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Warren Throckmorton Takes on David Barton & ‘Christian Nationalists’ Revisionist History’

Por Bob Smietana
david barton
David Barton speaks at a Nevada Courageous Conservatives rally at the Henderson Convention Center in Henderson, Nevada, on Feb. 21, 2016. (Photo by Gage Skidmore/Flickr/Creative Commons)

In the early 2000s, psychology professor Warren Throckmorton spent much of his spare time blogging about his academic work — especially his move in 2005 from supporting so-called reparative therapy and the ex-gay movement to believing attempts to change people’s sexuality were wrong.

Then David Barton changed his life.

Beginning in 2011, Throckmorton began critiquing Barton’s work — especially the popular writer, speaker and political operative’s attempts to turn Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson into modern-day evangelicals.

Throckmorton — who taught for years at Grove City College — would become one of Barton’s most influential conservative critics and played a key role in the downfall of “The Jefferson Lies,” Barton’s bestselling reimagining of Thomas Jefferson as a man on fire for Jesus.  

The book was filled with so many mistakes — many of them detailed in “Getting Jefferson Right,” a booklong critique published by Throckmorton and fellow Grove City College professor Michael Coulter in 2012 — that Barton’s publisher, Thomas Nelson, retracted the book, despite its appearance on the New York Times bestseller list.

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warren throckmorton david barton jefferson
Covers of the “The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You’ve Always Believed About Thomas Jefferson” by David Barton; and “Getting Jefferson Right” by Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter. (Courtesy images)

Casey Francis Harrell, a spokesman for Thomas Nelson, told the Tennessean and other media outlets in 2012 that conservative historians and critics had pointed out errors in the book.

“Because of these deficiencies, we decided that it was in the best interest of our readers to cease its publication and distribution,” Harrell said.

Had Barton — the founder of Wallbuilders, an Aledo, Texas-based sin ánimo de lucro that promotes “education regarding the Christian history of our nation” — been an academic or trained historian, his career would likely have been over, said Throckmorton.

But Barton, a longtime GOP activist, is more political operative than historian, argues Throckmorton, and is more concerned with telling stories about America’s past than in recounting the truth.

“Political operatives take a licking and keep on ticking,” said Throckmorton, who recently retired from Grove City, where he taught psychology for decades.

Despite the controversy of “The Jefferson Lies,” Barton’s influence has endured, finding an eager audience with the rise of nacionalismo cristiano in the age of Trump. Most recently he has made national headlines because of his ties to Speaker of the House Mike Johnson, who shares many of his views about America as a Christian nation. 

The rise of Christian nationalism — the idea that America belongs to Christians and that Christians have a God-given right to rule — prompted Throckmorton and his co-author to go ahead with an updated version of “Getting Jefferson Right,” which takes on Barton as well as other conservative authors like Eric Metaxas and Stephen Wolfe — all of whom promote what Throckmorton calls “Christian nationalists’ revisionist history.”

warren throckmorton
Warren Throck Morton

Had Barton — the founder of Wallbuilders, an Aledo, Texas-based sin ánimo de lucro that promotes “education regarding the Christian history of our nation” — been an academic or trained historian, his career would likely have been over, said Throckmorton.

But Barton, a longtime GOP activist, is more political operative than historian, argues Throckmorton, and is more concerned with telling stories about America’s past than in recounting the truth.

“Political operatives take a licking and keep on ticking,” said Throckmorton, who recently retired from Grove City, where he taught psychology for decades.

“It’s the attempt to create a usable past — a past that fits your ideology in the present,” said Throckmorton. He and his co-author argue in the second edition of their book, published last month, that Christian nationalists want to reinterpret Jefferson to suit their own goals.

The book is needed, he said, because of Barton’s ongoing influence, built on what Throckmorton called bad facts and a faulty narrative. 

Barton did not respond to a request for comment.

Robert Tracy McKenzie, professor of history at Wheaton College and author of “We the Fallen People: The Founders and the Future of American Democracy,” said Barton has used the criticism against him to his advantage.

