In what was touted by Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church as “a historic night,” the church on Thursday ordained its first women pastors.
“Yesterday was a historic night for Saddleback Church in many ways!” the church, which has 15 campuses and a weekly attendance of more than 23,000, announced on Facebook. “We ordained our first three women pastors, Liz Puffer, Cynthia Petty, and Katie Edwards!”
Saddleback is a member of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), the largest Protestant denomination in the country, which officially opposes women’s ordination. The Roys Report reached out to the SBC for comment, but did not immediately hear back.
In an interview with Live Good, newly appointed pastor, Cynthia Petty, said Pastor Warren first informed her of her pending ordination in November.
“He explained that he and the elders had been discussing for many months the possibility to ordain women as Pastors at Saddleback Church,” Petty explained. “He told me that the elders unanimously voted to appoint me one of the first three women pastors at Saddleback Church! . . . He affirmed my leadership and my calling to ministry, and it was a conversation I will not forget.”
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Petty added that she has always served in churches where women could lead “under the authority of a male pastor.” She called Warren’s change in philosophy for women in ministry “revolutionary.”
“I was honored and felt extremely humbled,” she added. “And the thing I believe meant the most to me was how this would be groundbreaking for all the younger women ministers on staff who really did have the desire or dream to be a pastor one day!”
All three newly appointed Saddleback pastors have been serving in ministry at the church for more than 20 years.
Petty has been serving in children’s ministry at Saddleback since 1998, and according to her LinkedIn page, was educated at Golden Gate Seminary.
Puffer has been serving in pastoral care at Saddleback since 1994 and was educated at Rockbridge Seminary, according to her LinkedIn page.
Katie Edwards has been serving in youth ministry at Saddleback since the late nineties.
As Edwards explains in a message she gave at Saddleback in 2019, she has been attending Saddleback since she was 13 years old and “met Jesus” as a 14-year-old at a Saddleback high school summer camp.
Edwards also is the author of “The Skinny on Discipleship” and a contributor to the Download Youth Ministry Podcast.
Also on Thursday, Saddleback appointed Pastor Johhny Baker as the new global leader of Celebrate Recovery.
Baker is the son of John Baker, the founder of Celebrate Recovery, who died unexpectedly in February. (Baker’s cause of death has not been made public.)
In a Facebook post, Johnny said, “I am so honored to follow in my dad’s footsteps and I’m committed to carrying the legacy of Celebrate Recovery forward. I miss my dad every day and I wish he could have been there with me. But I know he is in the great cloud of witnesses and that this is something we planned on, something he wanted, he was just supposed to be here with me.”
Saddleback also commissioned three elders this week: Anthony Miller, Jeremiah Goley, and Jason Williams.
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61 Responses
The inspired word of God says that women shouldn’t preach but along comes a mere man and changes God’s spoken word. It’s not a historic night, it’s a catastrophic night. Woman has upsurped man whom is the head. They are sleep walking themselves into Hell, along with all those that were in agreement with RW. Eve listened to Satan and look where it got her.
Women must see to the good upbringing of their children, cooking nutritious meals, cleaning house, weeding the lawn, instead of spending hours in the study arranging sermons, which will not be Holy Spirit inspired.
It’s all so sad when i think of how Christ sacrificed Himself and pastor’s are still so disobedient.
Not only does this go against Scripture, but we could really use more strong male leadership in the church in my opinion this is counterproductive.
Seems like they had valuable roles serving without having to be “pastors”. I think the focus for women in church should be fair recognition and pay. Not ordination to pastoral headship.
Read Judges 4:4 about Deborah I guess God was wrong for putting her in the position of Judge, Pastor, Shepherd, Leader over Israel. Give me scripture that supports what your saying.
David Applewhite please note that Deborah was a JUDGE NOT A RABBI, She did not stand in the synagoue and preach…..women could go to synagoue but not preach.
Deborah was a judge, not a priest. The example does not support the proposal.
“Suppose I had a cat named Lucy. Suppose I told you that because Lucy is a cat and because cats are animals and because dogs are animals, therefore Lucy is a dog. I’m not sure you would find that convincing because, while all cats are animals, not all animals are cats. My argument is built upon a significant category error. Likewise, it is not true to say that because Deborah was a prophet and prophets are leaders, therefore women can be any type of leader including the preaching pastor of a church. The difference between a prophet and the preaching pastor of a church may well be as profound as the difference between a cat and a dog. Therefore the argument simply isn’t relevant or compelling.”
