Escaping IFB Abuse And Lies

SPEAKERS

PASTOR BOBBY LEONARD, JOHN MACARTHUR, RYAN GEORGE, Julie Roys, JACK HYLES

Julie Roys  00:00

The following podcast contains clips from some pastors in the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, or IFB, who shamed women and rape victims in their sermons. We chose these clips to illustrate the systemic problems in IFB churches. But we realize these clips are hard to hear, so please take care as you listen.  For more background on these and other stories please visit JulieRoys.com.

Research shows that more than 95-percent of women who report being raped are telling the truth. But in some churches, especially IFB churches, these women are disbelieved and shamed. According to Ryan George, it’s all part of the IFB propaganda machine meant to consolidate and maintain power.

Welcome to The Roys Report—a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys.

And in part two of an eye-opening podcast with Ryan George—the son of an IFB pastor—Ryan exposes the misogynist propaganda in IFB churches. And in this podcast, you’ll hear some shocking examples of this misogyny.

But as Ryan explains, there’s also promotion of violence within IFB churches, especially when it’s directed towards those seen as political foes.

This is no-holds-barred, stunning podcast, exposing the ugly truth about the IFB Church—a group Ryan confidently asserts is a cult. You’ll also hear a clip from John MacArthur, where the famous preacher sounds an awful lot like an IFB pastor.

But this podcast also has a wonderfully redemptive story, as Ryan tells how he escaped the IFB and overcame fear.

I love Ryan’s story—and I think you will too. We’ll get to that in a minute. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast—Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington . . .

Well again, here’s part 2 of my podcast with Ryan George, author of Hurt and Healed in the Church. . .

So there’s a whole section of your book that deals with propaganda. And you know, as a journalist, as somebody who’s in media, I mean, that’s something that always sort of piques my curiosity when I see something like that, but it’s really this idea of how the IFB was able to sell certain ideas to you. And extra biblical ideas that really weren’t necessarily in Scripture. And one of them that was just so heartbreaking to me because I work with female victims all the time of sexual abuse, and was that this idea, you actually heard this in college? Just stunning to me, that a woman if she’s raped, she would only get pregnant if she’s somehow enjoying it. And so it was kind of her fault if she gets pregnant. I mean, just despicable. absolutely shocking that anyone would say that. Yeah, just absolutely despicable. And, you know, I’m very pro-life in my convictions, but the thought that somebody would try to treat a rape victim who got pregnant that way is just heartbreaking, heartbreaking. But we know, these really misogynist ideas are woven into so many of these fundamentalist churches. And you mentioned in your book, that Jack Hyles, who if you don’t know Jack Hyles was really a main figure within the IFB movement. He had this church in Hammond, Indiana, First Baptist of Hammond, I think, huge mega church. I think at one point, they said they had like 40,000 people coming. I know he would bus people.

RYAN GEORGE  01:42

He had 86 buses at the peak of their ministry, running a bus route. I mean, that’s a big metro area city bus ministry.

Julie Roys  01:49

Yeah, Absolutely, absolutely huge. Anyway, you had this clip, and it was so awful, I like had to look it up in your footnotes and be like, is this online? And so the journalist in me, like has to find it, right. So actually I was able to do it, I was able to find this clip. And just so people realize, I also looked up, like what was the context? Because he says, who slew all of these? when he’s speaking and really what he’s talking about, I looked up that phrase, it’s actually from II Kings 10, and it refers to Jehu, who is basically meeting out God’s judgment to the wicked king Ahab, and also Jezabell two of the most wicked kings Israel ever had. And there are actually, you know, these men of the city, who slew who slay the 70 sons of Ahab. And it’s a pretty graphic description in the Old Testament where they actually bring the heads of all of these sons, and they put them at the gate. And it’s like the judgment of God being meted out in just, you know, a horrific way. But then again, what Jezebel and Ahab did during their reign was pretty horrific as well. But Jehu comes and he looks, you know, in front of the people, he’s looking at this this pile, and he says, who slew all of these? And so in this clip, Hyles is actually likening these wicked men who were beheaded, to the people he’s describing, and it’s absolutely breathtaking, because these people are women, who, God forbid, didn’t dress in the way that he thinks is appropriate. So take a listen.