McKenzie said Barton is telling two stories at once — one about America’s past, the other about America in the present. In that second story, Barton accuses academics of distorting the religious nature of America’s past and paints himself as a hero for rediscovering it.

“For at least some evangelicals, then, the more the Academy challenges Barton, the more they rally around him,” McKenzie said in an email. “It strengthens rather than weakens his brand.”

Messiah College historian John Fea, who endorsed the new edition of “Getting Jefferson Right,” said Throckmorton has done important work in pointing out Barton’s factual errors. He also said that along with getting facts wrong, Barton lacks a historian’s perspective when interpreting America’s founding — acting as if nothing has changed between 1776 and 2023.

“He has no ability to think about the relationship between the past and the present in responsible ways,” said Fea.

Fea also said that Barton is a marketing genius — using the criticism against him to build his brand and using his connections to corner the home-schooling market, where his ideas are often embraced by parents. 

The fight over Jefferson also reflects the larger culture war that has raged in the United States for decades — a war in which retelling America’s founding plays a key role.

“The entire culture war in the United States is based upon getting the Founders on your side, and Barton is able to do that,” he said.

thomas jefferson
Portrait of Thomas Jefferson by Gilbert Stuart, c. 1821. (Image courtesy of Wikipedia/Creative Commons)

Along with the new book, Throckmorton is working on a podcast recounting the downfall of “The Jefferson Lies.” Both projects were driven in part by his concerns about the rise of Christian nationalism.

Throckmorton — whose blog also played a key role in the fall of Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church by publicizing Driscoll’s plagiarism and the church’s toxic culture — first began investigating Christian nationalism long before the rise of MAGA.

He’d been blogging for years when he began to read about a proposed 2009 law in Uganda that would have outlawed homosexuality and jailed LGBTQ people. The law was backed by Christian groups in Uganda, many of whom had ties to American evangelicals.

Throckmorton began to work with other American bloggers and journalists to oppose the law and investigate the Christians working in Uganda — whom he described as Christian nationalists.

If Christian nationalist ideas — like imposing biblical laws on secular society — were growing in places like Uganda, he wondered where else they might be taking root. That led him to investigate groups in the United States with Christian nationalist leanings.

“All roads led to David Barton,” he said.

Bob SmietanaBob Smietana es reportero nacional de Religion News Service.

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50 Respuestas

  1. Interested in reading the second edition of Getting Jefferson Right.

    It looks like a few paragraphs we repeated, by mistake, in this article:

    “Had Barton — the founder of Wallbuilders, an Aledo, Texas-based nonprofit that promotes ‘education regarding the Christian history of our nation’ — been an academic or trained historian, his career would likely have been over, said Throckmorton.

    But Barton, a longtime GOP activist, is more political operative than historian, argues Throckmorton, and is more concerned with telling stories about America’s past than in recounting the truth.

    ‘Political operatives take a licking and keep on ticking,’ said Throckmorton, who recently retired from Grove City, where he taught psychology for decades.”

      1. These are repeated, before and beside the photo of Throckmartin:

        Had Barton — the founder of Wallbuilders, an Aledo, Texas-based nonprofit that promotes “education regarding the Christian history of our nation” — been an academic or trained historian, his career would likely have been over, said Throckmorton.

        But Barton, a longtime GOP activist, is more political operative than historian, argues Throckmorton, and is more concerned with telling stories about America’s past than in recounting the truth.

        “Political operatives take a licking and keep on ticking,” said Throckmorton, who recently retired from Grove City, where he taught psychology for decades.

  2. Jeremiah 44:18 is a prime example of interpreting history falsely. Jeremiah was right. The people were wrong. The two views represented here however, have the common distinction of BOTH being wrong. One side wants political power through revision. The other side wants immorality to be considered godly. Both of these views will lose in the end.

  3. One should assume that if just about everything in America has its variants the same must go for Christian Nationalism. I have too wonder if different groups argue with each other about how far they should go in their ideology and if those who differ from each other are considered heretics.

