Jamie Aten has spent years trying to help his fellow evangelicals deal with disasters.
In the past, when he wrote about hurricanes, floods and tornadoes — or even his personal battle with cancer — Aten’s work has been well received.
When Aten, executive director of the Humanitarian Disaster Institute at Wheaton College, began to urge his fellow evangelicals to get vaccinated, however, things got ugly.
“How’s your Monday going?” he tweeted on April 27. “Mine started with having to file a police report in response to the increasing number of threats I’m getting for encouraging white evangelicals to get vaccinated against COVID-19.”
How's your Monday going? Mine started with having to file a police report in response to the increasing number of threats I'm getting for encouraging white evangelicals to get vaccinated against COVID-19.
— Jamie Aten (@drjamieaten) April 26, 2021
Aten, who teaches at the evangelical flagship Wheaton College, said he’d filed a report with the sheriff’s office in DuPage County, Illinois, where he lives, after getting an email claiming his work on vaccines was “punishable by death.” The email was part of a pattern of emails and calls from people angry about Aten’s work helping Christian groups and churches respond to the COVID-19 vaccine. The threats intensified after he spoke to The New York Times about the need for evangelicals to be vaccinated.
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One threat warned that encouraging white evangelicals to get vaccines would “eventually lead to the murdering of all mankind.”
“If I knew my stuff,” the email went on, “I would know not to encourage people to get vaccinated because that’s what’s going to take down humanity more,” Aten said.
White evangelicals are the religious group most hesitant to get COVID-19 vaccines, with just over half (54%) saying they are likely to get vaccinated, according to Pew Research. Faith leaders can play a key role in helping the United States reach “herd immunity,” a recent survey from the Public Religion Research Institute found. That’s especially true for white evangelicals, the survey found. And given the size of the evangelical population, getting them on board with vaccination is crucial.
“If we can’t get a significant number of white evangelicals to come around on this, the pandemic is going to last much longer than it needs to,” Aten told The New York Times.
Evangelical leaders who have been outspoken advocates of the vaccines haven’t always found a welcome audience. When well-known evangelical Franklin Graham, son of the late evangelist Billy Graham, posted on Facebook that Jesus would approve of the vaccine, a number of followers turned on him.
“I just lost all respect for you spreading such garbage as saying Jesus would have taken that vaccine, that is a devilish lie!” one wrote.
Aten fears that, like masks before them, vaccines have become another symbol of the culture wars. Which he finds ironic, given that the vaccines were developed during President Donald Trump’s administration.
“A year ago, masking was the new way to mark your tribalism — who you were, what you were for or against,” he said. “Now, the vaccine is becoming that for some people.”
Bob Smietana is a national reporter for Religion News Service.
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159 Responses
This professor has drunk the Kool-aid on every level it seems. Another “Christian” college to cross off the list of “Christian Colleges to Send Your Children.” Sad. He does have the PC verbiage down though.
Meg, can you be specific about how Jamie Aten is in error? If you wouldn’t mind, would you please share your sources of information, too?
What is with all the ego centered hate???
Agreed
You’re clearly the Kool-aid drinker on this thread, Meg. Sad.
This is an article about how this man is receiving death threats and this is the comment you felt the need to leave. That’s very revealing.
Your trolling skills suck.
Love to have about 54% of white evangelicals “get off the train” asap courtesy of Covid-19…
Our whole country would be so much better off without these anti-Christ religious ego worshipping idolaters
Since getting both shots I have been told I’m going to hell because it’s the mark of the beast and the nanotechnology will make me sterile and I will have bad things happen. To my fellow Christians. This is why the world thinks we’re nuts. Along with believing trump is sent by god. It’s been 14 months and the experts still can’t even agree on masks being good or bad and I’m going to listen to the wack job evangelicals?? And people have scripture to explain why taking a shot is bad?? The problem I see is he talks to white evangelicals. I guess no other color of evangelicals are available for the shot Really!!! But hey here is the best part. I now can send my thoughts to bill gates and he can’t figure out who sent it. My best is reminding him his haircut looks like his mommy cut it using a bowl. ???? it really makes him mad. The problem I see with modern day evangelicals. Your wound up to tight for your own good.
Have you heard the one about how it rewrites your DNA and turns you into a Nephilim?
Lol. Thanks for the laugh in what has been a pretty grim thread, HUG…
I wasn’t making that up.
There is a lot of Crazy out there.
The problem is some have been vaccinated with Trump and it has altered their spiritual DNA.
I’m just stunned.
I’m an evangelical and a microbiologist/molecular biologist/geneticist by training. Masks are one thing and vaccines quite another. Generally speaking, an evangelical crusade against COVID vaccines makes us appear to the world like Neanderthals, which in fact is what some have called us over this. It does a disservice to our calling as Christians to behave in such a primitive way. Then, to assault a fellow believer on top of the general anti-vax crusade is beyond plain stupid. While we’re all known for doing stupid things now and then, here’s one that’s beyond totally unnecessary, and damaging to our calling as stewards of humanity.
We are not required to worry about what the world thinks about us according to Scripture. We are to be separate from the world. We are not a part of this kingdom. We would be wise to take great caution about this vaccine.
So we shouldn’t be cautious about a virus, but we should be cautious about preventing it? This virus has been stealing, killing, and destroying on a massive scale. Here in California, the vaccine has helped minimize the virus to the point that churches are now completely free to worship without restriction. Judge by the fruit.
Sara – How can you not be worried what the world thinks of you? I’m suspect of the concept of being separate you mention.
My understanding (and hope) is that Christians would be known as a loving and caring people. Perhaps others see things differently, but my life experience (and I only claim to speak for myself) is that Christians who take the “Us vs. the world” attitude take that position because they are unwilling and/or unable to have any level of emotional engagement with people beyond the church parking lot.
Agreed!!!
We would be wise, Sarah, to take care to obey Jesus’ instruction to love our neighbor, and to do nothing that would bring them to harm including being the agent of spreading a virus to them.
Lea..The vaccine is NOT FDA approved. Many of us I believe feel numbers of deaths have been falsified so how can one trust anyone pushing for this vaccine. New drugs even Botox have to be tested rigorously for years before it is approved and made available to the public. Not sure why people are listening to the same people who said a 50 year proven therapeutic hydrochloride was ” dangerous” yet you are just fine to take a vaccine that has no testing and is now showing people that have been fully vaccinated are getting Covid and some have died…..
“Many of us I believe feel numbers of deaths have been falsified”
————————–
“believe” is a strong word. you must have hard evidence of this that is corroborated as a basis for your belief. can you cite the evidence?
since a dangerous vaccine has such high stakes, it’s sort of incumbent on you to present your case for the sake of your fellow human beings.
Leslie, please feel free to visit your local hospital and ask the doctors there if they are falsifying the numbers of deaths. Because that’s what it would require…doctors and nurses and hospital administrators and coronors in every town, in every state in the country, falsifying data.
If it’s so important to you, by all means have your local medical professionals verify your claims.
And the next time, instead of vaguely saying “some have died’, cite your statistics AND your source.
Leslie,
You FEEL the number of deaths has been falsified?
Feelings are not facts.
Please provide facts to back up your accusation.
Actually, we are required to be concerned about what the world thinks of us, at least in part. To give just one example from scripture, 1 Peter 2:12 tells us to “Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.” We’re also commanded to be the sort of people who live quiet lives and to engage others with gentleness and respect. Making death threats and being hyper-political and publicly cantankerous don’t seem in keeping with that.
Another relevant passage is 1 Timothy 3:7 which states that an elder must have a good reputation with outsiders. That sounds a lot like caring what the world thinks of us.
Both are excellent Scripture passages to keep in mind. Thanks, Gordon.