JACK HYLES  03:47

Who slew all of the women in shorts? Who slew all of these poor kids that are girls pregnant before they married? caused the boys to get so stirred up passionately that they rape a girl. Brother, you listen to me. For every single man that goes to prison for rape, you ought to be right beside him, a half-naked girl in the next cell. Who slew all these people on beaches? Who slew all these churches to have mixed swimming parties?

Julie Roys  04:31

Unbelievable.

RYAN GEORGE  04:32

And if you notice in the background of any video, or background of that video, it’s all women except for one guy and they’re smiling.

Julie Roys  04:41

Some are some are not. I mean, some are smiling. Some are not. And I just know you know from reading your book, and from the research that I’ve done, I mean, there’s a lot of sexual abuse going on behind the scenes. I just have to wonder how many of these women are standing there hearing this, and they’ve been sexually abused, and now they’re hearing, it’s your fault that this happened to you. Which, interestingly, Jack Hyles’ son, David, he’s been accused by several women of raping them. In fact, I did a podcast about four years ago with a woman who claimed she was raped by Jack Hyles son David Hyles. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes. That’s I mean, if you want to explore this a little bit more that was a really powerful podcast. Amazing woman what she’s been through.,

RYAN GEORGE  05:36

Oh, yes.

Julie Roys  05:38

But also, there’s the son-in-law of Jack Hyles, who, you know, he’s been convicted of taking what a 16-year-old across state lines and raping her. Interestingly, when he was caught in his crime, he did eventually admit, I guess that  he had raped her. But then he blamed it on the teen’s aggressiveness, on her aggressiveness. I mean, this is so just baked into the whip and woof of this culture, that it’s the woman’s fault. And you might think, well, you know, Jack Hyles, died in 2001. So this is like the IFB of many decades ago. And, unfortunately, it’s not. In fact, I found a clip, and this was just like, last month on the internet, and it was a recording that it had been from, I think, August of last year, last September, but it finally made its round. Yeah. On the internet. And it was of a pastor in North Carolina, Pastor Bobby Leonard, at this Bible Baptist Tabernacle in Monroe, North Carolina. And this, I mean, every bit as awful as what you just heard from Jack Hyles. Let me play this because, again, this happened within the past year.

PASTOR BOBBY LEONARD  07:01

I used to say this. I haven’t said this a long time. You ready? I said, if you dress like that, and you get raped, and I’m on the jury, he’s will go free. You don’t like it, do you? I’m right though. I’m right. Because a man’s a man.

Julie Roys  07:22

Hhmm. A man’s a man.

RYAN GEORGE  07:25

We define manhood very differently.

Julie Roys  07:27

Yeah, right. I mean, that was unbelievable. And I pointed out and I think I put a Tweet out there saying or a post on X, I guess I have to say, that, yeah, he’s a man. He’s not an animal. And one of the features of a man is he’s able to exercise self-control. So if a woman’s in shorts, no, that doesn’t give you a license to rape her. And that video went viral. And there were protests there. And I don’t know if they’re still ongoing. I know, several weeks after this video went viral,  those protests were still going. But you know, I looked before we recorded this podcast, and this Bobby Leonard is still pastor at this IFB church.

RYAN GEORGE  08:09

Same church.

Julie Roys  08:10

Yep. The thing that kills me about this is that this man is a pastor, and he’s espousing something again. So the antithesis of what Jesus would. I mean, his heart broke for victims. His heart was absolutely. So I mean, the only people he was hard on was religious hypocrites. That’s the only people he was hard on,  but people caught in sin, people victimized, those are the people Jesus’ heart broke for.

RYAN GEORGE  08:39

There’s a chance that when that woman who was pulled out from underneath her adultery partner, when they brought him to Jesus, brought her to Jesus to stone her, there’s a really good chance that she was naked standing there next to Jesus.

Julie Roys  08:49

Oh, I thought you were gonna say that she was a victim. But I’d never thought of that.

RYAN GEORGE  08:53

I don’t know. She definitely she could have been a victim. Right? But even if it was consensual, they didn’t draw her adultery partner out. Right? They didn’t try to stone him.

Julie Roys  09:02

No, no, not a man. No.

