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Reporting the Truth.
Restoring the Church.

What’s the Truth about John MacArthur & His Ministries?

The Roys Report
The Roys Report
What’s the Truth about John MacArthur & His Ministries?

What’s the truth about John MacArthur, his ministries, and the Master’s University and Seminary?

On this episode of The Roys Report, a former vice president at John MacArthur’s seminary reveals stunning details about the culture of fear, nepotism, and celebrity surrounding the famous pastor.

From 1991—2015, Dennis Swanson worked at The Master’s University and Seminary (TMUS)—first as the director innovation and then as the vice president of operations, the library, and accreditation. 

Swanson worked with MacArthur’s son-in-law, Kory Welch, who’s been paid millions in contracts by MacArthur’s ministries. Swanson says Welch was barely competent. 

Swanson also was involved in the writing and editing of the John MacArthur Study Bible, which he says John MacArthur didn’t write. Swanson also wrote a chapter in John MacArthur’s book on counseling. Yet Swanson’s name doesn’t appear anywhere in the book. 

But that’s the tip of the iceberg of what Swanson saw and experienced. He says a woman he supervised lost her job simply because she was a woman. Swanson says he lost his job simply because he and other administrators were successful in making The Master’s Seminary less about MacArthur and more about a quality education.

This is an insightful conversation and extremely relevant to the issues recently raised about MacArthur and his leadership.

This Weeks Guests

Dr. Dennis M. Swanson

Dr. Dennis M. Swanson, until recently was the Dean of Libraries at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke. Formerly was the VP of The Master’s Seminary Library, Accreditation, and Operations for 24 years. He also oversaw the production of The Master’s Seminary Journal and The Master’s Mantle. An experienced writer and editor, besides many journal articles, he was a contributor to the Eerdman’s Bible Dictionary, edited by David Noel Freedman. He also was a pastor, and a regular interim pastor, working in 20 different churches. His doctoral project was “Titus: A Model for the Interim Pastoral Ministry.”  Before entering  an officer with the Los Angeles Police Department and a senior traffic accident investigator.  He holds degrees from The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, San Jose State University, The Master’s Seminary, The Master’s College, and El Camino College.


What’s really going on with John MacArthur, his ministries, and the Master’s University and Seminary? Today, a former high ranking administrator at the Master’s Seminary gives us an inside look. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Dennis Swanson, former Vice President at John MacArthur’s Master’s Seminary. For more than 20 years, Dennis worked as an administrator there and during his time, he oversaw operations, the library and accreditation. He also was involved in editing the John MacArthur Study Bible, which he says John MacArthur didn’t write. He also wrote a chapter in John MacArthur’s book on counseling. Yet Dennis’s name doesn’t appear anywhere in the book. But that’s the tip of the iceberg of what Dennis saw and experienced. He says a woman he supervised lost her job simply because she was a woman. He says he lost his job because he and other administrators were successful in making the Master’s Seminary less about MacArthur and more about a quality education. Dan is also has insight into the alleged 40 hours a week the MacArthur claims he worked at the school for many years. And Dennis says the culture of fear and intimidation reported by the accrediting body that put the Master’s University and Seminary on probation is real. This is going to be an eye opening interview and I’m so excited to dive into these topics with Dennis. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. Judson is a top ranked Christian university providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Plus the school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Judson University is shaping lives that shape the world. For more information, just go to Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to buyacar123. com. Well, again, joining me is Dennis Swanson, an education administrator and former Vice President at the Master’s Seminary. For more than two decades, Dennis worked at both the Seminary and the Master’s University. He started as Director of Innovation. Then he became the librarian, and then the director of accreditation, and finally the Vice President of Operations, Library and Accreditation. So Dennis has seen a lot over the years. And I’m so pleased to have him in studio with me today. Dennis, welcome! And thanks so much for joining me.

Thank you glad to be here.

And you’re in studio, you’re not usually in the Chicago area. What brings you here?

I’m exploring some job opportunities., and I think I may be relocating to this area. And I love Chicago, so I could walk around and take pictures all day.

Well, welcome to the Chicago area. If you end up in this area, it will be fun to have you here. But again, we’ve talked quite a bit over the past year about your experience with John MacArthur with the Master’s University and Seminary. And again, you were there for over two decades. So you must have, in the early days and 1990s, early 2000s enjoyed being there. Tell me what it was like in those early days.

My first year, year and a half was at the college. Back then it wasn’t the university. That’s a later invention. But I worked with a guy named Doug Bookman, and we worked on innovation, ideas, and so anything to make the school better, to make the programs better, to come up with new ideas. That’s kind of what we explored. And at the same time, it gave me an opportunity to teach once in a while, which I always enjoyed doing. And then I was approached by Dr. Dick Mayhue, who is the dean at the Seminary and asked if I would like to come back to the Seminary. I had graduated from the Seminary and come and be the librarian. It was busy for the first year because I had to actually get a degree in library work. So I enrolled at San Jose State University. And I finished another master’s degree in two semesters. And then Dr. Mayhue again asked if I would help with accreditation, I said, sure, give it a try.

And that’s been a big deal. Accreditation.

Accreditation is a huge deal. And WASC, which is the Western Association of Schools and Colleges, was our regional accreditor. And they had just started a new program called Assessment Leadership Academy for leaders. And so I was in the first group of that with about 12 other people in the region.