Thank you Gordon
Sara, I agree that we are not supposed to live to please the world, and we are called to be separate from the world; but we are still in the world and have to engage with the world; and more importantly, we are supposed to be a light in the world. Did not the Lord say that all men will know we are His disciples if we have love for one another? Whether we like it or not, the world is watching us, and the defining characteristic that is going to show the world whether we belong to Christ or not is whether or not we love one another.
To everyone reading this, we do not have to agree about whether people should get the vaccine, since that is a matter of opinion; and we do not have to agree about whether this professor should be advocating for people to get it. But we should all be in agreement that death threats against him are wrong, and together we should be grieved for him and pray for him. Would it not be a great show of unity and a testimony to the world if we all could love one another despite our differing opinions about such things as vaccines? Does not the word of God call us to this?
Thank you, Darren. I had to read through a lot of comments to get to a voice of reason. Thank you for this thoughtful observation.
Sarah, you and those of like mind are the reason the world calls us “Crazy Christians”. When, oh when will common sense, sound judgment, and wisdom going to return to the minds of those who call upon the name of Jesus? I believe the book of Proverbs says,” although you pound a fool on his head with the club over and over again, yet his stupidity will not depart from him “.
Sams yes yes yes. Oh and bill gates says hi. I hear him now that I got the shots.
Maybe the messaging should be “Nancy Pelosi doesn’t want you to take the vaccine.”
Haha…. Soooooo True. Sad but true
I don’t think we should be so quick to judge Sara, or her character. Like you all here, unless you know someone outside the Roys Report blog, we only have each others’ comments to go off of. There is a human being—ie image of God—behind each.
I am going to give Sara the benefit of the doubt and say she probably gets along okay with a variety of folks. She has a concern about what she sees. Like many of you.
On one hand, we live among people, we are to treat people well (“owe no one any debt except the debt of Love) and when it comes to the slice of things, in the end we answer first to Father God.
Basically,
Love your neighbor as yourself, Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.
S AKA SABRINA, when Sara says that this professor is lacking in discernment and should not be encouraging people to get the vaccine, is she giving him the benefit of a doubt? And how does she know that he is struggling with racism?
He shouldn’t be receiving death threats. Very sorry to hear such a thing.
However, he should not encourage the vaccine. He is lacking in discernment regarding this vaccine and does not view humans through the lens of Scripture. He is struggling with racism which is obvious when he labels those under his influence “white evangelicals”. He has divided humans into ethnic groups which isn’t Biblical and is assuming that criticism of this vaccine somehow relates to the color of ones skin. I live in a very diverse city and many are skeptical about the purposes of this vaccine. Mostly people of color to be quite frank!
He is also wrong to deny the possibility that this vaccine is being used for nefarious purposes such as population control. He has no proof it is not being used for nefarious purposes and no proof that it is safe.
“He has no proof it is not being used for nefarious purposes and no proof that it is safe.”
You have no proof that it is being used for nefarious purposes and no proof that it is not safe.
What we DO have proof of, however, is more deaths from COVID-19 in the United States than from World War II.
What we DO have proof of, is that vaccines have been effective in stopping past pandemics like smallpox, polio, and measles.
What we DO have proof of, is that already 140 million people in the United States have received at least one dose of the vaccine. If it’s as dangerous as you say, they should be dropping like flies. And they’re not.
“He has no proof of it not being used for nefarious purposes…”
Well yes, but it’s not possible to provide proof for a negative claim. I have no proof that my next door neighbor isn’t secretly planning to murder me, but in the absence of any evidence of such I can’t claim that he is and then say “you have no proof that he’s not” when confronted about the lack of positive evidence to support my claim. If I insist in doing so, it is not wrong to say that I’m paranoid.
Seems to be an awful lot of folks demanding others prove a negative lately.
He’s encouraging white evangelicals to get the vaccine because white evangelicals are the group who have been most hesitate to get the vaccine, according to surveys, as it says in the article. I’m sure he wants everyone to get the vaccine, but he’s targeting his comments to white evangelicals not because he’s being racist but because that’s the group that is most at odds with the message he’s trying to communicate.
He is struggling with racism which is obvious when he labels those under his influence “white evangelicals”.
***
What is racist about the term white evangelical? Are you implying that he, a white person, is biased against white people? Or maybe you meant that he is biased against evangelicals? And if so, does that make evangelicalism a race?
I work as a hospital chaplain and have visited many COVID patients of every age, ethnicity, religious persuasion, and overall level of health before being infected with this virus. Several were skeptical about its deadly potential and questioned their need for a vaccine until they were the ones who got sick. Not one remained doubtful about it after being hospitalized; some recovered well, some have lingering symptoms, and others died from it. I am appalled by the level of willful ignorance and rush to pass judgment by those least informed or qualified to declare the vaccine unnecessary. For the doubters, a week visiting Covid patients in ICU would quickly remove all questions of its necessity. The lack of Christlike empathy and understanding that getting the vaccine is a powerfully tangible way to love our neighbor, helps me see more clearly why those outside the so-called Christian church family have witnessed our blatant hypocrisy and want nothing to do with us. We bear the responsibility for failing Christ by failing to work for the common good and reflect his character to a deeply hurting world.
Thank u for ur clear response. I too have just recently battled covid, and all my white evangelical family saw how bad I was and have all booked their appointments. They all got scared when they saw me go through what I did. Over 3 weeks and I am nowhere close to 100%.
I am not afraid of this vaccine, that its evil. I will say it wasn’t tested as long as other vaccines, so that’s my only worry. But I don’t think there is an evil plan to control the population etc. We need to understand the signs of his soon return. Its not covid or a vaccine the problem. Its how we have allowed this to divide his people (sign of the end?), how we lack love for others and just care about our point of views. And I’m talking Christians here. There is just so much wrong and damage to the church of Christ that this pandemic has caused. This breaks Jesus’ heart.
If you want or don’t want the vaccine, its your choice. People have a right to share their thoughts without being attacked by their christian brother or sister. Everyone is responsible before God for thier own behavior. Just love one another, and let’s serve God how they believe is right
Exactamundo! That’s what I’m saying.
Given the bungling which he isn’t realistic about, and playing both the race and denomination cards, going so far as the following specifically, was incautious:
“If we can’t get a significant number of white evangelicals to come around on this, the pandemic is going to last much longer than it needs to,” Aten told The New York Times.
He is evidently setting the example to others as a package dealer. And I don’t think he can claim to know much about the pandemic. (BTW I love his surname!)
But at least the matter is relevant to his job. Franklin G should have just stayed out of it altogether: who is Franklin G?
Agreed. It has been disheartening to see the pandemic reveal how few Christians care unless it directly affects themselves. So often God holds up a mirror to the church, to show us our own sin, and instead we instantly point fingers at everyone out in the “world”, making up more and more bizarre stories about them to keep from dealing with how we ourselves have failed.
In this case, it couldn’t be more clear. Sacrificial love is the theme of Calvary and indeed of all the Christian faith.
My Saviour laid down his life for sinners and for strangers, those he radically called his neighbors.
I have been privileged to merely wear a mask, and reduce my freedom at stores and restaurants, in case I might protect one.
Thank you.
Amen, well said. We all need to be more Christlike as His word teaches. Lots of judging going on here. We need to let God be the judge. True it would be good for us to spend time with a covid patient. I have met a few, know some who recovered and know some who died. This is real and the Lord gave us a mind to use with common sense. He also created doctors, nurses and all who are involved in the health care field and sciences. He gave us the knowledge. We need to use those gifts wisely.
Reads comments.
*Breathes out a deep sigh*.
Types ???????????? “meh” emoji face 3x
And internally groans.
Wonders why we can’t have the reasonable middle ground on vaccines of…
If you don’t want it or want to wait,
THEN DO.