RYAN GEORGE  09:04

No, right, right. They pulled her out as if she was the problem which is an IFB thing. And then so if that’s the case, they said, we put her in the act. So, there’s very likely that a pastor like this, a group of Pharisees, pulled this woman out into public, set her next to Jesus and Jesus didn’t look at her, he wrote in the dirt. And then when all the accusers went away, say, Hey, where are your accusers? Neither do I condemn you. Now go and sin no more. That’s like you’re saying antithetical to what is the messaging in that video, and many of the churches that I grew up in.

Julie Roys  09:40

There’s so many components that you discuss, and we don’t have time to go through them all. I wish we could. But one of them I was like, we have to talk about this because Christian nationalism has become so big. And especially right now, in an election year, we’re hearing In a lot of it. I didn’t realize how IFB  churches supported Christian nationalism and tried to kind of do it biblically like having a biblical basis. Would you describe that?

RYAN GEORGE  10:14

Well, it’s baked into the idea that if we can’t winsomely attract people to Jesus, right? Their churches don’t even try to winsomely attract people. I tell a story in the book about my parents church had a raffle that you could win a shotgun if you brought people to church. Yeah. Because like, that’s the only way, they knew that the message that they had to sell wasn’t going to be popular, right? And so what they look at is well, then just like as they do in the churches, can we go by force? Right. And so, when you hear fundamentalists talk about politics, they’re talking about overtaking and taking control. Like you hear these kinds of authoritarian terms, to say, we are trying to take our culture by storm, we’re going to try to take it back. That’s not exclusive to IFB. But you wouldn’t think that this very seclusionary cult would try to be mainstream in that way. But I mean, we had polling places on our campus. The college I went to is the home district for Matt Gates, who is also accused of multiple sexual crimes against minors. And they would brag that, you know, they would get students to change their voting district to college so that we could vote in Florida elections, and our college bragged that we put Bush in the White House. Because if you count how many votes were cast by our students in that district, that was enough to put Bush over the top, I voted for Bush, this isn’t a political thing. But the idea is that they were trying to take it by any ways necessary, which definitely falls into this whole Trumpism thing now because they’re like, that’s our Savior. He’s gonna force it. He’s talking about retribution. He’s talking about making people pay, making people cry. You know. So it makes sense if you have an authoritarian church and authoritarian pastor that you’d be drawn to political authoritarians.

Julie Roys  12:05

And wasn’t there something too about like when the passage about the separation of the sheep from the goats and that certain nations, I’ve never heard this before, that God will separate certain nations, like separating the sheep from the goats, almost like if you’re not in the Christian nation, you’re not going to make it in?

RYAN GEORGE  12:26

Yeah, it’s a weird double jeopardy situation. And they’re like, Hey, we have to win America back to God because of this passage. And part of it is because if you only believe that the King James version is the only version you can read, and if you only believe that there are pastors out there, I have a few pastors that say that the English version of the Bible is more inspired than the original. Like, I mean, it’s all over you can find on the internet. If you follow, there’s an Instagram account, I highly recommend called At Bad Sermons. Bad Sermons has a whole bunch of this stuff.

Julie Roys  12:55

I think that’s where that clip, actually yeah, of Pastor Monroe first came out, yeah,

RYAN GEORGE  13:01

Oh, my gosh. And so what happens is they go, well, then that means if A plus B equals C, then we have to win America to Christ, so that, and they don’t mean that they have to save America. They’re not trying to save Americans. They’re trying to save their version, which is, again, a messed-up version of America for this thing. But that doesn’t make sense. So as I’m writing that chapter in my book, I’m in Slovenia, which I was in northern Slovenia, I was about 5-10 miles from the Italy border. And if you’ve ever looked at that part of the map, Slovenia has been part of like, 12, where I was sitting in that library has been part of like, 12 different countries in the last 400 years. Like, so at what point does Jesus pick your country? Is it 1787? Is it 2004? Is it 1999? Was it when it was in the Soviet bloc? Is it now that it’s not? It’s like, you know, was it when it was part of this country or that? Like, there’s so little intellectual rigor applied to anything. And when you do try to apply any type of academic anything, you’re saying, Oh, you’re a liberal, you don’t have faith, you know, all this stuff. Like you have to take the man of God’s word for this. And so you have IFB pastors after Joe Biden was elected, getting up and saying, Hey, I don’t know if you know if this is right, but I’m not going to get in the way of God if his will is to assassinate Joe Biden, from the pulpit. Wow. And you go, wait, what? Like, where did Jesus ever call us to assassinate our enemy? When Peter cut the guards year off, Jesus healed the guard and then said to Peter, like, what are you doing, man? Like, this isn’t how we do this.