    Regardless of this observation I still consider the movent to be dangerous and apportions too much power to the wrong types of people who have bad motives.

  4. The Christian home-schooling movement has many things that concern me. Near the top of the list is the connection to White Christian Nationalism via extremist ideology disguised as curriculum. The perpetual cry from the home-schoolers and their advocates is that public schools indoctrinate innocent children. People like Barton do the same thing.

    1. Public education in the United States has many things that concern me. Near the top of the list is its connection to powerful teachers’ unions that closed schools down during the inundation of COVID despite evidence children were the least likely to become infected. Instead of teaching, some “educators” went on vacation and enjoyed “working” from home for many months. Children suffered emotionally and in countless other ways as a result. Many are still far behind academically. Many graduating seniors cannot read and young children had to learn how to interpret social cues while wearing masks, a very difficult feat. Many young children also lost out on early vocabulary development due to imposed mask wearing.

      In my opinion, anyone who supports American public education in its current form is either woefully ignorant or incredibly blind. Home-schooling will continue to be the go-to alternative for parents who can juggle work with teaching their children. Except in very wealthy school districts, public school is no longer a viable option for parents who care about their kids and want them to succeed in the world.

      1. Talk about revisionist history. Teachers suffered more than most professions during the pandemic, and many died as the result of exposure from the disease. Children might not have been as susceptible to severe Covid infections but before the vaccines were available, teachers — many of them with co-morbidities and/or over 50 — were literally putting their lives on the line by staying in the classroom. And far from teachers “enjoying” their time out of the classroom, many ended up quitting or retiring from the profession rather than put up with the additional stresses of teaching kids during the pandemic.

        Your accusations and total lack of empathy for teachers are an absolute disgrace, and have no basis in fact.

      2. DR: None of your criticisms about public education are new. I could add several myself. What about the myth of local control? Or having textbooks controlled by a select few? However, you failed to address the home-schooling concern I raised which suggests you’re ok with indoctrinating their children in the ways of White Christian Nationalism. No need to deflect the valid criticism I raised.

      3. Or perhaps those who support public education don’t have the money or resources for the alternative.
        Or perhaps they want to see their tax dollars actually work.
        53% of my last property tax bill went to Chicago Public Schools (less than 25% went to the city), and I don’t even have kids in CPS. But I believe in the value of a quality foundational education for ALL regardless of income (the alternative is woeful), so I’m going to STAY updated, involved and supportive of CPS to do better by the kids and parents of my community.
        I have family members who homeschool their kids (and have made significant sacrifices to do so), and I do believe there needs to be a review of the curriculum.
        But like it or not, with so few classrooms AND home rooms teaching kids to critically think (because God forbid our kids develop informed opinions we disagree with), it’s safe to say most are being indoctrinated one way or the other.

    2. Mr. Busetti, as a homeschooling father myself who chooses the curriculum for my children, I would like more information about the books that you describe as “extremist ideology disguised as curriculum.” Could you please be more specific? Are there certain publishers or specific books that you would recommend I avoid?

      If you want to respond to me personally, you’re welcome to do so – deacon.darren.jones -at- gmail

      1. I can help answer your question, Mr. Jones. I am a retired teacher (25+ years). Children’s books published by David Barton’s Wall Builders are ones I would avoid. I home-schooled my children for several years. I did use those books as supplemental material b/c I wanted my children to know that God is at work in all of history. I also pointed out things in them that I knew were incorrect or exaggerated. I haven’t seen material published by Bob Jones in a long time, but at the time I found those texts didn’t really present an accurate picture of US history either. Studies Weekly is another curriculum I would avoid b/c of its seeming support for slavery.