We’re going to talk more about accreditation. So let’s let’s table that discussion, because you left in 2015. In 2018, was when WASC put the Master’s University and Seminary on probation. So part of the reason we’re talking is because John MacArthur is in the news right now. And I have done some reporting on him. And, and so there’s a lot of people asking what’s really going on at the Master’s University and Seminary, what’s really going on at Grace Community Church, at Grace To You, with John MacArthur? So let me just ask you, what was it like working with John MacArthur? And you know, what kind of President was he because he was the president of the Seminary, when when you were there?

John wasn’t so much for us day to day, we didn’t see him a lot. John was, you’re always wondering, you know, when he when he would come in, it would be kind of like a whirlwind, you know, and what was he going to do today? And what was going to happen? And you kind of just held your breath until he came and left.

You told me at one point, when we were talking that you literally would go months, and wouldn’t see John.

Oh! You could go months without seeing him. You’d see him it, you know, some events and certainly at graduation, but then, in terms of regular meetings with the faculty in 20 years, three or four.

And you said there was a annual retreat that the Seminary would do?

We would begin the year with a faculty retreat. Usually in the spring, we would have kind of end of the year dinner with everybody.

Okay, so he’s the president, was he there?

For the retreats, almost never. For the annual dinners, he might show up, but a lot of times didn’t show for those either. And it was always very busy with everything else, or traveling or doing whatever it is he was doing. But it wasn’t something he did very much.

Part of the reason I ask is that from 2006 through 2012, if you read the 990s, which are the IRS tax forms that they file every year, they claimed that MacArthur was working 40 hours a week from 2006 to 2012. For six years, supposedly, and this would have been six years you were there. It says he worked 40 hours a week at the Seminary.

Not possible, unless he counted working at home or or doing things, but in terms of being in the office, no, he was never there. He had a little room in the Seminary building. But it was just a place where he could have meetings. His main office was just you know, 50 yards away over at the church. But he didn’t even have an office in the building.

So as President, what was his role?

Raise money, when he would speak he would promote the school and do things like that. But in terms of an active administrative role, I would say he had virtually none.

One of the things that has raised some eyebrows is the fact that he takes three salaries at the Master’s University and Seminary. He was taking a salary there from $42,000 a year to $100k to $182,000 some years. Grace to You, he’s taking a salary of$ 174,000 to, you know, over $402,000, the one the one year that he got that King James Bible that I guess was worth more than $200,000 that Grace To You gifted him? Were you aware of him taking these multiple salaries at the time that you were there?

No idea.

Were you aware of like when he was at Grace Community Church was that is considered a full time job? As the other ones were part time.

He’d always say that he spent 40 hours a week on each message that he preached. After a while you take that with a grain of salt, but there’s only so many days in the week and hours, and he couldn’t be 40 hours a week at five different places or anything like that.

You know, I mentioned that in 2012, John MacArthur made as much as it was over $400,000, from Grace To You gave him this salary. But it was a little bit bigger that year because he got this $200,000 King James Bible. Now, the narrative that’s come out by Phil Johnson is that this Bible was given to MacArthur for you know, as an anniversary year. And we want to thank him for this. But he’s not a very good miser, because he turned around right away and gave it away to the Master’s University and Seminary. I’ve discovered that it doesn’t show up on the 990s till four years later, in 2016, is when there’s a gift of a historical artifact to the Seminary. Doesn’t look like he turned around and gave it away. But you know, something, in fact, you gave me he sent me a picture, which I’ll post, that shows that what was this 2012 is when you took that picture?


And at that point, what did that note say? And what does that say about the intention of John MacArthur with that Bible?

We created a room, kind of a museum of rare Bibles, and we had his Bible and I created little cards for them to talk about the Bible and what it was. His Bible is a Hebrew Bible, which is the rarer of the two. They said it was $200,000. I might quibble that that would not be a great assessment of that, in that year, but I had to put on the bottom of that card that “on loan from John MacArthur”. It wasn’t given to the school.

So you actually were told to put that note there.

Yes. That’s how they wanted it worded that this was on loan from Dr. MacArthur, his personal collection or whatever it was. That was still in place in 2015 when I left.


It was never given to the Seminary that that I was aware of. It if it when it was I guess it was ultimately given that was after I was gone.

Well, and it was also after 2014 when these bloggers started blogging about John MacArthur’s salary, and what how much Grace To You had paid him.


His lifestyle, did it raise any, any red flags at that point?

What raised the red flags was driving money to his son in law and his company. When I was running operations at the Seminary, I had to hire Corey Welch. I had to hire that his company to do something. But working with them was not an enjoyable experience. The end product wasn’t anything to get excited about. But you know, there’s certain things you didn’t have a choice about.

So let’s talk about Cory Welch. He is John MacArthur son in law, as you mentioned, he was a Grace To You employee in 2008, working for about $80,000 as an employee, as the director of the television broadcasting there. Then, in 2009, he started working as a video production contractor for Grace To You,Grace To You getting more than $740,000 per year for doing production of Grace To You. What he had been doing before, I’m not sure. I’ve heard from Phil Johnson, who’s the executive director of Grace To You, that, that it was cost efficient to have him move into that. But I mean, if you just look at the salary he was making, I mean, obviously, there were more costs than just his salary for production. But that’s a lot of money.

