3:28. Everything has to be read in the light of this.
“As Western culture becomes more dark, more evil, more secular, we have to decide: Are we going to treat each other as allies or not?…Are we to keep bickering over secondary issues? Or are we going to keep the main thing the main thing?”
This is a classic manipulative tactic of anyone who wants to avoid an issue. In a few sentences, he is:
1. Making the claim that women pastors is a “secondary issue”, which is his opinion, not a fact.
2. Claiming that to even talk about it is to detract from spreading the gospel, which it is not, otherwise the apostle Paul is guilty of this.
3. Claiming that the only dialog about the issue being had is “bickering”, thereby demonizing anyone with an opposing view.
4. If you are doing step three, then you are getting in the way of “kingdom work”. Or worse, you are helping promote the “dark, evil, secular” culture.
In short, this is actually how ABUSERS talk. The fact is that his future replacement will have his wife as a female pastor, and Warren is trying to get his own way in the SBC, but using “spreading the gospel” as cover. This is blasphemous, abusive talk on his part. This the very thing Diane Langberg warns about in the recent podcast from the Restore conference.
What is the role of the new pastor’s wife? Women can minister to and pastor other women. I have been to many churches led by couples, with both husband and wife in pastoring roles, and the wife focused on women’s ministry. Doesn’t scripture call older women to teach the younger?
I do believe it is God’s design for men to lead the church – just as it is His design for men to lead their homes/families, and for those homes/families to consist of two heterosexual parents. HOWEVER, God’s will will NOT be denied by our sin. If men are unwilling to lead (for whatever reason), I do believe God will raise up a woman to get His will done. We see God raise prophets and disciples up fdespite their being from polygamous households, being born out of wedlock, and struggling with other sinful situations that would have us up in ARMS today. The underlying lesson: it’s NOT His best (sin comes with consequences), but it does NOT stop His will.
So what do I see when it comes to women preaching? Churches with congregations that have an imbalance of women to men. Where are the men? If the same men outraged about a woman leading used that same passion to spread the gospel to more men, and raise up more male disciples, we’d be better equipped as a body to take on Satan. Because this is spiritual warfare. And what is the top tactic of warfare? Take out the men. As it is in the physical, it is in the spiritual.
Kevin Benedict,
“In short, this is actually how ABUSERS talk. The fact is that his future replacement will have his wife as a female pastor, and Warren is trying to get his own way in the SBC, but using “spreading the gospel” as cover. This is blasphemous, abusive talk on his part. This the very thing Diane Langberg warns about in the recent podcast from the Restore conference.”
Amen to this. Everything the professional activist class projects onto its opponents, is true of themselves.
The only “gospel” Rock (Star) Warren has ever been interested in spreading, is the Gospel of Rock (Star) Warren.
Commentary by the early Church on the role of women within the church.
“But the woman of pertness, who has usurped the power to teach, will of course not give birth for herself likewise to a right of baptizing! For how credible would it seem, that He who has not permitted a woman even to learn with over boldness, should give a female the power of teaching and of baptizing! He says, “Let them be silent and consult their husbands at home.” Tertullian Circa 198
Paul instructs women to be silent in the church, not speaking for the mere sake of learning. In doing so, he goes to the Law for his authority that women should be under obedience. However, when he veils the woman who prophesies, he demonstrates that even they have the right of prophesying. Tertullian Circa 207
It is not permitted to a woman to speak in the church, nor to teach, baptize, offer, or to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to mention the Priestly office. Tertullian Circa 207
A woman should be silent in the church. In the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: “Let women be silent in the church. But if any wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home.” Also in Timothy: “Let a woman learn with silence and all subjection. But I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to be set over the man, but to be in silence.” Cyprian Circa 250
No Jeanine be silent. Remember your place and remember it’s okay to give the church your money BUT do it QUIETLY. There I now can change my name to Paul. Over the years I’ve grown weary of old rich evangelical white men using our bro Paul as an excuse to abuse there positions. I think just maybe the Bible was written not by godly guidance but by the malignant narcissist of there time. Reminder the Bible was put together around 300ad by a lot of self serving godly men. Ya think maybe a few Falwell and Copeland were there pushing there agendas?
A malignant narcissist would not refer to himself as the chief of sinners, among many other things that characterize the life of Paul. Place yourself in a 1st century pagan society that would riot over defending Artemas worship and see how easy it is to establish a church that runs counter to the norms of that society.
Sad that men who profess that the Word of God is infallible simply relabel it as “secondary issues” when they do not want to submit to the totality of Scripture. God is holy and these abusers are not remotely seeking righteousness. Forget women pastors as no one staying in the SBC should be in a pulpit as they clearly do not know God is holy and grieved by their so-called ministries. God and His Son are the main thing and we are grass to be burned.
Everyone seems to be misdirected by Warren here as the far greater danger is in what he defines as the great commission. Best remember that in his own words that means the purpose driven agenda and his entirely unbiblical PEACE plan . When he tickles the ego of SBC saying you guys can put doctrinal differences aside to work together that is the yeast of the Pharisees in a handy hypodermic needle…. to cooperate with his alternate gospel requires that you suspend even the notion of sound doctrine taking the priority over expedient unity for some earthly purpose. Remember this is the guy on record telling pastors at his conferences that if we all adopted the PEACE plan that the things in Revelation no longer need to happen !!! A specific curse on anyone who deletes even a word from Rev is written in it so what about a so called Pastor that counsels we can delete the whole book by following him!! What manner of spirit that is ought to be more than obvious. Best wake up before its too late.