Julie Roys  14:37

Ah, that is so I am speechless. That is so so awful. Wow. Well, there’s something else that stuck out to me, probably because this is in the news right now. And you’ve got a chapter called, Misrepresenting Orthodoxy, and you talk about these IFB preachers who will condemn certain groups or certain groups of people in sort of this selective self-righteousness. And you talk about your father, who again, this is a man who was a pedophile. I mean, he molested girls who are not even of age. And yet, he said he would condemn Martin Luther King Jr., because he supposedly was a philanderer and, you know, had relations with women outside of marriage. At least, you know, in that case, you know, I don’t know, but I’m guessing they were consensual. Which was not the case with your father. But you write, I thought  this was a great paragraph. You write, While that irony plays out. Let me just read this here. While that irony plays out on a micro level of my family, I can’t escape the more macro irony of my dad’s disregard for Dr. King. In the unsaved churches of my youth, beliefs were an idol and hypocrisy was defended as a way to protect the gospel. Dogmatism took precedence over following the example of Jesus. Doctrine was more important than authenticity, curiosity, or compassion. And you’re probably aware, right now, there’s a big brouhaha over some things that John MacArthur has said, about Martin Luther King, Jr. In fact, I’m just gonna play that. So if people haven’t heard that, they can hear what he said. I’ll just play it.

JOHN MACARTHUR  16:41

The T for G (Together for the Gospel) guys wanted to honor him with a panel, and we spent an hour, an hour and 15 minutes. And it was just beautiful tributes to RC from all of us, who knew him so very, very well. And the strange irony was a year later, they did the same thing for Martin Luther King, who was not a Christian at all, whose life was immoral. I’m not saying he didn’t do some social good. And I’ve always been glad that he was a pacifist, or he could have started a real revolution. But you don’t honor a non-believer who misrepresented everything about Christ and the gospel, in an organization alongside honoring somebody like RC Sproul.

Julie Roys  17:36

So how does that hit you?

RYAN GEORGE  17:39

So I see it again as a hypocrite, you know. John MacArthur has covered for multiple child molesters in his church. And I go, here’s the irony is you’re going to prop up people in your own church who are doing way worse than what Dr. Martin Luther King is and say that they are examples of the faith. Like this is why we keep them in our church, right? And then say somebody who had some affairs, which we’re not condoning affairs, that it wipes out everything they did, including  whether or not they’re going to heaven. That’s the mental gymnastics that the  IFB church has to do to feel self-righteous.

Julie Roys  18:16

And missing, that one of the greatest sins that God calls out is pride. I mean when I hear things like that, I’m like, wow! I mean, I could talk about Dr. Martin Luther King’s doctrine, and there may be some really bad things in there. And I’m not saying that you can’t talk about that. But to say that you, a mere human, who doesn’t know the hearts of man, can say where the eternal destiny of someone else is. That crosses a line to me.

RYAN GEORGE  18:46

It’s hubris.

Julie Roys  18:48

Absolutely.

RYAN GEORGE  18:49

And the irony is Dr. Martin Luther King was a Baptist pastor in the south, which means it was probably conservative to some degree, as far as theologically conservative church. They were probably closer than MacArthur would like to admit.

Julie Roys  19:02

Yeah. Well, the last section of your book is beautiful. And it talks about.

RYAN GEORGE  19:08

Oh, thank you.

Julie Roys  19:08

Yeah, it talks about the greener pastures that are available. You know, there to get beyond the abuse, and the dogmatism, you know, that these things don’t have to define you and define the rest of your life. I think that’s hugely important. But at the same time, moving forward and choosing, you know, the better path, to choose growth over comfort, can be, it’s a risky thing to do. But it’s the path you chose, and maybe the path less traveled. But why would you like to the person who right now is just kind of sitting there going, You know, dare I do that? What would you say?

RYAN GEORGE  19:54

I’d tell him, it’s worth it. So I’m a little predisposed to this. So, I’m an adrenaline junkie, I jump off mountains and planes and buildings. I’ve surfed in the Arctic. I do all kinds of crazy things.

Julie Roys  20:06

You surfed in the Arctic?