      2. For example, Abeka: The History of the United States in Christian Perspective. The other popular homeschooling curriculum providers Accelerated Christian Education and Bob Jones University Press take a similar tack. I’m not a fan of The Guardian or The Washington Post because they are decidedly Progressive Left. However, these articles point out what I’m talking about by quoting textbooks. Would have been much better had they cited more specific textbooks by name. A little time spent using search engines will get you the information. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/aug/12/right-wing-textbooks-teach-slavery-black-immigration y https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2022/12/23/how-christian-nationalism-seeped-into-home-schooling/

  5. You got to love Throckmorton for fact checking a number of things we call Christian. The article forgot to mention his role in the exposing of Gospel for Asia as a scam. That ended up costing them over $100 million when they settled out of court which is no small accomplishment.

  6. So let me get this straight ….we have the following:

    David Barton – Good marketer , poor historian

    College Professors – Good Historians, poor marketers….

    So naturally, U.S. evangelicals go for the guy with the good marketing skills…. reminds me of mega churches and how they operate…

    Jefferson was a product of the Enlightenment… so of course he removed the virgin birth, miracles, atoning work of Christ, resurrection, etc. …from the Jefferson bible…that is expected…

    What is not expected, is all these white U.S. evangelicals who claim this country was founded on “Christian” values…

    You mean Jefferson’s values and ….

    How about these Christian values….

    – The scores of enslaved black people in the various colonies…
    – The massive amount of smuggling in the Dutch Trade…
    – The terrorizing of people by “Patriots” who did not support the Cause…
    – The unwillingness of “Patriots” to pay even the smallest amount of taxes to the Crown….

    I guess it is the same majority of U.S. White Evangelicals who love the current guy who goes around saying he is going to destroy his opposition like vermin…

    I guess not much has changed in 250 years….

    1. <>

      Same thing happens with pop theology books (Jonathan Cahn and the like). The really solid theological books are too often above the level of the average churchgoer, and the junk stuff gets marketed out the wazoo by Charisma and the like.

    2. To Gordon Jansma:

      “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
      –Preamble to the United States Constitution

      Lest you forgot…No other document comes close, no other document can touch it. And, please, if you feel the need to concentrate on everything that is wrong in the USA, you should probably begin asking why it is that so many people try to come here every day. Based on your negative views and comments, they must all be crazy. Or, perhaps, they possess a comparison factor you lack…

        1. So where did this principle come from that is stated in the Declaration of Independence? “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

          1. @Don,

            Yes the Declaration Independence mentions God 4 times… and the Constitution 0 times..

            Though Jefferson who basically rote the Declaration would deny the deity of Christ… okay .. so he is being consistent with his Enlightenment principles….

            But if Jesus is God and we deny that… then what God is being referenced in the Declaration of Independence…?… Just askin…

            It is interesting that Jefferson helped Layfette write the Rights of Man, which was the founding document of the French Revolution…. which we know led to The Terror and then to Napoleon and the Napoleonic War…. brutal stuff….

          2. To Terry Jansen:

            “But if Jesus is God and we deny that… then what God is being referenced in the Declaration of Independence…?… Just askin…”

            Would you please explain what Jesus meant when He said to Mary in John 20:17?:

            “…. I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

            Gracias,
            EN

        2. @ Andrés Tomás

          Let’s go with John Calvin on this one…

          Christ calls Him his God, in so far as, by taking upon him the form of a servant, he humbled himself, (Philippians 2:7.)

          This is, therefore, peculiar to his human nature, but is applied to his whole person, on account of the unity, because he is both God and Man. As to the second clause, in which he says that he ascends to his Father and our Father, 203 there is also a diversity between him and us; for he is the Son of God by nature, while we are the sons of God only by adoption; but the grace which we obtain through him is so firmly established, that it cannot be shaken by any efforts of the devil, so as to hinder us from always calling him our Father, who hath adopted us through his Only-begotten Son.

          1. T J,

            “Let’s go with John Calvin on this one…”

            Go with Calvin, as a Christian I follow Christ, not a fallen man’s opinion.