Yeah, well, it is. And he formed his own company, I guess, and Welch Productions, and then continued as a contractor doing what he had been getting paid to do before.

What year was this?

Early 2014. We remodeled the front lobby of the of the Seminary. He was contracted to make a video wall with big screen TVs and produce the slideshow, which ended up being a little more than a PowerPoint. I mean, I could have gotten any 20 college kids probably do the same thing. The annoying part for me was I continued hounding him basically, you know, give me the specs for the computer system, we need to run this thing. And he didn’t do it. I’ll get back to you. I’ll get back to you finally gave me the specs. Well, they were wrong. So I ended up with a very nice computer that wasn’t powerful enough to do what we needed to do. Had to go out and spend another, I couldn’t return it, ended up spending another 12 or $15,000 on the right system, which just drove the cost up for my budget, but didn’t affect what we paid him.

How much did you pay him?

I have no idea. That part of it was off of the budget.


So it was whatever he got paid, he got paid.

So your impression of Cory as the the quality of the work that he produced, because I mean, this has been a key point that Phil Johnson has made is, Hey, listen, he shouldn’t have a problem with us hiring Corey Welch because he does such outstanding work.

That’s not my experience. My experience was adequate work, rarely on time, and kind of slowed the whole process down more than anything. I was never impressed with his work.

So it’s interesting to me, because I just looked this up, because any kind of payments to say a son in law is considered related business transaction, should show up on the 990s. You’re telling me the Cory Welch did work in 2014. Belinda Welch did some work as well. And it doesn’t show up on the 990.

Their salaries and their contract was, part of it was handled, you know, Oh! we’ll take care of that. And it was done elsewhere.

Okay. So let’s talk about books. Because you were involved in a lot of the writing of these books that John MacArthur’s name is on. In fact, you told me one time that John MacArthur has never actually written a book in his life. Is that right?

That’s my opinion. Yeah, I know who the ghost writers are. And I know who wrote even the earliest books. He was a English professor. He was I can’t remember his name. He was a reformed Episcopal minister, but he wrote the early books, and they were sermons.

So they’re, they’re taking the sermons and sort of massaging them. You’re saying there’s no part of it that was John MacArthur?

And putting them into in some readable order. And that’s kind of when Phil Johnson came in. He did, he had been an editor, I think, at Moody Press. And then he came in to do the gospel according to Jesus and one thing led to another and he ghostwrote several books after that, and there’s another person right after that, who’s Nathan Buseness, who is the ghost writer, he wrote books out of whole cloth. I’m wasn’t there was no certain underlying sermon series behind it. Other than maybe him looking at it and saying, Yeah, that looks good.

You weren’t involved firsthand in those other books, but you were in the MacArthur Study Bible?

We got different sections assigned to us, different books of the Bible, and we create notes and then Dick Mayhue would edit them and put them together.? And then, I mean, the process was supposed to be then John carefully looked at each one and, you know, changed the wording to and that was not what I saw.

What did you see?

I saw him appear every other week or so for half hour, 45 minutes in this little room where Dick had taken a little conference room and created the whole, where the study bible is produced. The study Bible, in my view, was 80% Dick Mayhue taking the stuff that the Seminary had created, re-editing it and John doing something. But I mean, the idea that he looked at every single note and rechecked them all I rather doubt that happened.

Is it unusual though, in the publishing business?

I guess, for big name authors and things like that, it might not be unusual. I question it ethically, at a certain level. If everyone thinks you did this, and you really didn’t, and you don’t really do anything to dissuade people of that fact. I mean, it took a lot of work. And you can’t write a note on every single verse, and you have to figure out what’s what and then go through, and then all of us had our own expertise in different areas. And we would look and you know, what would be something useful in this area?

So did you write a portion of it?

I redid a lot of the notes in Proverbs that had to be taken a look at and I over, I went through and checked the notes for I used to teach the archaeology class. So I checked the notes on archaeology and suggested a few here and there that that occurred. And you know, some of them are there.

You did actually write a chapter though, as I understand in a counseling book.

Yeah, there were three books in a series that I think Word ended up publishing them. One was the book on preaching. Another one was on pastoral ministry. And then there was a book on counseling. And a guy named Wayne Mack, who is the professor of counseling at the college at the time was kind of the the lead editor. It was one of those John MacArthur, Wayne Mack and the college faculty, just like the preaching book was the Seminary faculty. I did a lot of the editing, just, you know, proofreading and things like that. And then I did one chapter where I compiled it, it was a frequently asked question, chapter. I wrote some of the answers and a lot of the contributors answered, as well. And it came out and it was well done, it was well received. I think they still use it as a textbook. And then, oh about two years later, the book was being reissued. I think they tinkered with the title, I think they changed all of the titles of those slightly, and reissued them. And when the new one came out, and I’m working in the library. So I see a lot of the new books. And so all the new counseling book came out. And I saw, let me look at it, and I’m skimming through it. And I come to the chapter that I had done. And my name wasn’t there anymore. It was now John MacArthur.

Just like that.

Just like that. I complained a little bit, but it was already printed, what are they going to do? And I never got any kind of explanation as to why that was done, or who did it or anything else. It just my name disappeared.

And did you get royalties?

No. The contributors all got a stipend to originally produce whatever it is they produced. And then.