If you want to get it,
THEN DO.
If you think it’s the Covid vax is a good idea…
THAT’S OKAY.
If you want to be cautious…
THAT’S OKAY.
I prefer the cautious route. But if you got it, okay! Really really.
The primitive fear on both sides is frustrating. People who want to force vaccine passports. Bad idea.
People who send who death threats for it. Bad idea.
I would like to see the spirit of fear of that’s trying to get hold of this age gagged, bound and thrown in the Pit where it belongs. Get out in Jesus name, you spirit of fear.
For God said that He gave us a spirit of Love, power and a sound mind! Your People will walk in a spirit of Love, power and a sound mind!
Amen.
Anybody else tired of these paper labels we like to slap on people, like “white evangelical?” Oh, I get it’s handy for research purposes and us humans who love to stack people in tiny boxes, but really, God sees it 2 ways.
Those who are Sheep in His Fold.
People who know Jesus.
And to those He says,
“I never knew you,”
Since they rejected Him.
It is my desire.to see more unity between Christian believers.
If you hear His voice and have Holy Spirit inside you, you know who you are.
It starts with us, guys.
Forgive my exasperation, maybe you understand…
Thank you.
Death threats are so bizarre that they could not come from a genuine follower of Jesus. The white evangelical neo-Zealots are not Christian, but political right wing nationalist extremists
Stanley your my hero. Wait bill gates says wear a mask. I keep hearing his voice now that I got my shots. Pretty cool.
“Death threats are so bizarre that they could not come from a genuine follower of Jesus. ”
“No True Scotsman”, eh?
“The white evangelical neo-Zealots are not Christian, but political right wing nationalist extremists”
What do you think “Christian(TM)” without any modifiers has come to mean these days?
Ever since 8 out of 10 of them took the Mark of the Trump on forehead AND right hand?
I’m not sure the no true Scotsman fallacy applies here because being a Christian is not an immutable trait someone is born with and we have specific guidelines and descriptions of what a genuine Christian looks like in the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.
Amen and well said, S! I do understand your exasperation. Reasonable middle ground is something sorely lacking in today’s church and society. How easy is it to think for oneself and let others think for themselves on issues that are not Biblically or morally absolute? What’s really discouraging is the behavior of a few whose death-threats in the name of “the Kingdom” are quickly re-defining the term “white evangelical” to mean “white ultra right-wing whack-job conspiracy theorist”.
First of all, the so-called “vaccines” do not legally or medically meet the definition for “vaccines.” Also, they are not “approved” by the FDA, just allowed for emergency use. As Americans and Christians, why do you think you have the right to tell 54% of us what we should do just because it is your opinion? You obviously do not know anything about the failure of mRNA and it’s “experimental” use on you human guinea pigs. I work for a public school system, and we have donned the masks, washed hands and socially distanced. A lot of people have had the virus or had to quarantine due to contact with others that had the virus. Not one person has been deathly sick or has died. People die every year from influenza and pneumonia, but we don’t shut down the world. My Bible tells my that God did not give me a spirit of fear; therefore, if you want to be a living guinea pig, that is your prerogative, but what I do is none of your business. How many of you have actually looked at the medical opinions and the negative research by medical professionals that are warning about this gene therapy and the failure of mRNA and the harm it can potentially cause. Have any of you read the VAERS reports, and it’s a fact that adverse vaccine effects are very underreported? What about the deaths caused by this gene therapy, especially of the elderly, the menstrual bleeding and miscarriages of women. No, you don’t know anything about any of this because it isn’t reported by the mainstream media.
US deaths from COVID-19: 569,771
US deaths from COVID-19 vaccination: 0
Lea Honey. You got your numbers wrong. CDC website posted that the number of people that actually died FROM Covid-19 was 6% which would be around 34,000+. Your number reflects people that died WITH Covid-19 and their primary cause of death from something else like heart attack, strokes, car accidents, etc. The PCR test results were also false. It was cranked up to 40 cycles when it should have been set to 17 (which they changed after inaugeration) so it picked up colds which are coronavirus. Watch plandemicseries.com. Mr. Bill Gates believes in Eugenics and his father started Planned Parenthood. Listen to Christian Doctor Sherri Tenpenny. It takes 6 months to one or two years for severe side effects to come out. Did you know the vaccine contains aborted baby cells, monkey cells, cow cells, mouse cells, etc? This goes against God’s Word. Jesus does not believe in abortion nor wants us to put animals in our bodies. We are made in God’s image.
MM, my numbers come directly from the CDC website. Feel free to go check at covid.cdc.gov.
Can you please supply the link where the CDC posted that the number of people who died was only around 34,000? Because that would require doctors and hospitals and coroners all across the country to be falsifying medical records and death certificates, so certainly some verification of your claim is required.
Perhaps you should go by your local hospital and ask the doctors and medical professionals there if they are faking their numbers? It would be interesting to see if they will verify your claims.
LEA, I’m a truth seeker. I am telling you this out of love. I did lots and lots of research. Sorry you CANNOT trust non-Christian doctors or government or hospitals right now. They are lying to you. There is much evidence that Dr. Fauci and Bill Gates planned this in 2017. They both have patents registered for covid-19 years back. I know this is shocking. I was shocked. There is a link to CDC information in this article. https://nypost.com/2020/08/31/94-of-americans-who-died-from-covid-19-had-contributing-conditions/
This covid-19 so called “vaccine” is NOT a vaccine at all. According to Christian doctors, this covid-19 vaccine is designed to “maim” and kill people. It is a “bio-weapon” and China is involved. People dying and being maimed by the covid-19 shot…blood clots, heart attacks, strokes, organ failure, ALS, etc. MRNA is instructions to create spike proteins in your body that cannot be shut off. It will ultimately destroy your immune system. People who get the shot will have enhanced transmission and pass on stronger virus to unvacinated people. Here is a link to people with severe effects from the shot. It is strictly voluntary to report to VAERS database. So it reflects only “one percent” of actual cases. It is on the form you signed to get the shot. Look at it. Here is the link. I lost much sleep digesting this shocking information. https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data
MM, You did “lots of lots of research” on the internet? What about the “lots and lots of research” epidemiologists, virologists, doctors and public health officials did as part of their education and professional practice? You seem to think nothing of THEIR research, while pridefully glorifying your own.
The New York Post is a tabloid. It is not a credible source of information.
If you believe that Dr, Fauci and Bill Gates have patents registered for COVID-19, by all means perform a search of the patent records at patents.google.com and please post them here. If you don’t, it is fair for us to assume that those patents do not exist. Or did you not do your research about that?
As to your VAERS data, I wonder why you trust it when you say you don’t trust CDC data? Please note what VAERS is for:
“VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health problem, but is especially useful for detecting unusual or unexpected patterns of adverse event reporting that might indicate a possible safety problem with a vaccine. This way, VAERS can provide CDC and FDA with valuable information that additional work and evaluation is necessary to further assess a possible safety concern.”
If you consider yourself a truth-seeker, surely you would read the website’s own information about the purpose of their data and what it means. Did you not do your research about that either?
“I did lots and lots of Research” is a standard QAnon Buzzword phrase.
Thanks, HUG. I realized after I posted that MM’s self-description of being a “truth seeker” is also a QAnon signifier. I guess they’re unwilling to say outright “I’m a QAnon follower” and hope to fool people with the “truth seeker” phrase.
MM you are right!!! Lea do a better job with research!
Debra, you are free to post your research here for all to see. I posted my statistics and my sources. Please do the same.
Yes MM and Debra I agree and I’m going to the evangelical industrial complex website, specifically Copelands and learn the truth. Oh yeah he already blew away COVID while most likely spitting on his flock and he said we are allll healed. Yeahhhh. Wait!!! Bill gates just told me to only trust evangelicals because they are the most informed. Or of course tucker Carlson who said I should call the cops on parents making there kids where masks. See aren’t we such examples for the non Christians to follow.