      1. Cindy, I would love to know how evangelicals square up the current Republican leadership with those words in a constitution. It seems they are operating on a totally different mindset

      2. “if you feel the need to concentrate on everything that is wrong in the USA, you should probably begin asking why it is that so many people try to come here every day.”
        This is a VERY oversimplified argument, and bases what’s right on what’s popular. Even scripture warns us against this.
        I could go into the role the US played in the political and economic collapse of various countries in South America (but we act “shocked” at the outcome of its people showing up on our doorstep, when it’s little more than “reaping what we sow”).
        But instead, I’ll ask this question, since so many conservatives and Christian nationalists get quite sensitive about this: What makes the USA above criticism?
        Aren’t you GLAD the USA was criticized for not living up to its own founding documents? Isn’t that was inspired some of the most important revolutions and movements in world history? Or was that when America was “great”: when entire populations were disenfranchised?
        MLK was doing more than just dreaming, he was criticizing.

  7. Marín:

    No country is above criticism. However, based on living all over the world, I can state unequivocally that the USA is the best there is, bar none.

    1. And I respect that opinion. I appreciate it is informed from your global experiences, but it is still an opinion. We can look at scores of Americans choosing to live and/or retire elsewhere: Cosa Rica, Panama, Colombia, Spain, Portugal, and even Mexico City are reporting scores of Americans establishing residency; these areas even have “Little America” neighborhoods now.
      Perhaps those Americans have a different opinion.

      But I’m glad to see that we can step away from any “you can’t/shouldn’t criticize the US” arguments.

      1. Hi Marin,

        Thanks for your respectful response. I find it very interesting that you mention “Little America” neighborhoods in other countries…Don’t you think that speaks to a certain love for America? Also, how many of those retiring Americans are originally from those countries you mention? I would venture to guess quite a few.

        1. I have no problem with “Little America.” It’s quite natural to group together with those who are from similar background – not to mention, it makes it easier to navigate when one isn’t fluent in the native language. I find it interesting that “Little America” = patriotism, but “Little Italy”, “Ukrainian Village” and “Chinatown” = refusal to assimilate. Can’t they just love their country, too?
          Most moving to other countries are white affluent Americans (which makes sense given the resources and timeline it takes to gain legal residency in the places I listed). So many began showing up in Mexico City from California during the pandemic that local Mexicans complained and accused them of hypocrisy. You can read about it in both local media (if you are fluent in Spanish) as well as in the LA Times and Wall Street Journal.
          There are also growing communities of Black Americans in Costa Rica, Panama, and Colombia; these also were recently featured in the NY Times and LA Times. I personally visited one outside of Quepos, Costa Rica (where I made friends with retired school teachers and nurses at a sunset gathering), and have friends in the process of relocating to Medellin, Colombia, and Panama City, Panama, as they become empty nesters.
          It’s very possible to be American, patriotic, AND love living in other countries. It’s not an either/or. I personally loved my time overseas; the world is a big, beautiful place.

  8. Hmmm. David Barton published a lengthy and detailed rebuttal of Throckmorton and other critics when this controversy arose years ago. Why did Bob Smietana fail to find it? It took me 30 seconds to google it.

    Those who keep track of Smietana know the answer, don’t we? He is largely a pusher of progressive spin, and eager to give a platform to fellow progressives like Throckmorton. Sad to see The Roys Report slavishly and uncritically publish such sloppy stuff.

    Here is Barton’s rebuttal, which Smietana somehow missed: https://wallbuilders.com/defending-jefferson-lies-david-barton-responds-conservative-critics/

    1. cris,
      I’m not a historian and Barton’s reply is long. However one thing jumped out at me immediately.

      After an explanation of his publication process, Barton begins his reply with long critiques of Throckmorton the person. No credible historian is going to start an academic reply with ad-hominem attacks on the political and social stances of their opponent.

      Why begin a scholarly reply with an emotional appeal to those on one political side to reject critique because of the supposed political leanings of the author. Barton seems to be going out of his way to be a conservative spokesman rather than a credible historian.

      It will be interesting to see if he can lean back into academic credibility and if the new edition will hold up against scholarly criticism.