And who paid the stipend?

Oh, gosh, I think the check to me came from the school.

From the school?


So I guess the question is, and we don’t know the answer to this question. But there’s this whole issue of intellectual property and who owns what?


If you were paid by the Master’s University, then they should own that intellectual property of the book. And whether or not John got royalties on that or not. And I guess we don’t know. All we know is that Phil Johnson recently said that John MacArthur makes millions in royalties.

I’m certain he does.

Huh. You did tell me about a project though, while you were there, this hymnal project. And in Grace to You, as I understand it, would buy tons of copies of books. And that would often put them on the bestseller list? If they were bought, where they bought through Amazon?

I just assumed they would get them as from directly from the publisher. So I don’t know how they accounted for that.

So if you do get it directly from the publisher, it doesn’t count for your sales and you do get it at a fraction of the cost?

Right. And I’m sure that’s what they did for a lot of them. I would have said Grace To You use them as giveaways and different things, but it was it always struck me odd you know, we couldn’t find a hymnal we like, so we created our own. They’re working on a Bible translation. The Legacy Bible. We don’t like we don’t have any there’s no Bibles we like so we’re going to create our own. Well, they said they have six people that have been working for a year to translate them out. Well, that’s it’s impossible. That’s just silly. There. That’s an old The New American Standard that they’re tinkering with the wording. And that’s all it’s I’ve seen the sample that they’ve just put up on the web page. And that’s all it is. It’s not what the King James took all those guys, you know, 13 years to produce. The NASB originally, I think took seven or eight years of 40 people working on. The idea that six people working a year are going to create a whole new Bible translation is just absurd. And I don’t see the point in it. Why do you have to create something that’s already done?

The Legacy bible. Let’s talk accreditation, because that’s something that you you worked on. And from discussing this with you, and I don’t know anything to the contrary to this in 2008, the school was doing great. And then you went from great accreditation 2008, to being on probation in 2018, which was three years after you left. But one of the things and I’ve read the report, the WASC report, which is the accrediting body, and one of the things that they really highlight is what they said was a culture of fear and intimidation at the school, and that they seem to have tied that directly to MacArthur. They also complained that he was not working full time at the school and for a school that size and what needs to be done with accreditation and everything else, it needs a full time administrator at the top. So I mean, talk about that. Did you feel a culture of fear and intimidation?

To a degree. There was a colleague that Dr. Andy Snyder who was fired, despite the fact that he was universally loved by all of the faculty. He was not loved by Phil Johnson. And that was common knowledge that that was where the attack was coming from over some arcane theological issue, frankly, but probably starting about 2012. That’s when it really began to get difficult. You walked around kind of on eggshells, sometimes wondering what in the world was going on? There were changes. I remember Dr. MacArthur got rid they started getting rid of he got rid of his secretary who had been there for him been a secretary for like 25 years. And because they were they were moving female employees out.

Why? Why were they moving female employees out?

I have no idea. It it just, I remember that there was one person that worked for me in the library, my circulation manager. She was the only woman left in the school, the Seminary side who had authority over men, you know, the student workers.

That wasn’t okay?

Apparently not because they fired her.

Just for being a woman?

I don’t know exactly why they fired her. But that was mainly the reason. And it was done poorly enough that she sued and won. And I think they settled out of court. But there was a judgment against the school at that point. And it was just, they tried to run the school like it was the church. And they’re separate entities. They have separate missions, they have different guidelines, they have all sorts of different ways of doing things, and you can’t run a school like you run a church. And it became problematic, you know, they withdrew from the Evangelical Council on Financial Accountability. And they’ve had trouble since I left with loss, with the creditors. It’s like they don’t want any outside entity holding them to the basics of professionalism and standards. And and either in higher education or financial dealings or anything like that.

The Master’s University and Seminary is accredited by ECFA now.

The schools are. I think the church withdrew.

The church withdrew. Exactly. And that’s recent, though.

Yeah, that’s fairly recent. And you know, at what point will the schools withdraw? I mean, that’s a very inward growing isolation. I mean, we have to have our own hymnal. We’re gonna have our own Bible. We have our own school. We’re, you know, we’re gonna watch it ourselves. It’s becoming very insular. In terms of education, that’s very worrisome. I was looking at the list of faculty for the Seminary now, and it’s mostly people who graduated from there. It’s a large number who are, they got all their degrees there. And that’s not the way education supposed to work.

I don’t mean to be inflammatory. But to use this word will sound inflammatory. And I’m only asking because a number of people I’ve talked to, who have come from either the Master’s or Grace Community Church, seem to be afraid to speak on the record a lot of them.


But they describe it as cult like. Now I know one of the characteristics of a cult is it has to teach bad doctrine and I don’t think

No. Not necessarily.

Well, I’ve heard that it’s not just the control but usually when it’s called a cult, it has that other element and I don’t think that could possibly be said of of MacArthur. Although some people would there this whole controversy of mark of the Beast, and we’re not going to get into that but but yeah, I mean, I I don’t see any glaring issues. In fact, I have appreciated John MacArthur’s preaching. In fact, a little known fact that when I was reporting on Harvest Bible Chapel, people were circulating a John MacArthur sermon on First Timothy 5:20, about publicly exposing an elder who’s sinning because he preaches very straight up on that. And hardly anybody preaches on that. And so I actually appreciate a lot of the preaching of John MacArthur. But this control and fear that I’ve seen from people who, I’ve had numerous people really upset about things that are going on, and they’ll talk to me, but they won’t go on the record. And I’m like, why? You don’t go to the church anymore? You’re not at the school anymore? And they’re like, you don’t understand! I’ll be ostracized!