LEA, The article has a link to the CDC website. By the way, CDC is funded and run by the pharmaceutical companies. Also, hospitals get up to $60,000 for a dead covid patient. By the time you find out the truth about the Covid-19 vaccine you took it will be too late. Seems like you don’t want to know the truth. Oh well. Seek evil and evil will come upon you. Proverbs 11:27 I’m tired of tossing pearls to swine. Good-bye.
If you distrust the CDC so much, MM it is very strange that you have used this thread to promote the official CDC data on VAERS.
Or did you not realize that the reports on the openvaers site you listed are simply CDC reports, just organized and displayed differently? It’s in the website FAQs. Did you take the time to read them?
Apparently this is yet another gap in that “research” on which you have spent “lots and lots of time”.
MM, I don’t know why you persist in believing things that are easily provably untrue. The CDC is a government agency, run by appointees of the president (i.e. Trump’s choice for the previous 4 years) and fully funded by the tax payers.
The “$60,000 per dead Covid patient” thing was just a Facebook meme with absolutely no basis in fact anywhere. (It wasn’t $60k to start with anyway — but as with all lies, they grow with the telling). Hospitals have no incentive to fake their patients’ details, that’s fraud and would result in criminal charges if caught. Accusing doctors and nurses of being complicit in this way is a lie from the pit of Hell.
As for the vaccine — if there were serious medical issues, after hundreds of millions of doses, they would be known about by now. They have already detected and publicized a one-in-a-million problem with two vaccines — the blood clotting issue — so how on earth can you believe that dozens of countries can hide far worse issues?
Real research mean using your mind to filter the crap from the good. You are not doing that.
Why did you feel the need to call Lea “honey”?
Can you tell me how it made you feel?
May just be a regional expression.
When I was at Cal Poly working an on-campus job in the Seventies, my boss was this 60-something guy who called all his male student-employees “Son” and all his female student-employees “Hon”. I just took it to mean the visible difference in age plus (Southern?) regional expression.
Lea,
You are spreading falsehoods concerning the experimental vaccination which is actually not a vaccination, but gene therapy.
There are thousands that have died, worldwide, from receiving the shots, and thousands more that have been injured from the toxic ingredients.
The Jesus I worship, love and obey, does not require His servants to subject themselves to toxic poisons because fallen mankind tells us so. We have the Holy Spirit living inside of us, and when He tells us “No! Don’t take the jab,” I for one, will be listening to His Voice rather than yours, or some pastor that guilts, shames, propagandizes a jesus of his own understanding.
Also, Lea, Jesus hates a lying tongue.
Karen,
Please point out exactly what falsehoods I am spreading. Be specific.
Please also show your source and statistics for the “thousands that have died, worldwide, from receiving the shots, and thousands more that have been injured from the toxic ingredients” to show all of us here that you are not yourself spreading falsehoods.
If the vaccine is “toxic poison”, as you say, why are the 140 million Americans who have received a dose so far not dead?
Why do you feel a need to accuse me of lying?
Actually, Karen, you’re the one spreading falsehoods. All the claims you’ve made here about the vaccine are false and debunked.
Actually there’s been about 5-10. Literally a one-in-a-million chance. (Compared to one-in-fifty of dying from COVID itself.)
Every large-scale vaccination program or medication runs into the occasional individual who’s allergic or with a genetic quirk where the vaccine/med is actually seriously toxic. The blood clots from J&J or Oxford/Astrazenica seem to be related to undiagnosed auto-immune conditions, and possibly sex-linked because the blood clot fatalities are almost all female and fall within a certain age range. What this means is that these vaccines should not be used if you fall into those categories. Fortunately, there are two others approved in the USA.
You don’t have a spirit of fear? That can be dangerous if you have to cross through an intersection. A little bit of fear might be a good thing.
Are you suggesting that countless medical scholars from prominent medical scholars are:
1) Mis-informed
2) A part of a large-scale conspiracy to spread misinformation?
Fear isn’t always bad.
Fear is a bad master to live under.
Medical professionals’ opinions do help. And believers have the Holy Spirit to help us with our choices.
LW, Ironically, you show at length your irrational spirit of fear against the vaccines.
When people don’t get vaccinated against COVID or other diseases, it allows the pathogen to persist in a society, with potential devastating, deadly results, so yes, what you and other anti-vaxxers do is society’s concern.
Measles outbreaks in the USA still occur because of anti-vaxxers, Polio has been eradicated world-wide except for a few developing countries where there are still lower vaccine rates.
LW, please stop spreading your lies and disinformation.
Shame on you.
Let us share opinions, yet not stoop to criticism as we share here.
TRUTH counts first. These aren’t vaccines by definition (Merriam Webster changed the definition recently). I include the actual definition below*.
You aren’t helping your neighbor by getting this gene therapy because you can still get Covid and still transmit it.
There is no excuse for Christians not to be discerning and not to be very sure what they are putting into their body of which they are stewards. If they are genuine Christians, the Holy Spirit indwells and the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:16-17).
For starters, there is Pfizer’s ex-vice president Mike Yeadon on the Delingpod podcast (freely available on Podbean, Apple podcasts or YouTube) and on Bitchute and there is “Perspectives on the Pandemic with the eminent German professor Sucharit Bakhdi” on YouTube among many other sources.
If this gene therapy drive was all innocent and for our good, they would allow contrary opinions on our mainstream media instead of smearing and banning them, as they did with contrary opinions to the lockdowns.
From Moderna’s trial website:
*”Typical vaccines for viruses are made from a weakened or inactive virus but mRNA-1273 is not made from the SARS-CoV-2 virus. It is made from messenger rinonucleic acid (mRNA), a genetic code that tells cells how to make protein, which helps the body’s immune system make antibodies to fight the virus” (1)
Moderna described its products not as a vaccine but as “gene therapy technology” in SEC filings (and they are also considered “gene therapy” by the FDA):
**THIS IS BECAUSE NEITHER PFIZER NOR MODERNA MAKE ANY CLAIMS ABOUT THEIR PRODUCTS CREATING IMMUNITY NOR PREVENTING TRANSMISSION**
(1) Moderna COVE study
MHEUSTON – You’re tossing around a lot of very technical terms. I don’t have training in microbiology to know if gene therapy is actually a bad thing. Full disclosure here, I don’t know. From what little I understand, the antibodies in our body are in essence doing a form of gene therapy in response to viral invasions.
In the interest of full disclosure, are you a classically trained scientist?
MHeuston, I wonder if you consider the smart phone in your pocket “not a phone by definition” because it has no cord or handset? And yet it performs the function of a phone. Yes, the “definition” of a phone has changed as technology has progressed.
Vaccines have moved from being made of live viruses (smallpox) to being made of weakened viruses (polio) to being made of dead viruses (influenza) to being made of pieces of viral or viral-like genetic material (COVID-19). All perform the function of a vaccine, which is to induce a protective immune response. Vaccine science, like phone technology, has progressed.
As to helping our neighbors, vaccines do not eliminate, but do significantly reduce, the transmission of a virus, making it far less likely that our neighbor will get sick. This is math.
Yes, yes. Thanks.
Thank God, finally a fellow christian with a sound mind. Do some research you who have taken this shot given freely from a beast system.
I remember when Henry Kissinger was PROVEN from SCRIPTURE to be The Antichrist…
And “do your research” is also a QAnon buzzword phrase.