There is coming a time in this country when Christians are going to be more persecuted than they have ever even thought about. It is beginning now even. I don’t rhink the persecutors are gonna care so much about who believes in women pastors and who doesn’t. Nor do I think the persecuted are gonna be all that concerned either. The persecuted will just be happy to have another believer in the trial with them. We have these divisions in evangelicalism in America, within “orthodoxy” because we have the liberty / freedom to do so. If that is ever taken away these differences won’t amount to a “hill of beans” . With those thoughts in mind what Rick Warren said makes some sense whether you agree with him or not…. my 2 cents .
Good job Shannon. You are so on the money. Go to Christian post. Weekly our brothers and sisters are murdered in Africa and Pakistan and China. And the church barely can agree on abusing the flock should not be tolerated. It took the Baptist thirty years to come to that conclusion. Do you think a woman pastor in Africa should be shunned because she bravely speaks gods word. I bet if the Copelands sold have of what the own they could pay for 24/7 private security. But then they would only be a multi millionaire as Jesse duplantis once bragged. Oh yeah American evangelicals. There right in tune with Jesus.
I second Shannon and Gary. And don’t call it Christian persecution in America until people are in chains and heads are being lopped off because you dare to utter that Jesus Christ is Lord.
We have no idea in America what persecution really is. NO IDEA. But once we do…read Shannon’s words again.
Gary Weigel,
“Weekly our brothers and sisters are murdered in Africa and Pakistan and China.”
Very true, but with the exception of China, those doing the murdering in these cases are jihadists–Muslim fundamentalists who literally believe the prophet’s commandment that all those who reject his revelation are “at war” with him and therefore deserve death.
Yet, in other posts, you have railed against “the Zionists”. Those “Zionists” you have such disdain for are among the only other folks in the whole world fighting against murderous Islamism at our side.
You can’t have it both ways.
It is amusing that we are going on about ‘women pastors’ without reflecting on the fact that we continue the cultic practice of Rome with a ‘pastor’ who is a re-badged priest. We fail to practice the priesthood of all believers, we fail to practice (and I mean really practice) the plurality of overseers, we fail to practice the mutuality of ‘one has a prophesy, one has a psalm’ that Paul extols. We have converted the church to a business organisation with a CEO and a room full of passive spectators and fail to demonstrate to the world our love for each other in sacrificial commitment to our Lord and to each other.
Oh my yes.
Let’s quote from the book of
Cyprian Circa 250
Or from Tertullian Circa 207 who is credited with adding the necessity of the “sign of the cross” to our prayers.
While we are at it could we please also look into what Luther and John Chrystondom thought… being the good anti semites that they were.
And since we are being inclusive we may as well double check 2 Opinions, Hessitations, and the Book of Hezekiah to ensure we have examined things from all sides.
Or…. And this is just a thought… I’m spit balling here …. We could look at Paul’s letter to Timothy while he was trying to turn the church in Ephesus around and examine the asterisk that appears in every one of your Bibles…. That I’m guessing you never took the time to observe before.
Yup… get out your Scofield, your NIV or other version of choice and check the chapter on qualifications for Elders, Deacons and Deasonesses….and where your English Translation has been tainted they have been kind enough to place an Asterisk and add a footnote.
Yup. Once you see it you can miss it… and yup that is your Bible… not one from the JW but a good Baptist translation.
Then go to your Bible Dictionary and learn that Elders lead the church and that Deacons (pastors) and women deacons (pastors) are servants who shepherd the flock of God under the authority of the elders.
Shocker! Maybe we don’t need the extra biblical sources after all
It is tremendously tragic and sad. The church may not be the only institution that eats its’ own, but it’s a leading expert in doing so. The world is marching as fast as it can towards Fascism, and the church is becoming dogma without ears to listen or arms to hold.
Had I been at convention, my only goal with Rick Warren would have been to hug him, and cry alongside him. Such hard shelled and stiff necked people to critique a man who is well acquainted with tragedy. I have never met Rick Warren, but I grieve for the loss of his son and the deep pain it has caused. He is a man who has done exceptionally good things for Christian and secular culture.
Some here will understand about what I am about to share. We’ve been there for various reasons. And the floors of our homes are replete with DNA from the thousands of tears we have cried in darkness, muttering the words, “I tried……..I tried!” And yet, God answers, even when today’s church does not. God remembers, when church institutions could care less.
Sam. My goodness. YES. The best 3 paragraphs I’ve read in a long time. God bless you and all of yours, my man.
Sam Knight,
By your standard… we are never, ever to critique anyone who’s suffered tragedy? I assume we were/are all obligated to vote for Biden, because he lost his wife and daughter in a terrible wreck?
We know nothing of the behind-the-scenes family life of Pastor Rock (Star) Warren. Maybe his son’s fatal mental illness was unavoidable. Maybe, like so many pastors far smaller than he is, his vocation went from calling to idol, and he neglected his family in favor of his work and public image.
In any event, I judge people based on their words, deeds, and actions before Scripture, not “sympathy points”. Pastor Warren gets my condolences for his terrible loss, but not my vote of approval as a worldwide ecclesiastical authority figure.