I notice from reading the comments here that most people focus strictly on the absolute literal letter of the Word.
Even Paul states that “the letter kills, but the spirit gives life”.
He was NOT contrasting the Old Testament to the new, when he wrote this. How do I know? There was NO New Testament when he wrote it.
So then, what is “the spirit “ of which he speaks? Ah, but that is the question. Could there be more to what is in front of our faces when we read the Word? Possibly much much more?
What does the Lord say?
Read John 5:39-40
39 “Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which TESTIFY OF ME. (emphasis added)
40 And ye will not come to Me, that ye may have life”.
Verse 39 seems to indicate that the literal focus on what people did or didn’t do thousands of years ago does not contain life.
But verse 40 gives us the solution.
Be “willing” to come to the Lord.
Read John 13:34 the Lord speaking to his disciples prior to his death:
“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another “
It’s not complicated. Be willing to come to the Lord, and the Lord ONLY. Religion does not have the answer.
The Lord said “ALL power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth”. Matthew 28:18
ONLY the Lord has the power.
And when He spoke these words just before sending His disciples into the world, the words of Paul that some people in religion believe so fervently, were not yet even written.
.02c
Help me please. Is this is comedian joke or is it being honest.
Honestly, it shouldn’t surprise anyone that knows the background of Saddleback, it’s apostate. IN fact Rick Warrens “purpose driven church” is the model of church you see today falling apart and laden with sinful, unregenerate pastors.
In the not so distant future you will most likely see the headline “Saddleback Church ordains 3 homosexual pastors”.
That’s so true.
Look at what has happened to the Episcopal Church in the USA (TEC).
Years ago, they were a Gospel proclaiming church. Now, they are apostate. How did it begin? Lots of debate about that, but one thing is sure: they ordained and continue to ordain women to the priesthood and diaconate (deacons).
As the old saying goes: God doesn’t bless sin.
Now they have sodomites and lesbians as priests and bishops.
The evangelical world should beware. Ordaining women to the ministry is sin. It is not God’s plan. It will only lead to more sin. Marg Mowczko and other false teachers of that ilk can twist the Scriptures all they want to but the plain truth of the Bible is clear: women should not be in ordained ministry.
Maybe study the Bible a bit more carefully? The way that Jesus treated women was revolutionary in first century Israel. Look at the way Mary was allowed to sit at Jesus’s feet. This was something only men could do till then…she was saying that she was a student of the Rabbi! This was simply scandalous at that time. Jesus praised her and said she had chosen the only thing that ultimately matters. Pricilla was a teacher and leader in the early church. Junia was an apostle. Women were allowed to prophesy and pray in church gatherings. Paul instructed the unlearned women (who were so because up till then society and religious leaders would not allow them to learn Torah) to learn from their husbands at home. The radical nature of this statement is lost on modern ears. The reality is, women were given great freedom and were allowed to be fully functioning disciples of Jesus, and even leaders in the early church. What you are espousing bears little to no resemblance to anything Jesus, Paul or the early church would recognize as authentic NT belief and practice as it relates to women.
Jewish women in Jesus’s time were allowed to worship in synagogues with men, so Mary sitting at Jesus’s feet was quite accepted. I don’t know why you would ever think that this was scandalous!
And yes Pricilla was a teacher not a preacher/apostle!
Regardind Jinia there is a dispute about her gender; Paul would never have accepted IT as an apostle.
The whole discussion is about women being preachers, not about prophsying, teaching, etc.
I think i stuck to the topic..
Amen! And let’s not forget that Priscilla was involved in teaching Apollos. Many scholars believe that the reason Paul and Luke always list Priscilla’s name before that of her husband Aquila (which was unheard of in the patriarchal Roman culture) was because she took the lead role in their ministry. A thorough study of the early church and Church Fathers shows that women held all sorts of ministry positions.
I believe Abigail Grossberg explains it clearly and distinctly
Disagreeing with women pastors is one thing. But, to relegate them to cooking, cleaning, and weeding lawn, is equally unbiblical. Please tell me this is some type of non-satire, satire-attempted post?
What bible are you reading mam the Prophetess Deborah was the Pastor Leader or judge over Israel. She was their shepherd God ( HolyGhost Inspired)picked her, she also took care of her household while leading Israel. Judges 4th chapter 4 verse. In the book of Acts 18:26 Priscilla and her Husband Aquila Paul appointed by the Holy Ghost that they become colabourers in the gospel. That means Pricillia knew and preaced Christ to the point of risking her life. Phillips daughters were Prophetess to prophesy means to proclaim the Word or preach the word. Give me scripture to support what your saying.