The last few comments provide some reassurance there is some remnants of a connection to humanity. On the other end of the spectrum, it’s sad and concerning that many who identify as Christian can present themselves as emotionally disconnected. At first pass, I feel a bit of anger towards the insensitive attitudes. Then I’m more curious about how so many evangelicals arrive at this place. CNN provides a pretty fair view of the message coming from some Christian leaders. It includes a few comments from John MacArthur
What evangelicals are hearing from some pastors about Covid-19 – CNN Video
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/04/26/roll-the-tape-evangelical-pastors-coronavirus-vaccine-keilar-sot-newday-vpx.cnn
The other thing that should ring a few alarm bells is the emotional disconnection for others in their community. While I’m not suggesting anti-vaxers are the same as those from Westboro Baptist Church, I do see a disturbing common theme. I heard a great message from Megan Phelps-Roper who grew up in the Westboro church, and told her story about breaking free from the Cult. Look it up on TED talks if you like. One of the things she called out is how the church pretty much hated humanity. The church was perfectly comfortably to say the most insensitive, egregious, and hurtful things to so-called “non believers”. In fact, they were taught there was always even a biblical reason/justification for their hateful actions. That’s what I see going on here in the comments. There is an element of us vs. them, and that usually points to isolation. I think there is a missed opportunity for Christians here, particularly those who choose not to take the vaccine. How about seeing other people where they are for what they are? Instead of stepping up ones commitment to their position as it relates to vaccines, it would be better (I think) to acknowledge what others are feeling. It would be nice to say something along the lines of “I can see how COVID is scary as it brings uncertainty. I wrestle with the same concerns myself …. and so on…”.
The other thing that concerns me is these comments are going back and forth while a ton of people in India are literally dying in the streets. The news shows stories of family members weeping over the loss of their loved ones. There are mass cremations, because they can’t dispose of the bodies fast enough. Does that bother anyone? I’m sure many readers of Julie’s blog do genuinely care and are heartbroken. Unfortunately, there are quite a few who prioritize being “right” and will double down against being told what to do, betraying their sense of humanity in the process. I’m glad some people have a tender heart. I’m also quite concerned how many are persuaded by misinformation campaigns. God help us.
-Tony
Thanks for bringing up India, Tony. My heart weeps for it.
Unfortunately, the misinformation repeated by many in this thread is often accompanied by nationalist propaganda that says the COVID pandemic was designed to bring shadowy conspiracies to pass in the United States. This leads them to ignore the suffering of the rest of the world from COVID-19.
American evangelicals generally have adopted a very navel-gazing stance in which everything that happens is about the USA.
There is of course no support for this in the Scripture, or from the God who so loved the WORLD, and whose heart is touched with the feeling of ALL of their infirmities, and whose heart we know was especially for the poor and downtrodden, like many of those suffering in India.
I think I agree with you in many respects, Tony. It saddens me to see the “emotional disconnect” even believers/Christians have with each other in this comments section. Instead of empathy or genuine listening to understand, it becomes, “You’re wrong, let me prove I’m right!”
Sigh.
We are far too quick to dismiss one another. We can say, “Yeah, I can understand why you find this virus scary.” Yet we can also say, “I understand your concerns why something seems off here.” Because many feel that way too, and it doesn’t make them misinformed or conspiracy theorists. Or that they are a “nationalist” deluded by propaganda. I have my suspicions, would you dismiss me?
I think we are all wrestling the best way we know how. These are curious times.
I have faith in the Holy Spirit’s ability to guide believers in making decisions (like a vaccine). If the apostles in the Book of Acts, and countless testimonies of other saints telling of the Holy Spirit’s help, why not us?
Also, the Bible says we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but principalities and powers. Daniel interceded and Gabriel had the answer but he was warring 21 days with the Prince (principality) over Persia. We are to know the signs of the times. We know via Revelation and there will be a one world government…maybe there are those trying to use the pandemic to work in something more nefarious. Maybe not. Concerns may not be unfounded.
I reject the term “evangelical” for it puts us in too tiny a box. I’m a Christian. Daughter of God.
I think (no matter our opinion) things during 2020-21 have been weird. Scary at times. Frustrating. Sad.
That story of India is heartbreaking. Sad too is the emotional and spiritual toll it’s had on people, from the separation, stress, fear, and loneliness. I think of how kids are taking this all in.
In 2020, due to a family situations I went through a crucible of needing to understand those who were different than me. We all wanted to be right. It hurt at times. humbling. Yet it worked out and we emerged from it better, because we all cared about the same thing despite our disagreements.
That’s why I said, it’s up to us, Church. If we can listen, pray, be real, and be empathetic to one another, then we can do so for those outside the church.
God, You can heal us. Bring on a Great Awakening.
Instead of empathy or genuine listening to understand, it becomes, “You’re wrong, let me prove I’m right!”
– S
“For in the Devil’s theology, the most important thing is to be Absolutely Right and prove everyone else to be Absolutely Wrong. This does not lead to peace among men.”
— Thomas Merton, “Moral Theology of the Devil”
Tony, you are being rather emotional and unfair yourself because many people (including Mike Yeadon, former Pfizer vice president and Professor Sucharit Bakhdi who appears on “Perspectives on the Pandemic” on YouTube and elsewhere, which I recommend you listen to) are most definitely NOT “anti vaxxers” but have serious concerns about the Pfizer and Moderna products which are not vaccines by definition. They are gene therapy and do not offer immunity or prevent transmission. The inventors simply hope to reduce symptoms.
Secondly, India has a population of over 1.3 BILLION. That is nearly a BILLION MORE than the US. Their death toll is currently 200,000, a third of that in the US.
Please be discerning about what you’re fed by mainstream media.
India’s situation is still very dynamic, while ours has stablized. I don’t think I’d draw any conclusions about how bad things are based on these numbers. Also, given India’s extreme poverty, it’s highly unlikely that this number is accurate.
MHEUSTON – If I’m emotional I’ll take that as a complement. I hope to remain empathetic towards others who are impacted by COVID.
As far as India goes, I form my opinions by talking to people who actually live there. I’m privileged (and grateful) to have a job where I can connect with friends and colleagues on video calls each day. What’s happening in India is pretty real. The concentration of the problem does vary from city to city- it’s not pervasive across the whole country. If you’re suggesting my sources are tied to main stream media, I don’t know what to tell you. Do you know if a more credible source than speaking with multiple people who can give a first hand account of what’s happening? I certainly hope (I mean really hope) you aren’t suggesting the plight of India doesn’t matter because it doesn’t line up with the narrative from your trusted news sources. That would be quite disappointing.
I’m a human being with white skin. I was raised Baptist and am of the opinion (we can still have those, I assume) that most hypocrites are IN THE CHURCHES, regardless of denomination and that explains why young people and even those like myself, late 30s to early 40s, are leaving the church in huge numbers.
Now, explain to me why it’s suddenly the ‘thing to do’ to slap a label on EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO COULD POSSIBLY form a semi-group of like minded(-ish) people? What exactly does evangelical have to do with the decision not to get this shot that people keep calling a vaccine? I am absolutely against it and I am not any sort of -gelical.
1) EUA is simply government speak for releasing a largely untested (assuming there was even basic testing done) material of some sort on a population and conducting their experimental concoction on scared desperate people.
2) BLOOD CLOTS? Most people probably don’t remember that a doctor who was healthy and active and, unfortunately, believed whole heatedly in vaccines that was one of the first several to get the vaccine died from a condition that caused him to stop producing platelets and so hemorrhaged to death. But he died of “natural causes”?!
Fast forward to now, reports from, not just the US, but Norway, Italy, Iceland, Romania, Denmark that these shots cause bloating d clots and the US at first says “Oh, no! It can’t be because of an untested drug we just threw at people! Get the shot!!” A week later … We’re suspending these specific shoes because of a RARE reaction that cause clots but also causes the badly to stop making the platelets responsible for the clotting effect. People have had clots in their brain. One man looked as if he’s been thrown in boiling water.