By everyone. Tell me about that dynamic.

They often can’t just get rid of people. You know, they have to trash their reputation on the way out. It’s like this recent deal with Dr. Horn being dismissed.

Let me just say because some people listening might not know. But Dr. Sam Horn was brought in less than a year ago to be president of the school because one of the things when they were put on probation by WASC, one of these issues, again, was John MacArthur serving as president. So he moved to Chancellor and they brought in a full time president, which was Sam Horn. And Sam, from my understanding, had a stellar reputation at that point.

A great guy, a great experienced educator, school administrator, upfront guy. I have all the respect in the world or him. I met him a few times ,but I have other friends who’ve known him for 304-40years. And who were all just outraged. I mean, first of all, you hire somebody, and then who you announce to the world, he’s the he’s the guy, this is going to be our leader going forward. And nine months later, you’re letting him go. I mean, you’re he resigned, you’re forced out, I’m sure. And four board members are leaving at the same time.

That really hasn’t been reported yet. Because I can’t get anybody to talk to me again.

Right. And and that’s a shame. And there’s the thing about talking is not only ostracizing, but there, there are a lot of people they believe in the greater good. Yeah, MacArthur has got his flaws, and all of these things, and these things have happened. But, you know, if we attack him, or if we expose this thing, it’s gonna hurt the whole cause of Christ. Christianity is gonna rise and fall on that. And I don’t believe that. I believe in holding people accountable and if it needs to be called out needs to be called down and what are they, they’ve already fired me. What else are they? What else? I mean, I’m sure they’ll come up with some, you know, horrible stories about me, you know, what a terrible person I was or something but that’s I’ve been gone for six years. I mean, it’s what offends me is how they hurt people on the way out. The poor guy that replaced me in the library. I mean, he lasted for six months, and then they fired him too. And the lady who worked for me who they fired in, she at least got some you know, financial compensation but and with Sam not I mean, just letting him go, but then going to chapel to students, and saying he has anger issues and all of these terrible things, you know.

And this by the way, this is on my website. If you go to There’s a story about Dr. Sam Horn resigning, but I also was given somebody had recorded the chapel that you’re talking about, and Dr. Abner Chow, got up in front of chapel and he essentially said there’s qualifications for an elder and some of these is that he can’t be pugnacious, can’t be given to the outbursts of anger. And now we want this just to stay with us. That’s what killed me! It’s like I’m gonna sit this spread this to hundreds of people in the chapel.


Maybe more than hundreds maybe I don’t know how many what’s the student body at?

Oh, my there might have been four or 500 there.

400-500. And he said, This applied to Sam Horn, which was shocking, apparently, to those who knew him because they’re like, this is a man whose proven character we know. This has never happened before and why he left? Maybe you have some insight on that. I’m certainly not getting anything from the school. Anything official.

Oh, no. And first of all, I mean, I’m not an attorney. But I know something about the HR rules. And what Dr. Chow did was probably actionable. I mean, it’s slanderous. It affects his ability, perhaps to get other employment down the road. What somebody else told me, I mean, the first the Dr. Horn knew about this is when he heard the recording, and was horrified, and rightfully so. And no small coincidence that Dr. Chow has now been appointed the interim president. I mean, it’s some of the strangest, you couldn’t write a novel with these twists and turns and have it make any sense.

Well, it will be interesting to see what happens whether the Master’s University and Seminary will stay together or be split. I heard that was part of the discussion. Whether John MacArthur will take over as president of one of those, probably the Seminary if, if any, but at this point, we don’t know.

No. I mean, that’s the rumor I’ve heard that they want to make the Seminary a ministry of the church, separated from the college And put it under the control of the elders. That’s John’s baby, the Seminary. Get rid of, takes him out from under oversight of WASC.

Which means they if you’re not accredited, you can’t get loans, right?

Well, the students couldn’t get student loans. People who are thinking about going into the military chaplaincy or other things like they couldn’t get their degree there, because those agencies require an accredited degree.

Like, if you’re getting a teacher certificate? Can you do that if you’re not accredited?

Not necessarily. I mean, you end up having to explain and or if you transfer, you know, your unaccredited degree and tried to go get a PhD somewhere, I mean, it can be done. But it’s just a lot of extra work. And frankly, you can’t just pick up the phone and call and say, Well, we’re not with you anymore. And we’re going to split the schools. There’s a thing called the substantive change report that needs to be done ahead of time. And it’s not just a one page letter that says, you know, this is what we’re going to do.

You’ve done these.

Yeah, I’ve done these before. There’s an enormous amount of work that has to go into this. And you can’t just because if you split, I mean, the church Treasurer will take care of the finances, and the HR department will take care of all those things. But there’s a lot of stuff that goes on with that. They think perhaps they’re going to go to ATS, the Association of Theological Schools, to get accreditation. Well, that’s a two or three year undertaking. And ATS is a great organization, and a grade accreditor. They don’t cut corners. I will be very surprised to see what comes out of that.