RYAN GEORGE  20:08

Yes, ma’am. I’ve camped in both the Arctic Circle and Antarctica. I do a thing called wing-walking, where you go out on the wings of a bi-plane while it’s flying, and it does aerobatic maneuvers while you’re out there.

Julie Roys  20:16

No, no, no, no, no, no.

RYAN GEORGE  20:18

But here’s what I’ve learned in that. And this is how God designed our bodies with dopamine and epinephrine and other reward chemicals, is that when we do this scary thing, we are chemically rewarded, right? And the times when I felt most alive in my life, outside of a faith community in a relationship, but like physically when I felt most alive, was after I conquered a fear. I was so scared to go wing walking the first time. I finally found a life insurance company to give me life insurance cuz you can imagine it’s hard to insure some of the stuff that I do for fun. And I got back down on the ground after my first, you take lessons, and you get like certified for different things you do out on the wings. And I got back down on the ground and my classmates had waited, I was the last student through the school that day. And one of my classmates yelled out, how was it? And I’m taking off, you know, your gear whatever, I was like, I’ve never felt more alive, right. And so what I’d like to tell people is, it’s that way for me and my faith. When I’ve had a conversation around a fire with somebody, or when I saw someone meet Jesus for the first time or put their marriage back together. Or I have a friend who has six foster and adopted children?, and to watch the reclamation project of what he and his wife are doing right? And different things in my life. I’ve seen Jesus do incredible things. And I have goosebumps right now all over my body, thinking about what I’ve seen is like, that is what life in all caps is. And I’ve experienced it. So my last book was called Scared to Life. And it was about I felt God the most when I’m scared. And so what I’m able to do because it’s become normal for me, I’m scared of heights. People are amazed. I’ve jumped off the 63rd story of a building before, but I’m scared of heights. But what I’ve learned is, is that when I lean into that fear, the reward is at least equal to whatever I was afraid of. And I found that to be true in my faith. You can’t convince them. It’s like trying to convince a seven-year-old that someday they’re going to like kissing girls. Trust me dude, I’m telling you, it’s the same thing. People are like, You’re so crazy, I would never go out on the wings of an airplane. It’s like, but have you ever been upside down at 140 miles an hour looking at the California desert? I can’t explain it right? It’s the same thing. There are things in my faith. I’ve had these encounters with Jesus that’s sweeter than anything I’ve ever had with my parents, anything I’ve ever had in churches growing up, that cannot be explained outside of Jesus. And I want that for you. I won’t ever force someone to jump out of a plane with me or do some of the stuff that I do. But I will invite over and over and over again because I know what’s waiting for them on the other side. And then you go, Okay, you just did something that 99% of humans in America would say you are legitimately crazy to try, and you feel more alive. What is something back home that you’re scared to do? A conversation you’re scared to have, a thing you’re scared to relinquish to Jesus, an addiction you’re scared to tell somebody about whatever it is. That Invitational model has proven true in my life over and over again.

Julie Roys  23:16

I mean, it makes me think of when I was about to blow the whistle on the Moody Bible Institute. And I had this piece written, and I won’t go into the whole story of how that went down. But I was terrified because I knew that would burn my bridge forever. Not just with Moody. But you get blacklisted. And that would be the end of my career. And I was okay with that. But it was still scary. And yet, I mean, yes. Did I feel alive when I did that? And then on the heels of that, that’s why I’m doing what I’m doing today. God birthed this out of that, and had I not followed through  on that conviction God gave me, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t be here, you know. And so, to me, I feel like I’m living the adventure. You know. I think life in Christ should be living the adventure. And it will always, always, I think we’ve forgotten about this.

RYAN GEORGE  24:14

Jesus hinted at it. So they didn’t have the terms that we have now in the New Testament to describe biology and whatever else. But over and over and over from Jesus and other people Old Testament New Testament. The Bible says the just shall live by faith. But what a lot of people don’t reverse engineer that to go it’s you can’t have faith unless you have doubt, fear, both, right? I’m only scared on the wing of an airplane if I don’t think my harness is going to work or there’s going to be a malfunction in the plane. When you’ve done it 100 times, the 100th time I rode a motorcycle, it wasn’t as scary as the first time right? The first time you ride a roller coaster you’re holding on white knuckles. By the fifth time you’re posing for the picture. You’re physically doing the same thing. But you’ve lost that fear. And so, for us to live by faith on a regular basis, there has to be something that brings doubt or fear into our life. It sounds masochistic and I don’t mean it that way. But if Jesus isn’t given me an assignment on a regular basis that makes my palms sweaty, then I have to ask myself, do I have faith right now? Am I living the just life?