But the shots are back in full swing because why? For Europe, their main drug regulator, the Agency said “THE VACCINE’S BENEFITS OUTWEIGH ANY RISKS.”
I’m going to say that people who are still ALIVE can say this. But nobody seems to be thinking about the fact that people can have clots in their body for YEARS and never know it until the have a wreck or fall just the wrong way. Then that’s all she wrote. Also, the death rate for Covid was extremely small. I’m going to bet it was as small or smaller than the risks for this crap in a needle.
Also, doctors are being paid to give this shot to people. As a matter of fact, they are being reimbursed TWICE. For shots they have when it first came out, they were only paid $15 -20 power shot. Now and for the last month, they get$40 for every shot they give more and can turn in the paperwork for the originals they were paid up to $20 for and get reimbursed AGAIN with the same$40 as each new shot. That was on the insurance website for Alabama Medicaid.
Bottom line is $$$ and if anyone thinks for a second that the government gives one good darn about anyone, then that person has been doing more than being vaccinated. So maybe that will help with the people who keep asking WHY a person would choose not to get the shot. Oh, and Pfizer’s shot is NOT a vaccine.
“Also, the death rate for Covid was extremely small. I’m going to bet it was as small or smaller than the risks for this crap in a needle.”
His Mom, please provide the sources and statistics for your claim. Unsupported speculation like “I’m going to bet” isn’t useful, and helps noone.
You sure about those numbers, Lea?? You’d better do some more digging.
If you would like to post your own numbers, here, Joanne, please feel free to do so and cite your sources.
Mine can be found at the CDC website.
Where exactly should she dig?
Q Breadcrumb trails, what else?
good grief, Joanne – please share your corroborated sources from your ‘digging’.
Well all those who commented about India aren’t sure of their numbers because India has had a third of the total deaths in the US “with Covid” and yet India has a population of over 1.3 billion.
In other words, they have a BILLION more inhabitants than the USA but have had 200,000 deaths compared to the US’s 600,000.
Of course deaths are tragic, but it’s mind blowing what an effect images can have and how they can make people believe a situation is 100 times worse than it is.
How many people cared about deaths due to poverty and disease in India before this week, I wonder…
The concern in India is the sudden and rapid increase in the rate of infection and death, which has overwhelmed both the hospitals and the crematoria, and the inability to provide care to those who are infected. The total number as of today isn’t the issue.
But I’m glad to see you accept the massive scale of deaths in the United States, instead of asserting that the numbers are faked.
I have a family member doing mission work in India. I can assure I have cared about its people long before this week, or indeed before the advent of COVID-19.
How many people cared about deaths due to poverty and disease in India before this week, I wonder.
***
Good point. Maybe the Lord is using this to awaken our spirits about the need to love our neighbors as ourselves, and to show us where we have been lacking. Maybe God is using COVID to test us, to see how we treat one another, to see how faithful we are to Him, to see whether we trust Him.
We may have differences of opinion about the seriousness of COVID and whether we should wear masks or get the vaccine; but despite those differences, we all should be loving one another. The unity we have in Christ overrides all human opinions and distinctions.
Can any Christian, preferably from a mega church tell me why it is ok to FEAR Covid and/or to FEAR a vaccine?
Why is FEAR being discussed at all?
Read Mark Noll’s “Scandal of the Evangelical Mind” if you want to understand the roots of the sort of anti-intellectualism and politicized, paranoid fear-mongering which drives this sort of thing among white American evangelicals. Dispensational theology is one major source of it, but the problems go back almost all the way to the time of the founders.
Gordon thanks for sharing this comment. Although some of my theology could be called dispensational, I would not label myself a dispensationalist, nor would I consider myself anti-intellectual. I should read up more on this subject, as you suggested.
One of the things that has been a curiosity for me is how much certain corners of the church today resemble the church in the middle ages. I am thinking of the kind of anti-intellectualism that took place when Galileo tried to tell people that the earth went around the sun, and how he was essentially excommunicated for it. Even as a child, I thought that was silly since the science that he advocated did not contradict anything in the Bible, and yet the church at the time tried to make a spiritual issue. I see similar things regarding COVID and the vaccine, and how some believers have tried to make this a spiritual issue, as if these things are satanic lies.
Another thing that I think has caused this problem of anti-intellectualism in the church is, ironically, post-modernism, which is characterized by doubt and the desire to question everything. I did a lot of campus evangelism for many years and worked at a university as well, and I met countless students and other people whose thinking was characterized by post-modernism. Some of the evangelicals I hear today who doubt the seriousness of COVID or think that the vaccine is part of a broader conspiracy sound eerily like many of those students to whom I talked. Maybe this is a reflection of how unhealthy the church has become. Like ancient Israel, maybe our prosperity has made us complacent and proud.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply Darren.
Evangelicals usually are the first to applaud Israel. It’s patriotic citizens and businesses desired to do whatever it took to protect its national health and get their economy back to full strength as quickly as possible. Israelis chose to simply be vaccinated allowing Israel to now be the first democracy/country in the the world closest to reaching herd immunity against Covid-19. Yet U.S. Christian media is strangely silent lauding Israel’s successful example.
That’s because to them Israel is there as the tripwire for Armageddon, nothing more. Israel is In The Land, fulfilling End Times Prophecy, so Israel Can Do No Wrong but they’re still Jews whom Christ will destroy upon His return.
Before I knew this was called “Christian ZIonism”, my personal description of it was “Anti-Semitic Zionism”.
There is a LOT of Crazy out there that calls itself TRUTH.
Fear is being discussed because it has been the driving force behind the entire pandemic and all that it affects the world over since it was discovered. Fear has driven the bus in every decision individuals have made, be that business,political, financial,career, personal relationships and spiritual. From day one it was evident the real disease is not the Covid 19 virus ……the real disease is fear …fear of the disease, fear of the unknown, fear of the reality that everyone on Earth could possibly meet our Creator sooner that they want to, fear of missing out. Yes the media picked it and ran with it because it was sensationalized and many stable individuals began panicking because their entire brain diet was sourced at the media well and people drank as much as they could. Personal fortunes they had worked long & hard for disappeared in a snap because fear drove disastrous decisions. What was once good health became poor because fear rapidly turned into anxiety that turns into depression. Those responsible for treating cancers of every kind, geriatric issues, pediatric medicine et al chose fear and stopped treatment fearing there wouldn’t have enough room for the projected crush of critically ill / near death covid cases(only to find out after commons sense was applied, that the projection models were not scientific at all , just models with a pre determined outcome). And all those needing cancer treatments, transplants and heart surgeries were told to wait, causing them to live in the very real fear they might die needlessly because of the fearful choice the medical industry made to stop treatments. Fear has aged the entire population of the plant. When it became very apparent that trust in statements by WHO and CDC were becoming confusing and competitive it created more mistrust and fear….at a time when the world needed a rock solid source. But alas…our world kept ( and still is) looking elsewhere when our Lord provided the only true vaccine in two words “Fear Not”.
The approach is NOT to simply say these two words numerous times a day while rubbing the miracle prayer cloth and sipping holy water and all fear will vanish. To “Fear Not ” is a commitment to live boldy in the freedom he gave by creating all of us…..with the ability to make healthy choices by thinking matters thru first and reacting later.
I refuse to live in fear of the inevitable….. I will die someday and see our Lord face to face…..and the pain of this world will be over…..no need to fear that…..don’t be fooled, fear is a tool of the enemy.
The Old Testament has multiple chapters on how to avoid the spread of disease, including procedures for quarantine. Were they given out of fear?
Taking prudent steps to prevent contracting or spreading a disease isn’t fear, and it isn’t a lack of trust in God. It is as reasonable as taking prudent steps to avoid being run over in the street.