Sure. Well, let’s talk about your dismissal because as I understand it came to an abrupt end in April 2015. That’s when you got fired. However, this all began with a survey. Tell me about that survey and the process and why it came to head like it did.

If I was chronicling this I chronicled the beginning of the end, April 2014. We had a we every year, the Seminary faculty had a dinner and nice restaurant, we did it every year, it was fun. It was in the evening. It was a Monday, John came to it, MacArthur came to it. He was late. He was obviously in a surly, disagreeable mood. And he got up and in front of faculty, wives and different staff members. And and started off by saying, You know, you guys, you’re doing a great job. I’m proud of you. You’re doing wonderful, it’s all but your leaders have just stabbed you in the back. You know, they’ve just undercutting everything you’re trying to do. And everyone’s looking around at each other saying what in the world is this all about?

Cuz this is supposed to be a nice banquet?

Yeah. It’s supposed to be a nice banquet. This goes on and he just continues to lambast. And they’re basically the leadership was there were four people as Dr. Mayhue, Dr. Busenitz, myself and a guy named Ray Mehringer, who is in charge of admissions and different things. And it turned out what he was upset about, apparently was we had begun to really work on Why do students come to Master’s Seminary? John was in his middle 70s at the time. We all understood he was not going to live forever. We would do surveys of incoming students, Why did you come here? And the number one reason constantly was, you know, John MacArthur. I want to come and study under John MacArthur, which he preached in Chapel once in a while, but he didn’t teach classes or anything like that. And we realize that’s not sustainable when he’s not here. So we had just earlier before this dinner, had a new survey, and we had what we thought was success. The number one reason students were coming to the Seminary was the reputation of the school. And then it was, you know, the faculty and the academic programs. And there was something else and John MacArthur as the reason people were coming to seminary was like number 5.

And this was new, this has never happened.

It never happened before. And so we were happy. We thought we had accomplished we were we were building for the future. He was apparently patently upset. I went straight from that dinner to LAX because I was flying to somewhere for a conference. And I didn’t get back in the town until Thursday. And I went in the next morning. First thing I went to Dr. Mayhue’s office when he got there, and I just said, I you know, I just want to apologize. I think we You’re doing a great job. I think this is exactly what we’re trying to do. And he was you could tell he was just utterly defeated. He just said, Well, it is what it is. He was gone. By fall, he had been replaced. And they dressed it up. They said, Well, he’s going to retire. He’s going to become this research professor. Well, they moved him to a little office. It didn’t last. We did our annual lecture series. And this is something Dick has thought up and it was very well received over the years. And they renamed it you know, the Dick Mayhue Lecture series. Well, apparently it lasted about a year and a half or two, maybe one year after that, they cancelled they don’t do the series anymore. It’s not even listed on the webpage anymore. It’s just gone. So it’s like, like they’ve erased everything related to him. And then the following April, then I was it was a holiday. I got called in and said, We’re reorganizing, and you’re not needed anymore. I’ve been there for almost 25 years. And I said, that’s fine. But what I really want to talk to John personally about this. I mean, I think I’ve earned the right to have a conversation with the president over this. And I was told that Nope, nope. He’s not interested in talking to you. And that was it. I was given a little bit of a severance, but it was, I was not like I was planning to go look for a job at the time. But it was Monday, it was a holiday, I had my office cleaned out by Wednesday. And I was gone. I wasn’t allowed to tell my staff. I wasn’t allowed to meet with anybody.

You’d like to persona non grata.

Right I was persona non grata. And it was, you know, if you want to talk about fear and intimidation, well my staff was just devastated. People, you know, students otherwise, you know, what in the world is going on? Fortunately, I wasn’t teaching that semester, or what could have been even more problematic. But apparently, I was wanted by somebody, I became the Dean of the library in the University of North Carolina system. And we had been there for the last five or six years.

So you had said that other people who had left, that their character was essentially assassinated as they were going out the door. Did this happened to you?

Yeah. I mean, there were a lot of various rumors and innuendos that were put out, and I think they did have some sort of staff meeting where they said, Well, you know, the reason Dennis has gone into this reorganization, and we just, you know, we couldn’t afford to pay him just to be the librarian anymore. And we were gonna go, you know, the funny thing is, they didn’t give me a choice. It’s not like, well, would you take just a pay cut to keep being the librarian? and you don’t, we don’t want you to do accreditation or operations anymore. That was never an option.

And and to your knowledge, you don’t know anything that you did that put you out of his good graces?

No, one thing that was told that kept being repeated was you were too close with Dr. Mayhue. You were too much like him. And you were trying to run things the same way he ran things. As though that was a bad thing.

And I know, as an administrator, and/or a professor, often you don’t have a lot of contact with the board. But I know when there’s issues, they say, you look at the board. And I know one of the things that came up, and again, this WASC report that was three years after you left, was that the board was not independent. Almost everybody was good friends with MacArthur. They were you know, or pastors at Grace Community Church. I mean, did you feel like you had any recourse that you could go to the board? What was the board like?

The board was exactly as WASC described. And it’s interesting, I created a memo a couple months before I was gone, like January, February, because we were getting ready for a new cycle of accreditation. I said, These are the these are the things we need to work on. I said this is getting too insular. And, and we’re gonna run into problems. We need to stay ahead of this. And when they were put on probation in 2018, it’s almost verbatim almost everything I wrote in that memo was one of the things that they talked about. I’m glad they got off probation. I love the school is a good school. It has a lot of potential. It’s been mismanaged, I think the last five or seven years.