      1. My point is: (1) Barton defended himself as a historian in a lengthy piece, and (2) Smietana/Roys attacked Barton in a hit piece which misleading said Barton isn’t bothering to defend himself.

        Am I wrong? No, I’m not. Those are facts. So where does that leave Smietana/Roys as trustworthy journalists? It leaves them exposed as hacks–sloppy at best, partisan and dishonest at worst.

        You can argue that Barton’s view of Jefferson is too generous. You can argue that his facts weren’t 100% clean. But that critique is made of many, many histories and historical biographies. After reading Barton’s defense I don’t think he’s different than most historians, and better than many who have been caught plagiarizing and fudging facts (Doris Kearns Godwin, for instance).

        What you cannot argue is that Smietana either incompetently or corruptly omitted–in fact, misrepresented–the key fact that Barton had long ago issued an extensive and detailed rebuttal.

        After all that, Barton’s inclusion of a critique of Throckmorton as a progressive egghead is small potatoes. Straining gnats and swallowing camels. Smietana’s hit piece is unChristian and a disgrace.

  9. Christians need to realize that that the US, along with all other nations, kingdoms, etc. throughout history are Babylon when it comes to God’s perspective. Now the US may be the most free, most-advanced, least-God hating Babylon in history, but that does not change the fact that it is still Babylon. The problem is that most American Christians don’t think they are travelers and exiles. They think they are in the promised land.

  10. R’as al Ghul,

    You are right, Mr. Ghul. As believers, we must all come to grips with the fact that we are just passing through this world. It is not our permanent home.

    That said, I would rather spend my time on earth here in the USA than anywhere else on the planet. As a woman, I am grateful to be granted the privilege of driving alone in my car to whatever destination I choose whenever I choose. I am grateful, as a Christian, to have the freedom to attend church on Sunday without the fear of being persecuted for my faith. I am thankful my government does not dictate my purchasing choices (YET!), does not tell me who I can speak to, and does not tell me to refrain from eating beef. I am thankful my family is not relegated to living in a Concentration Camp because our faith does not conform to the government-approved religion.

    I could go on listing all the wonderful freedoms we as Americans take for granted, but I won’t. I believe people are still yearning to be free, and that is why they are trying to get to this great land.

    And, when it comes to God’s perspective regarding nations, you should re-think your statements. God saved Nineveh from certain death during Jonah’s time despite their incredible sin. He does the same for everyone who believes in Jesus. Once changed, we are taken out of Babylon in God’s sight.

    1. cinthia-
      You speak as if everywhere outside of the US oppresses women, persecutes Christians, dictates personal choices, and puts people in concentration camps. It is very possible to have these same freedoms in PLENTY of BEAUTIFUL countries across the world. I had the same freedoms you mention in London, Paris, Johannesburg, Toronto, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Sydney and more….
      Let’s not perpetuate “the US is the only free nation” propaganda.
      The US is a wonderful country, yes; one doesn’t need to spread propaganda to support that.

      1. Marín,

        Nothing I said indicates other countries do not share similar values and “the US is the only free nation”. What gave you that idea? PLEASE try to refrain from adding what is not there and imposing your own views on what IS there.

        I was simply comparing my country to other countries, and, in my opinion, the USA ranks at the top when it comes to all kinds of measures. The countries you mention in your post share similar values with the USA, although Johannesburg (SA) is beginning to deteriorate due to government corruption.

        All western nations (UK, France, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Australia) tend to share similar values. Many base these values on the European Enlightenment and Judeo-Christian principles. And, whether others like it or not, Judeo-Christian principles are based on Biblical ones.

        1. What gave me that idea? It’s your own language. You state that your preference for living in the US versus “anywhere else on the planet” is because “as a woman you can drive alone wherever you choose, you can attend church where you like, etc.”
          Um…there are other places on the planet where you can have those things. So unless you intended to imply that there aren’t, perhaps there is more to your view.
          Nothing wrong with your view or having a preference; just stating that’s how it reads.