You said it, Conman!
“To “Fear Not ” is a commitment to live boldy in the freedom he gave by creating all of us…..with the ability to make healthy choices by thinking matters thru first and reacting later.”
Courage is the true spiritual vaccine.
I will share a few stories. Spring 2020, a Christian friend of mine got sick with COVID-19 and recovered. She noticed when she gave into fear, her symptoms were far worse, but when she battled her fear, they were not as bad. “The virus runs off fear,” she said. It left an impression on me.
The enemy wanted to use a natural circumstance (a virus) to infect people with a spirit of fear.
I notice a different vibe in the air in towns that live life in face of the virus (with masking, etc) vs a larger city I recently visited where fear was in the air. In the streets were signs saying “Wear a mask!” Distance 6 feet!” (As if we don’t know that already.) You could feel the paranoia. It was so thick I had to pray and praise aloud, only then did the vibe lift. I felt sad for the people there who have to live under that daily. We went to an art museum there, while I didn’t mind doing the things the museum asked us (masks, etc) it was strange they asked us to take a specific path and not backtrack on the loop. It felt powered by fear. It was sad, for we visitors were cut off from so much beautiful art in their other galleries. Why not create specific paths for those galleries instead of making all take one set path? It didn’t make sense.
Fear literally distorts the brain processes of how you think. Simply, you can’t think straight.
I can speak from personal experience for I’ve battled with the spirit of fear. Perfect Love casts out fear.
Early in the pandemic I decided I would refuse to live by fear. To find I could say, ok, I feel fear, but have courage “to live in the freedom” of knowing He walked with me, gave strength and joy.
I see this courage in other Christians who are looking at in this way.
Perhaps that’s why I’ve been passionate on commenting here…
I want us all to “Fear not.”
Perfect Love casts out fear.
(See 1 John 4)
The Antonine Plague in the second century is thought to have killed 5-10 million people in the Roman Empire. The Christians were taught to not fear death, and thus put themselves as great personal risk by caring for the afflicted, while most others were running for the hills. The problem many of us are seeing here is that today’s “fear not” message seems to be resulting in behavior that is not sacrificial and glorifying to Christ.
I have yet to see any of these evangelical anti-vaxxers go into a COVID-19 ward to comfort the sick and dying with the love of Jesus.
Lea, I appreciate you sharing, yet it seems you are taking that self-righteous tone with those you disagree with. Getting a shot doesn’t make you holier-than-thou, or more virtuous. It just means you got a shot.
S, while reminding others on the thread not to judge, you have passed judgment on my motivations and attitude. I have said nothing about being more virtuous or holy than others, those are your words cast upon me, not mine.
Your perception of my tone is just that, your perception.
S,
Lea must have struck a nerve with her observation that she hasn’t seen evangelical anti- vaxxers comforting those sick and dying of Covid.
I challenge all the fearless Covid deniers and anti-vaxxers to step up and walk the walk and not just talk the talk.
++ Lea
That is beyond insightful. I have suspicions as to why this isn’t happening, but I’ll withhold my prejudice for now. Again, that is beyond insightful. Ministering to those in the hospital with COVID would sure be a remarkable demonstration of ones faith.
Not that they would be allowed to. But the callousness and need to minimize Covid’s seriousness to justify a “small government” ideology is quite a contrast.
All this talk of fear as if it were some horrible thing to be vanquished, really? Yet the fear of the Lord is a phrase used over and over in both Testaments. In many more places it is implied. The famous saying “that we have nothing to fear but fear itself” is not scripture It is a quote from a U.S. President and it is pure stupidity on every level. The Fear of the Lord is a good thing. Most have none of that and then they have literally everything to fear. There are real dangers and we should fear them. We should fear getting too close to the edge of the Grand Canyon. We should fear stepping out onto a busy street without looking.
I think a lot of this stupid talk is originating with some narcissistic leaders wanting to look bigger than life. Yet if true danger came near they would tuck their tale between their legs and run like hell. People think that they are speaking for God, but they forget that Jesus was tempted by Satan to step off a high place and Satan even used a scripture in that. The obvious answer from Jesus is “do not put the Lord God to the test!” I say this because of the following:
God has always taken credit for plagues and pandemics in His Word. There are no scriptures whatsoever that give any hint that there has ever been a pandemic that He is not responsible for. In these comment streams no one talks about this fact. The question is simple: why did God release a pandemic on us now? That is the real question to gain some wisdom on. The virus is doing what it is doing. God is also allowing vaccines to be made and why is that? Those listening to paranoia are acting like God is dead so they have to grab their guns and go kill a bunch of people who are claiming to do things for the good of mankind. Is that really a Christian thing to do at all? Where does that thought come from? So is it God telling you to be paranoid about politicians and medical experts or is it Satan? Did God release this just so a bunch of famous conspiracists can make a lot of money? Did he do it so the new world order and the anti-Christ can rise to power with a disease? The logic is so broken and absurd. Maybe it is because the whole world is neck deep in sin and we need to repent? And maybe Christians first for judgment does start with the house of God? Could it be our pride, our arrogance, our compromise, out total lack of empathy. our total selfishness and self-focus, our idols we make out of men, our turning God’s temple is a den of thieves? Why is no one asking God, “Why are you doing this to us?”
Re Fear: the words have different etymological roots in Greek and Hebrew.
One translates to “timidity”, another “reverence.”
“Why is God doing this to us?”
Hmm.
To expose? To refine us? To wake us up?
Likely.
Mr Jesperson
“We should fear getting too close to the edge of the Grand Canyon. We should fear stepping out onto a busy street without looking.”
Is it the will of God that we should reign as kings and priests or is it God’s will that we should fall over the edge of the Grand Canyon or step into traffic? (And who would plant such a harmful thought in ones mind to do so? Certainly not the Holy Spirit.
God did not unleash this pandemic on mankind. God has asked us to fear not, take his yoke and to heal the sick.
On what do you base your conclusion that God is not behind this or any other pandemic? Have you read your scriptures? From the plagues of Egypt right down to the breaking of seals in the last book?
Rev 6:8 “I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.”
Jesus opened the seal and out came plagues that killed men over a quarter of the earth. I am tired of people making stuff up and then proclaiming it to be true. It is just post-modern philosophy nonsense.
Mr Jesperson
I can confidently say that God gives good things so when I ask my Father for bread He does not give me a stone. In Him there is no darkness only life.
I can confidently declare that it is God’s will for us to choose life and blessings over death and curses. Deut 30v19
The pandemic is not the will of God, it is the result of the fall of man.
“The pandemic is not the will of God, it is the result of the fall of man.” Well put & accurate.
We know from Romans 8:28 that while the evil one intends to kill & destroy using lifes horrific experiences….we see God using our horrific experiences for good. I know this intimately and have seen it repeatedly in others experiences thru the decades.
Yes it is very good for us to Fear the Lord….not man and certainly not what man can do .
It is plain that fear emotionally gripped the world because man spread the fear….not our Lord.
Mask wearing / distancing is not fear spreading, that is a smart as leaving a burning building.
Yet to allow emotional fear and irrational thinking to dominate and rule our being is not the definition of the type fear that is the beginning of wisdom.
Sigh, Jesus has died and is no longer in control of things, from your point of view. Pandemics have been released in order to get the attention of sinful man so they are both the result of sin and the will of God. But in your world we are in a lot of trouble because God does not discipline anyone including his own children.
God does have mercy on those who choose to humble themselves. But Jesus is both Lion and Lamb in the Bible I read. I find too many Christians thinking they can do away with one or the other just because they do not like thinking bout that. But that is a false Gospel of a false Jesus. The real one is in heaven and so scared John that when John saw him in His glory, he fell down as dead.