One of the things in the report, though, that we haven’t talked about is some of the Cleary Act, and Title IX violations that supposedly were in there of women who say they were sexually assaulted when they were at the school, they tried to report it. And not only did they not find comfort or protection or help at the school, but that they felt like the administration actually turned on them.


Do you have any first hand knowledge of any of that?

Most of those occurrences were at the college. So with the female students and things like that, obviously, the one person that worked for me that was fired and then sued. I don’t know what all of that was about. But since she won, I assumed that the judge thought that she was right. It was a disturbing trend. I mentioned the fact that Dr. MacArthur got rid of his secretary at the church who had been there 25 years. And she still needed to work. The turnover and the women’s place was in the home, and not in ministry, and not even in supporting ministry, not even working. It was like, we don’t want women to work at all. And we’re and we believe that so strongly, we’re just not going to hire any women. I found that to be disturbing at a lot of levels. I mean, should women be pastors? I personally think the Bible is clear on that. But at the same time, there’s lots of things women can be involved in. It’s another story, but all the Beth Moore stuff and all the things that that he said about her. It was just, it’s just inappropriate. I mean, there’s a way to express your being on the other side of an argument then pejorative sorts of comments like that.

Well, I’ve seen plenty of pejorative.

Yeah, well, yeah, we all have it’s, and that’s that may be the thing that upsets me the most about what’s happening at the school, is the trashing of reputations. I remember when my good friend Dr. Larry Pettigrew taught theology there for a long time. And he was moving to become dean at Shepherd Seminary in Cary Indiana. Well, and MacArthur said, in public, you know, well, you know, Larry Pettigrew was out of the will of God. And in his, you know, it wasn’t he wasn’t kidding. Which reminds me of another story. We were, we were in a WASC meeting. It was a conference call. Dr. MacArthur was there and myself and two other people from the college were there and WASC was on the phone, and they were asking pointed questions, and they at one of the questions they asked was about, you know, you don’t have any minority representation on the board. And and that’s true. It is, there is there are no women, there are no and there are no minorities on the board and John, with a completely straight face, and he was dead serious. I was sitting like, we’re sitting right now. I was looking right at him. And he said, we do have minorities on the board. We have a Dutchman. And, and I looked over at the the vice president over the colleges is a friend of mine, and we look to each other. He says, Yeah, we and MacArthur continued, we have, you know, John van Winterton, you know, he’s he’s a Dutchman. He’s not, he’s not an American, you know. I wish we were we all were and and and it wasn’t, he wasn’t making a joke. It wasn’t light hearted, you know. Andthe people at the WASC office were on the other end of the call. I could I could almost imagine their faces. They were just, you know, dumbfounded. Well, they just kind of politely moved on to the next thing. They didn’t know how to respond to that.

I’m dumbfounded. I mean, that is a show of how insular it’s become when you don’t even know that your your opinion is so completely out of step with the conventional wisdom on things. I mean, that’s, that’s stunning. But when you talk about people’s character being assassinated, pejorative comments, I will say I have never in my life, and I’ve been reporting for a while, never been called or treated by a ministry director, the way that Phil Johnson has treated me, and the things that he has said about me. It is shocking to me that he remains in that position with his behavior. But I’ll say even more than that, I didn’t even know this, but a whole army of YouTubers out there that defend John and just vilify anybody who dares to publish anything that might possibly be negative about John, and they say things that are just flat out false. I mean, they’re, it’s such a twisting of the truth or such as pulling things out of context. I’ve never received the kind of hate mail I’m getting now. The names I am called. The middle finger emojis. I mean, there’s nothing godly about it.

Oh, no, not at all. It’s like a mafia. I don’t get any of it. There’s nothing Christian about the way they deal with people who don’t agree with them. When the school is put on probation, by WASC, MacArthur went to the spoke in chapel and he said, You know, this is a an organized satanic attack.


No it wasn’t! You need to get your house in order. It’s not just a difference of opinion. It’s a it’s an attack, or it’s a satanic attack, or it’s an organized, orchestrated attack on truth.

The same thing happened to Austin Doucet, who was the Seminary student who spoke out about these COVID guidelines that TMUS who had themselves, that was their guidelines that they were flagrantly violating and how he was being balked by professors because he was wearing a mask these things. And he showed the conversation that was going on in this kind of a private social media that they had at the Seminary. And they were saying pray for Austin’s salvation.

Yeah, if you don’t agree with them, you must be evil, or you’re just not saved. And all those things have been said about me. It’s really too bad because the schools had really good people, really knowledgeable people, broad thinking people who could really make the schools shine much more than they have. I don’t know what the future holds.

You said, It’s a good school. They have great people there. At the same time. We’ve got this really toxic culture.


It sounds like. Can it change? And if so what needs to happen?