Pastor David Applewhite
David Applewhite….see my response further up that D was a judge not a pastor because women were not allowed to preach in the synagogue. Did Pricilla stand up amongst the crowd like Paul and the other apostles and preach the gosple??? How do you know these things that are not in the goisple.Regards Phillips two daughters….to prophesy does not mean to preach. Pastorship and prophesying are two different topics. I can see that you agree with RW that women can preach but you are wrong and you are not preaching the word of God. Shame on you.
My wife doesn’t have a lawn. I think you may have misunderstood, but just know it isn’t as clear cut as you make out.
I find it curious that so many people believe the right answer to ordaining women is finally being discovered 2,000 years after the Lord walked the earth. That somehow the apostles and the earliest Christians got this wrong. That somehow all of the earliest church writers missed the supposed official church roles of Phoebe, Priscilla, Philip’s daughters, and so many more.
Instead, we see the earliest church writers take Paul at face value – these disciples of Christ taught by the apostles and those taught by those disciples – many of whom lived in the same culture as Jesus and the apostles…spoke the same Greek – we see these early church writers agree with a plain and straightforward reading of the epistles of Peter and Paul…an understanding supported by Jesus’s example of sending out men, not women, to declare the Gospel of the Kingdom. Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Lactantius, Tertullian, Cyprian, and the Apostolic Constitutions all agreed that, while equal in salvation and value, women were prohibited by God to take authority over men in the church – especially with regard to teaching and baptizing.
Isn’t it arrogant to think that somehow today we finally know Paul’s and Peter’s and Jesus’s real intentions – unlike those foolish primitive Christians who just took Jesus and His apostles at their words?
It would be like thinking that by rereading letters my to my great-great aunts I know better than they what my their mother meant or believed about the things she wrote to them about. We all see how arrogant and ridiculous that would be – but, when it comes to the most important beliefs any of us hold, we’ll go with what WE think in spite of what the apostles taught, Jesus modeled, and the earliest Christians testified to.
Well said!
You are right Abigail.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
The Bible is clear that women cannot preach to men or take authority over men. They can an should teach women and children but not men. This church and many others I believe are in error and going against God’s word. There was not one woman elder in the word of God and not one Apostle.
Every instruction about pastors / leaders and teachers are geared towards men.
But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 1 Corinthians 11:3…. So these woman are subjected to their husband yet they lead other womans husband… That doesnt make sense.
Woman can sing, prophesy, pray, but not teach men…
There is a difference between woman being equally important, having super important roles, but our roles are different…
2 Timothy 4:3 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
That being said, some good Christians I know believe woman can preach to men. Hey I really dont understand it, to me the word is very clear… They will say its not an OR take authority but an AND take authority, but that is not whats written. It’s not me to judge, hey I might be wrong… Maybe that is not what’s meant. Jesus did tones for woman but never did he appoint one as an apostle and never was one appointed as an elder. And a pastor is an elder.
They can ordain all they want but the God of our universe does not ordain women to be over men in spiritual leadership, or or any other part of society. You will not find any ordained women in the Bible. This is more apostasy in these last days churches of abominations. This is more falling away from the Truth!
The Devil has control and they are deceived. Jesus said there would be great deception in these last days!
Celebrate Recovery is a bandaid. True deliverance comes from casting out demons like Jesus said to do in Mark chapter 16. But most churches refuse to obey God’s Word. They would rather celebrate recovery which does not last, than celebrate King Jesus in obedience!
.
“Leaving the next day, we went on to Caesarea and stayed at the home of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.” Acts 21:8-9
Since the statement about the spiritual gift of prophecy being conferred on four women is presented without comment, I take it that they were genuinely prophets. I’m not clear at all what the distinction is between speaking as a prophet and speaking as an ordained person. Perhaps someone here has an understanding?
One of the glaring differences between Greek and Hebrew is in the example of the word prophesy.
In Greek it means to foretell the future, and has its origin in the Oracles of Delphi.
However, in Hebrew the word for prophet is navi. A Navi was a messenger of the king or governor who, in the days before Twitter, carried the proclamations to the people. As representatives of the king they were to be treated as if they were the king himself. They delivered the word of the king.