So I go back to where I started. As long as Christians are too foolish to ask God why this has been done, we are not going anywhere or learning anything. This is nothing new for the Jews did the same over and over and over. Jesus requires respect from us. There are plenty of warnings about what happens even to the people of God when we do not respect God in our daily practice. You can choose to ignore everything anyone else says but that does not make your opinion line up with what is already written.
Mr.Jesperson,
Save the dramatic keyboard response for another topic. Nothing in my response states that Jesus is dead and not in control nor is it inferred. 4 decades ago I pleaded with the Lord to save me because I knew I was not in control and had long before that day, known that He is and remains so.
Make no assumptions about the world I live in, you don’t know me and I don’t know you. Yet we exist in the same world together and can have different thoughts and responses to a topic. How you arrived at the conclusion that I’m saying”God does not discipline anyone including his own children” from my writing is beyond me. I know our Lord disciplines AND loves us ……so that when my daughter died of cancer, I did not then nor now think to ask Him why.When she died I purposely chose not ask why because it was of no good use, it wouldn;t change the fact she was gone from our life, the task before me was to serve my family in the grieving and healing process, that continues to this day, 19 years later. To accuse me of being foolish for not asking why is wrong of you to presume.
Millions thru the ages have asked “Why God?” during horrific times with no apparent answer in that present time………then the answer is provided a short time later, sometimes it is years , sometimes it comes to us thru the power of the Holy spirit and sometimes we have to wait until we see Him face to face.
Yes I do & will continue to ignore what many people say, for if I took them all to heart I couldn’t be effective as a believer. I chose this past Lent season to give up talk radio because I found my self mumbling and grumbling far too much…….I woke up to the fact that our enemy had gotten a toe hold in on me….I can’t serve others if I bring a complaining , unhappy, mumble/ grumble attitude. As for what is written only the Word matters, I don’t have an opinion on it, I just need to follow it. It is good and right for instruction and discipline on how to live my life.
Kind Regards,
Coonman
Give it a rest, Mr J.
When you were claiming this (by Private Revelation – Jesus speaking to you in a dream) on Wartburg Watch some months ago, you ended up calling all the rest of us “Scoffers” and Apostates. And you were quick with the Bible verses there too. Before you shook the dust from your feet and left us all to Satan.
The only difference between you and open phone lines on Coast to Coast AM is COVID came out of God’s Bioweapons Lab instead of Wuhan’s. To be poured out upon the church for its sins. Like using a B-61 nuke on max yield to take care of a cockroach infestation in the kitchen.
I’m no longer a “White Evangelical”, just a Christian. While I understand that these people leaving comments about crazy conspiracies deserve our grace and love, I am really tired of them. As my pastor used to say “Jesus gives salvation, not education”. My only recommendation to them would be stop watching Fox and start reading the Bible.
Wheaton College continues its war against white evangelicals. What used to be the flagship of the evangelical movement is now a battleship with its missiles aimed at evangelicals who haven’t become “woke” enough to suit the increasingly left-leaning faculty. I’m not debating vaccines (since I’ve had mine) – just pointing out that “white evangelicals” are now Wheaton’s favorite target. (See the January letter from the TDS-afflicted faculty.)
I may be missing something, but I don’t see evidence of Mr. Aten was threatened, including that death threats were made against him.
Can the police report be posted, with identifying information redacted
Ugh – evidence THAT (not of). Apologies for error
Yes, I would like to see that report as well. This all has the smell of, “Rome is burning and those white evangelical Christians did it”
1 Peter 2:13-17
“Why I Won’t Be Getting the Vaccine” by Christian Elliot at mercola.com.
I respect what this individual presents regarding truth.
The falsehoods of the article you cite have already been exposed by reliable fact-checkers.
“18 Reasons I Won’t Be Getting a COVID Vaccine’ Post Filled With Reckless Falsehoods
A blog post riddled with misinformation is effectively a “Now That’s What I Call Music” style anthology of debunked anti-vaccine and COVID-19 denial claims.”
“Nearly all of the 18 reasons provided by Elliot are scientifically incorrect, overt misrepresentations, or irrelevant to the safety of COVID-19 vaccines. The post repeatedly pushes the false notion that COVID-19 vaccines do not prevent death, infection, and transmission. In several cases, Elliot misunderstands or misrepresents completely the data he cites to support his reasoning.”
Source: snopes.com/news/2021/04/16/18-reasons-why/
You are using Snopes as a source? It seems you have not done your homework on the reliability of that site. Based on the standard you have held everyone else to throughout this thread, I am surprised. In fact, the speed and consistency with which you reply to people’s posts leaves the strong impression that you have nothing else to do but attempt to shoot down every opinion that does not align with your own. Providing a plethora of internet sources does not prove your point since the reliability of information and sources is becoming more and more difficult to verify. When people over post credibility diminishes.
Snopes is a well-known fact-checking website, KG. If you would care to examine their work, you will notice that they provide links and sources for every assertion that they make in rebutting Christian Elliot’s article, including to original source documents such as scientific papers and legal fillings.
Interestingly, none of the COVID deniers and anti-vaxers on this thread have been able to provide any such back-up to their vague assertions like “thousands dead” and “toxic poisons”.
When asked to verify these claims with statistics and sources, 8 of these commenters just went silent. One answered but provided only a reference to a tabloid and a facebook meme. It’s been very revealing.
I take your intended criticism of the “speed and consistency” of my responses here as a compliment!
Thanks for that.
Snopes is a well regarded fact-checking site, KG, with high credibility ratings. Their rebuttal of Elliot’s list has extensive links to original source material including scientific papers and legal documents.
Mercola, on the other hand, is the subject of numerous lawsuits and investigations by the FDA and the FTC, including over his claims that his $1000+ tanning beds would actually reduce the chance of getting cancer. Mercola was forced to return over 5 million dollars to customers for those false claims. So yes, definitely consider the source.
And I’ll take your comments about my speed and consistency as a compliment, thank you very much!
LEA, Open your eyes women!!! Yield to the Holy Spirit! You are seeing darkness NOT light. You keep asking everybody for proof and when they give it to you, you deny it. God is sending these messengers of truth and yet you turn away. It will not end well for you.
MM, you provided a link to a tabloid article, a facebook meme known to be false, and a reference to a website whose data you misunderstood.
None of that is proof of anything, nor is there any truth in them.
The mishmash of conspiracy theories you have posted in this thread displays the confusion of darkness–of which God is not the author–rather than the light of Christ.
Lea
Let’s simplify.
Everyone here is entitled to state their opinion without being bullied, steamrolled, and treated in a condescending manner.
No one has the right to demand that others provide explanations or proof for their opinions.
The tone of many of your posts is argumentative and divisive.
People are not impressed so give it a rest.
“People are not impressed so give it a rest”.
That’s a very condescending statement, KG. And I’m far from the only person in this thread who has asked those posting outrageous claim–not opinions, but claims–about viruses and vaccines for proof of their assertions.
Do you wish to shut us all down as “argumentative and divisive” in tone, or is it just me?
KG,
“No one has the right to demand that others provide explanations or proof for their opinions.”
I am not sure what “rights” has to do with it. But if someone expects me to believe their opinion on a serious topic I expect them to be able to back that opinion with facts.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
For the benefit of all, here is a good rule of thumb to follow on these blogs.
Titus 3:10-11
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a person has deviated from what is right and is sinning, being self-condemned.
I won’t be silenced by your misapplication of Scripture, KG.
KG,
Context.
I do not see vaccines as a foolish controversy. She said nothing about genealogies nor did she engage in arguments and quarrels about the law.
She is not engaging herself in discussion yet you single her out.
9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned. Titus 3-9-11
Personally, if my opionions are formed on facts that can be proven false, I’d prefer to be challenged. But that’s just my opinion.