          1. Marín:

            Your words:

            “You state that your preference for living in the US versus “anywhere else on the planet” is because “as a woman you can drive alone wherever you choose, you can attend church where you like, etc.”

            Marin, read what I wrote again. Where did I state I prefer to live in the US versus anywhere else on the planet because of privileges? I stated I am grateful for the privileges, that is all.
            In a later post, I also acknowledged that other Western nations share similar values with the USA and have similar rights based on our shared Judeo-Christian foundation.

      2. Marín,

        I concur.

        New Zealand was the first self-governing country in the world in which all women had the right to vote in parliamentary elections in 1893. However, Finland was the first country in the world to give all women and all men both the right to vote and the right to run for office in 1906.

  11. Dr. Norbeck, with all due respect, I have to say your post come across as very arrogant. Having travelled and lived in several foreign countries myself, I have met many proud people who love their Country and would rather not live anywhere else. Especially, with the way the United States has looked globally over the past few years.

    On a recent trip to the Dominican Republic I was talking to a local business owner and he asked, “with all the political turmoil, your gun violence and the public crime rate in your major cities how do you feel safe living in your country?” I was taken back by his question and wasn’t sure on how to answer him at first. He and I talked for a couple hours and we shared our worries about our Countries. At the end of our conversation we came to an agreement, while both Countries have their unique issues and problems both of us agreed we loved where we were from and loved to live there.

    Not everyone sees America as the “greatest” and not everyone is trying to get here.

  12. danny,

    It’s called “patriotism.” I would imagine many Gazans love their country, too. We all tend to love where we are from, regardless of our country’s faults.

    That said, I was simply sharing my opinion. You can have a different opinion and I will respect that. Others can have a different opinion, too, and I will respect their opinion. Of course not everyone sees America as the “greatest.” That does not alter my opinion or the fact that millions try to come here.

    What is your opinion when it comes to our immigration problem here in the USA? Why do you think people want to live here in the USA rather than in their own country?

    1. In the opening of the TV series News Room, the main character is asked what makes America the greatest country in the world, and his response is incredible- but specifically names that we lead the world in only three things- incarcerated persons per capita, people who believe in angels, and defense spending. Before this he names a number of categories (literacy, obesity, maternal health) that America is behind other countries in. (it’s a great monologue).

      All of that to say, you can believe that America is the best country to live in, but objectively, based on the facts, you’d be wrong.

      1. Jen,

        I am guessing your background precludes the ability to look at the USA in any objective way. Using the opening of a TV series as evidence that our country is not the leader of the world on many fronts (science, higher education, medicine, etc.) is not something I can respect. Perhaps you should take a look at the patents we hold as a nation…

        1. And you will find that over the past decade or so, more patent applications were filled in China annually than in the US. You will also find that from 1990 to 2016, foreign-born inventor comprised 16% of inventors, but were behind 23% of the US patents issued over these years. But then those Christian nationalists, nativists, and MAGA supporters don’t want to hear that.

          So perhaps you should look at another metric.

  13. R’as al Ghul,

    In order to be a great scientist, you have to challenge and question authority and orthodoxy. The Chinese culture values conformity over individuality. This is not conducive to scientific breakthroughs. To illustrate, consider their Olympic Games pageant where individuals were used as pixels!

    I am guessing a large portion of the patents filed in China over the past 3 years have been for something related to Artificial Intelligence, am I right?

    Not impressive. Coming up with novel drugs is impressive. Further, there’s a whole lot of IP theft going on in China. So, please, come up with some kind of other metric to make your point that the USA is not a superior nation. If you can’t, I rest my case.

    1. I love it how dismiss some types of patents over others simply because you are not impressed. One could argue that most of the patents issued throughout history are not impressive. Second, you are wrong about AI being most of the patents. For example, China in 2020 issued more patents in biotechnology and in electrical machinery, apparatus, and energy than the US. Also, a lot of the US patents are in AI, so if you dismiss AI patents from China to be intellectually honest you will say all the US patents for AI are also not impressive. I rest my case.

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