When Peter stood up on the day of Pentecost, and declared that your daughters would prophesy, he may have been speaking in Aramaic which was translated into Greek. But he was quoting Joel who was speaking in Hebrew.
Today our daughters are delivering the Word of the King. And we must listen to them as if we were hearingthe King Himself.
Cheryel,
You are obfuscating the issue talking about Greek and Hebrew and back to Aramaic. You are being disingenuous when you say that prophesy in Greek only means foretelling the future. That is not even the main sense of the word. Can you read Greek or are you quoting from what you have read about Greek. Do not pretend to know the language unless you really do know it.
“Today our daughters are delivering the Word of the King. And we must listen to them ..” That is nonsense.
*drily* The first person to proclaim the Resurrection to the disciples was a woman, Mary Magdalene. I’m thinking God could have fixed it so that a man did it, but He didn’t. It’s worth thinking about.
It would be nice if we could get Julie Roys view on this.
I explain my view in detail in my book, “Redeeming the Feminine Soul.” I’m not going to try and fit it into a comment thread. It’s nuanced and doesn’t fit neatly in either camp’s box.
Good for you for pointing to an elaborative source.
Well done, Saddleback. Congratulations and blessings to those who have been ordained, and will serve to the praise of God’s glory. May the church be blessed as it is a blessing.
Southern Baptist Convention better reject their ongoing membership,otherwise SBC is hypocritical since some churches have already been removed. This yet one more reason to also reject Ric Warren among all his other problems. I will not support Christian radio if they still carry his program, and I have thrown away his books from a few years ago.
Another example: Baptist General Conference changed their denomination name to Converge and now calls some women leaders as Pastor. I have rejected two formerly General conference churches.
Thrilled to see women pastors. I don’t see ordination of either men or women in Scripture but those who are called by the church to lead as their gifting as perceived by the church. The Southern Baptist position has recently changed as the 2000 Baptist Message shows. The 1963 Baptist Message leaves such decisions up to the local church and is therefore open to women in ministry. Those who oppose women in leadership should check out people like Marg Mowszco who exegete the various passages cited by comments above and come to different conclusions while maintaining the supremacy and inerrancy of Scripture.
Thanks Grainne, I just posted this new article after seeing the online hoo-hah about the ordination of these three women pastors. https://margmowczko.com/women-pastors-new-testament/
There is a valid biblical case for female pastors.
There is certain information I didn’t see mentioned regarding any changes of the roles of the three women pastors. A few questions…
1. Have the specific pastoral roles been announced for each of the three women (not hinted at, implied at or for others to read into as to what they will do, but officially announced)? If so, what are those specific pastoral roles?
2. Now that the three women have been officially announced as pastors, what new responsibilities will they have in their roles that is different from before?
3. If, by any chance, there is no change in the roles of the three women, then why did Saddleback Church decide to officially call them pastors?
4. Are the three women pastors in a position of both teaching and having authority over men within Saddleback church (not one or the other, but both)?
I think these are relevant questions when dealing with this subject in light of 1 Timothy 2:12 – 3:13.
Will these women pastors be paid the same amount as their male coworkers?
It is always my thought that man should be the head of his family as well as being the senior pastor for the church. That said, I have nothing against ordination of women as pastors especially when the circumstances needed them to be. We live by grace, not by law nor the rule. This is not about salvation, but the organization of the church. What kind of circumstances? When men perhaps are not functioning as men as in many families. Perhaps the death of the husband or an accident forces a wife to take the role of the head. There are many other circumstances that we can think of. Being a pastor is a high calling and the job and responsibility is tough especially for a wife and a mother. It is not an ideal situation, but needed to be done. That said, i believe whichever camps we happen to be, we have our own reasons and perhaps respect each other positions and disagree agreeably. In all things however need to be remembered, we all do this to glorify our God despite our differences.
Don’t get caught up in the title “Pastor” in the way some use the word. Pay more attention to what role will these women serve?
The main question I would ask is will they serve in positions of FINAL AUTHORITY OVER MEN?
That means will they be Elders that governs the Church? Will they have authority over the Male personnel in the Church?
If a woman is a “Pastor” of Women’s Ministries, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over that. If she was Pastor over the Children’s Ministries, that wouldn’t faze me either. And if she was even the Pastor of Christian Education, I wouldn’t lose my mind about that either.
But if she was part of the governing Elder Board, then I would have a problem with it, as that would violate the Scripture.