Julie Roys  25:11

Absolutely. And that’s why I think we’ve forgotten that to be a moral person, to be a godly person, it actually requires courage. Like, you just don’t hear that very much. We think of it as you have to be pure in your thoughts and your life and all those things are true. But you have to have courage, because God will call you to something that requires faith and like you’re saying, it requires facing your fear. And I’m thinking right now because this is where your book lands. But I know this is where an awful lot of people are. Is some of the scariest things to do, are to pursue your own healing. Because it means instead of running away from what was painful, you actually have to lean into it, you actually have to go places that you don’t want to go. And yet, that’s something that you did. And I feel like you’re kind of not that any of us is on the other side. Because healing is a process that we won’t fully be healed till we’re in heaven, right? You know, so. But you’re kind of on the other side, where you’ve walked through some stuff and been able to say, hey, you can trust this process. So speak to that person right now who may be in that spot.

RYAN GEORGE  26:25

Oh, man. The hard part is all of our journeys are nuanced, right? So I’m not calling someone and telling them, Hey, go back to the church where you came from, or go back to the religion that you came from, or even go back to a church as is commonly defined United States, like a Sunday service, or whatever else. What I am calling people to do is to find a version of Jesus they can fall in love with. And I was talking to a podcaster a few weeks ago, and she gave me this great analogy, and I got to use it. But she said, there are a lot of people who go to a Taylor Swift concert alone, but nobody goes home alone. They come home with friendship bracelets, and new friends and new Instagram connections and whatever else. And I said, for me, the Taylor Swift in that story is Jesus. And if I find that Jesus, that I’m a big fan of which I have found, and if I go to the concert, I’m going to bump into other people who love the same Jesus. And we’re going to trade friendship bracelets, and we’re going to start. So whether that spiritual community is a service, or whether it’s just meeting someone for coffee, there are certain people that I know, the first version of Jesus they can find is to go to therapy, and to be real. And what happens is, after you get used to telling your story in that room, then you get more courage to tell people outside of that room, et cetera. And so church can grow for you. But my book is not a call to go back on a Sunday. My call is to fall in love with the Jesus that I’ve fallen in love with, because it’s been utterly rewarding. And if you can look at it as a personal relationship, I know that that terminology has been used and abused in the faith that I grew up in. But as a note, this isn’t like me and the church. This is me and Jesus, and know that Jesus, everywhere he went, other people were attracted around that were fans of his hand up to 1000s of people. So no matter whether you define church as a house church, or, you know, multisite, non-denom, whatever. All of it is trappings; find the Jesus that loves you. And he promised, in his own words, read letters to the Bible. He said, If you seek me, and you seek with your whole heart, you will find me. And we’re on this divine scavenger hunt to find him everywhere and anywhere. And when you start intentionally looking for him. Like before, before I go on a hike, you’ll get this because you’re a hiker. Before I go on a hike in new places like God, will you reveal why you drew me to this trail? God, will you reveal what it is you want me to know about yourself today? And I can tell you how that prayers were answered hiking in the Faroe Islands and Iceland and Norway. I still remember how Jesus answered those prayers. I have prayed that prayer before getting on a flight at JFK. God, would you reveal why it is I’m getting on this plane? What do you want me to know about getting on this plane? And that led to a very emotional blog post and people are like, Oh, my goodness, you met Jesus on a flight to Finland? Like how does that even work? And if we’re expectant to find the real Jesus, why wouldn’t he want to reveal himself? Jesus gave up his life so that we could know him. So when we asked him, Jesus help me know you more, helped me find the real you, why wouldn’t he answer that prayer?

Julie Roys  28:45

I love that. I love that. And it is the real Jesus. And unfortunately, he has not been portrayed to some of us as his true self. And it’s important that we find that. Ryan, this has been such a phenomenal conversation. I’ve so enjoyed it. Yeah, just so glad to have this conversation and for the gift of your book. And I know it takes a lot to write a book and especially one this personal. So thank you so much, and it’s just been a delight.

RYAN GEORGE  29:45

Thanks for sharing me with your people.