I hope and pray that in a few years, the truth regarding women and leadership in the Ekklessia will be made clear based on a better understanding of scripture and the relevant passages… I think we would all be surprised and feel a bit betrayed when we realize how the English translators have subtly added to and changed meanings from the original Greek to make the Bible seem “Clear” regarding women… It’s really heartbreaking how this has been perpetuated…
the Greek word “authentein” in 1 Tim 2:12 (used only this 1x in the NT) does not mean what we think it means… since the 1500s, it has been commonly translated as a general “authority”, but it has a very ugly and violent past… it’s connected to Paul’s list of evil in 1 Tim 1:9-10… from 5th century BCE until the 1st century CE, “authentes” were often murderers that initiated and were involved in pre-meditated killing… sometimes in the context of child sacrifice, sometimes in killing parents, sometimes their own suicide… there was a connection to ritual human sacrifice to the fertility gods & goddesses (Magna mater types in Ephesus/Asia minor)… the Athenian court literally held their homicide trials outside (Areopagus on Hill of Ares) in this era, so the judges and victims would not have to be under the same roof as the “authentes”… this meaning was still part of the picture in Paul’s era, but about 100AD, the meaning shifted more toward an absolute and/or domineering authority (Latin Vulgate 4th century), then over the next millenial by the time of Erasmus translation, it had shifted to a general authority…
Did you read the Greek in it’s context and do you have the ability to read 1 Timothy in it’s entirety in Greek without relying on software? Did you come up with this information your self and what is your source. Did you consult experts who have lived a lifetime studying the original languages?
So thankful Rick Warren has fixed what the church failed to do for 2,000 years. Must have been all that Patriarchy stuff… and those pesky Biblical texts and Jesus picking twelve male Apostles. But the Savior was a man of his times. Rick is a man of our times, and we know the times are moving in a Godward direction more and more every day! It is all around us! Such a good fellow! Lead on, Rick into a bright future.
The abolition of slavery is a relatively new development in society as well, and receives no direct support from scripture. Yet I don’t think any serious person would argue texts like “slaves submit to your masters” represent some sort of creation order that is pleasing to God.
I can’t put into words my personal deep happiness and joy at seeing these women receive their recognition.
I have witnessed hundreds of non believing men sinners give their lives to Jesus after a Holy Spirit inspired preaching by a female pastor. Praise God for this.
Yet at the same time, so called Christian ( men of the cloth ) treat this pastor shamefully, she is shunned and inwardly hurt deeply by their unloving self righteous criticism.
Christian men can ask themselves, if a female pastor spreads the gospel and saves a man from hell, who are you to judge a female who did this act?
Please think deeply about any hurtful replies.
We are all one in Christ Jesus.
There do seem to be similarities between your example, and the conflict Jesus had with the leaders of His day regarding the Sabbath. We need to live by the Spirit, and not the letter, while at the same time, keeping true to the gospel preached by the apostles. I think the foundational question is what exactly is the gospel? At a certain point, have we exchanged the gospel for another form of legalism?
“I can’t put into words my personal deep happiness and joy at seeing these women receive their recognition.”
It isn’t about our “deep happiness” or women “receiving their recognition” it’s about obeying what God has said!
“I have witnessed hundreds of non believing men sinners give their lives to Jesus after a Holy Spirit inspired preaching by a female pastor. Praise God for this.”
Only God knows if “hundreds of non believing men” gave their life to Christ but regardless, God hasn’t said the end justifies the means, that’s humanism and that’s a stench in the nostrils of God.
“Yet at the same time, so called Christian ( men of the cloth ) treat this pastor shamefully, she is shunned and inwardly hurt deeply by their unloving self righteous criticism.”
This is a straw-man, good for garnishing emotions, but void of any real substance.
“Christian men can ask themselves, if a female pastor spreads the gospel and saves a man from hell, who are you to judge a female who did this act?”
Spreading the gospel and pastoring a church are two entirely different things, and I’m not judging this, God has already spoken on the matter. Your issue is with God, not the people obeying what He said.
“Please think deeply about any hurtful replies.”
I have thought deeply on it – Jesus said go and teach “ALL things, whatsoever I’ve told you”. Jesus was an ALL things man and He taught us women are not pastors, you and Jesus would have been at odds with each other so tell me, who should I listen to, you, or God that’s already settled this? Are we to believe you are wiser, more spiritual than God?
Brian Fox
Then you must know a different Jesus. Show me where Jesus taught us women are not pastors.
Again, if a woman pastor brings a man to be born again (and hundreds others) as well. I should know because I was one of them, who are you to condemn me or the female pastor who showed me the way?
You have a dilemma.
Are we to believe you are wiser, more spiritual than God ?
“Then you must know a different Jesus.”
No, just the One revealed “as it is written” not the Jesus of my own imagination that bends and contradicts what He has already said.
“Show me where Jesus taught us women are not pastors.”
You do understand the apostles spoke the authoritative words of Jesus Christ, don’t you? Jesus gave them authority here on earth (Mat. 18:18;, 1 Jn 4:5-6;2 Tim.3;16-17;2 Peter 1;19-21). That means what the apostles have given us in scripture are the very words of God Himself! So, when Paul outlined the biblical pattern for the New Testament Church, (1 Tim. 3:15) I don’t need to listen to someone who claims something is blessed by God when in fact it contradicts Him, because the words Paul wrote ARE the Words from Christ the Lord (1 Cor. 9-16).
“Again, if a woman pastor brings a man to be born again (and hundreds others) as well. I should know because I was one of them, who are you to condemn me or the female pastor who showed me the way?”
Again, your example is dishonest. Nowhere have I claimed a woman cannot “bring a man to be born again”. I said that they are in sin and in rebellion to Him (as are you because you defend it) because He said, through his Apostle Paul, “I suffer not a woman to teach…nor to usurp authority over the man” ( Tim. 2:11-1).
“Are we to believe you are wiser, more spiritual than God ?”
Not at all, but, I’m not the one contradicting Him, am I? The minute you put your emotions and feelings over the scripture, the “wiser more spiritual” mantle became yours, so be honest and own it.
It says their elders ordained these pastors. In the NT elder and pastor are interchangeable roles. So, are these women now part of the eldership?
Brian Fox
It is unacceptable for you to label me dishonest. It is also unacceptable for you to dismiss my experience as a straw man witnessing men give their lives to God from a woman pastor, while “men of the cloth” like you stand at the back of the church shouting heresy and other insults as you have done here again when men are giving their lives to Christ in circumstances that neither you nor I can understand.
Leave it to God. He knows why.
Your dilemma is that I was lead to God/born again under a female pastor and there is nothing that you and your unkind, unloving remarks can do about that. I don’t know why God lead me to her church at a terrible time in my life, but I am grateful for it and now I will lead my own Church, while angels in heaven rejoice.
When I become a pastor which is where I am headed (and yes I am male) I will run my congregation on Matthew 22 v37-40 the greatest commandment and I will leave the theological scuffles about Deborah, Priscilla and Aquila, and Timothy’s battle to control the uttering of the uneducated women in his church to you “men of the cloth”,
while I as a new male pastor will seek to carry out Mark 16 v 15-18
I will be laser focused on finishing my race, and you can stand at the back and shout if you wish.
I will not engage with you further – thanks but no thanks.
The responsibility of PREACHING of the Word of God is given by the Spirit of God to men.
The responsibility of TEACHING the Word of God is given by the Spirit of God to Men AND women.
Scripture is absolutely clear on the issue. 1 Timothy 2:9-3:7 spells it out for anyone who doesn’t “get” it. The tired old arguments of women “pastors” in the Bible or equating women in various positions which weren’t typical, but NOT pastors is not the same. In every case, sadly taking scripture out of context. Priscilla and Aquilla were husband and wife team ministering together. There is no indication that they were or were not “pastors.” Deborah was a judge, Huldah was a prophetess, neither a pastor (which didn’t come around until the New Testament period, anyway). What happened to Miriam when she tried to usurp Moses’ authority, since some like to use Deborah as an example? Philip’s daughters were indeed “prophetesses” but that simply means that they proclaimed the word of God. More simply, they were evangelists like their father, not “pastors.” Mary, Martha or other women who were close to Jesus were not “pastors” either. Do women have roles in the church? Absolutely! Titus 2:3-5 explicitly tells them to teach other women to live godly lives. They are also to teach their children, specifically as Timothy’s mother and grandmother did. Adding to or taking away from scripture to fit your own agenda is a dangerous place to be.
Hmmm? FeMale pastors???
In the Bible, Can anyone name?
One of **His FeMale Disciples** who took the “Title” pastor?
Or shepherd? Or poimen? Or leader? Or reverend?
NOPE…
——-
Hmmm? Male pastors???
In the Bible, Can anyone name?
One of **His Male Disciples** who took the “Title” pastor?
Or shepherd? Or poimen? Or leader? Or reverend?
NOPE…
——-
Hasn’t anyone ever wondered? Why? In the Bible?
NOT one of **His Disciples** Male or FeMale…
Ever took the “Title” pastor?
Or shepherd? Or poimen? Or leader? Or reverend?
——-
Jer 50:6 KJV
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**THEIR shepherds**
have caused them to *go astray,*
Notice, it says, **THEIR shepherds.**
1 Pet 2:25 KJV
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to
the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Note Julie Roys Heading: “defying SBC position”. This is the problem. This move by Saddleback is in defiance of the Word of God. Study the issue Christians. Spiritual apathy and laziness are the reasons we’re in this mess.
Southern Baptist churches are extremely autonomous, but their larger conference membership and outreach is based on some agreed upon common positions. The more honest approach would have been to drop out of the Southern Baptist Conference, become independent, then ordain the women.
I’ve never understood why pastors and churches are determined to be part of a larger group or denomination while rebelling against their fundamental working beliefs. You see this everywhere: Catholic clerics blessing same sex marriages; Methodists opposing missions; etc. To me, it shows a fundamental lack of integrity.
Saddleback can always rejoin the SB Convention if and when they change their position.
Great point Tom. They should have left the SBC first instead of doing an end-run, effectively garnering support by appealing to emotions. It’s like the lesbian who sued Fuller for their sexual ethic, fully aware of their position before enrolling as a student. Both examples are completely disingenuous — https://decisionmagazine.com/fuller-seminary-sued-allegedly-expelling-lesbian-same-sex-marriage/
Julie-
I just read your book “Redeeming the Feminine Soul.” I am still crawling out of the dark spiritual place of having had hyper-complementarian forced on me for 20 years by my pastor and leaders. I’m thankful God opened my eyes and I was able to walk away. I left the day my pastor told me, “You have no spiritual authority to tell your husband what God says.” That was 3.5 years ago.
Thank you for what you wrote. I appreciate your voice and the courage that goes along with it. Your words have ministered to me.
I read the comment section of these Christian boards, and while considering myself a Christian (if there is such a term)…I’m absolutely disgusted…DISGUSTED…by the attitudes espoused by “Christians,” especially those of the evangelical flavor. We whizz scripture verses all over each other, and think it’s just wonderful!
2 things. Love God. Love your neighbor. THAT’S IT. Btw…who is your neighbor?? Everyone. Especially the one you cannot stand and the one who cannot stand you.
These are pharisee’icle (sorry for the churchy term, to those quietly lurking in the background) poo-slinging contests…and we get NOWHERE with it. To the person reading this who’s on the fence about whether to believe or not to believe…I’M SORRY.
TERRIBLE example we provide. And for the record…stay the hek away from churches like Driscoll’s. It’s power and manipulation…with force.
Lord forgive me, a sinner…
The case for women’s ordination builds from out-of-historical-context examples (e.g. Deborah performed a civic role, not a clerical role), misapplied verses such as Galatians 3:28, faulty word-studies (e.g., how is “diaconos” used in certain texts, or “apostolos”), or equating gift with role (e.g., if a woman was a prophetess that must mean she could be an elder). Then the topic is deliberately emotionalized with examples of churches in history that have mistreated women. In other words, I see a lot of this coming back to the hermeneutics one uses. I’m 61 years old, and I have never read a pro-female-ordination case that I felt used trustworthy hermeneutics.
I also feel it’s a failure of integrity for Saddleback to remain in the SBC, regardless of what one’s opinion on this particular subject might be. Just bid each other well-wishes, and separate. It’s as if an Assembly of God church preached that tongues aren’t for today, and there’s no baptism of the Holy Spirit. You aren’t AOG then.
Jack,
Seems to be a reasonable point….
This just cracks me up – after waving around the Bible as something or another, Warren tosses the text to the floor.
Too bad he cannot simply be honest – the so called “Bible” is just a man-made set of documents – and we need to look to God in Christ for guidance.
Hilarious!
Women pastors wouldn’t be an issue if it was historically allowed. Seeing it’s been the Church’s position to not have women pastor through out history the change in the last 50 years has been ahistorical. The reason for not allowing women pastors has been because women aren’t to be head over man in leadership. Satan fooled Eve and that led to the downfall of Adam.