I think the college perhaps is salvageable. If the right person comes into lead. If they split and the Seminary becomes a ministry of the church, it’ll John’s what 81 or 82. What happens when he dies? Anyone who would want to succeed him at the church, I would question their mental stability at a certain level. You know, but what happens? Who’s going to who’s being groomed to take over? No one that I’m aware of. I really don’t know what’s going to happen. And if the accrediting people You know, dropped the hammer on the whole thing and ultimately the college is going to suffer, things could be bad. I don’t know what the future holds. I think it’s very, very shaky right now. What would they do to change? They should have allowed Sam Horn to continued what he was doing as the President. I think he had some good ideas. Somebody, him or somebody like him, a reworking of the board to get some independent thinking, and move on from there.

And then end of cult of personality.

I think so. It can’t be everything related to one person.

Yeah. Well, Dennis, we could talk a long time about this. But I have enjoyed our conversation. And I’ve enjoyed the inside look to this. And I wish you the best as your job searching here. And maybe we’ll end up in the Chicago area. But thank you for taking the time. I appreciate it.

Thank you. And I appreciate all the work that you’re doing and the reporting. I enjoyed seeing all the comments as well and pray for you regularly that the truth always wins. That’s what I’ve always believed and taught, and truth and the right thing always comes out on top. It may just take a while.

Well, thank you. And I do appreciate that. And I do believe that, that the truth does win out in the end and so we just hold it. Again. Thank you so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. If you’d like to find me online, just go to And please subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts or Google podcasts. That way, you’ll never miss an episode. And I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you have a great day and God bless.

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103 Responses

  1. I read through the transcript and nothing jumps out at me. There were some management screw-ups not directly relating to MacArthur and some shunting of money to Kory Welch, MacArthur’s son-in-law, which is really MacArthur’s way of taking care of his daughter. Not all daughters marry competent men, I’m sorry to say. I don’t fault MacArthur for ensuring that his daughter is provided-for in spite of his son-in-law’s flaws, though we may quibble about the level of compensation.

    Speaking of that, fundraising is most of what university professors do, so his compensation despite not being in the office appears justified. What I saw a lot of in this interview was leading the witness and innuendo, to wit, “culture of FEAR, etc.” Swanson appears to have a spotty resume and doesn’t seem to have landed in the ministry despite much study and interim pastoring. This is a yellow flag. He also has a couple of axes to grind about sections he ghost-wrote that he wasn’t compensated-for. This is not likely MacArthur’s fault, nor are the other run-of-the-mill problems described which are found in any large organization.

    Roys’ interview seems to be switching from topic-to-topic with this man to find the smoking gun, much like a prosecuting attorney. When will the defense be allowed to cross-examine (Proverbs 18:17)? The transcript says that Roy’s has been talking with Swanson for over a year. Perhaps he has been milked dry. Where are MacArthur’s other accusers?

    Good thing MacArthur isn’t litigious against fellow believers.

    1. It is not simply funnelling money to his daughter- it is fraud. If he wants to support his daughter and her family, why not just give them money out of his lavish pockets?
      Fraud is a serious crime yet you seem happy to write it off as JMac being a good dad. You realise that it’s donors and students money? It’s not his to ‘shunt’ anywhere – its dishonest and as Christians we should love the truth and expose deception. What other crimes would you be willing to overlook if someone was simply looking out for their kids as you say?
      And what you say about swanson is a form of gaslighting. The guy was at TMU for 24 years. If he has a spotty resume as you say, that’s TMU’s fault for not doing due diligence.
      More will come put and it will get harder and harder for people like you to defend JMac. The defenses are becoming more ridiculous by the day- as you have so kindly shown.

      1. It is not simply funnelling money to his daughter- it is fraud. If he wants to support his daughter and her family, why not just give them money out of his lavish pockets?

        It’s not fraud to give work to a son-in-law even if the work is done poorly. Because of the tax laws, you can’t just give money to children. I got a temporary loan from my parents to buy a new house while waiting to close on my old one and was astonished that there were tax implications for this. The government limits how much you can give before onerous tax implications. Which is better, giving the daughter money directly, which could undermine the marriage, or trying to get the son-in-law to work for the money even if he doesn’t do it as well as he should. The latter has not been proven. Swanson claimed the work was poor. Maybe others disagree. You’re taking this as a fact.

        I also know many families have dingbats and you don’t get to pick them – they’re family.

        More will come out and it will get harder and harder for people like you to defend JMac. The defenses are becoming more ridiculous by the day- as you have so kindly shown.

        The attacks seem to be reaching and quite a stretch as well. Clearly the proprietress of this site does not like MacArthur. In anything, there are the reasons given publicly for this dislike and the private reasons. What is the political and ideological slant of this blog? Is MacArthur opposed to it?

    2. I have to agree with Alex. 24 years in the same institution hardly constitutes a spotty resume. That’s reaching.

      Nevertheless, I somewhat agree with you that the earlier parts of the interview seemed to be overly leading and provided less compelling evidence of wrongdoing. I found the things shared in the later portion far more concerning, however.

      I also think it a bit odd that you’re so dismissive of the concerns about the authorship issue. It is strange that the acknowledgement of the actual genuine author of the content was removed and replaced by attributing the content to Macarthur. That’s not truthful. Not sure why you think that’s no big deal.

      1. The ghost-writing bothers me, but there are degrees of guilt that could be possible. One possibility is that MacArthur directly took credit for others’ work in the MacArthur study bible and the book on counseling. This is bad. The other possibility is that the publisher did it and MacArthur said nothing about it in the final product. This is bad, but not as bad.

        I have an ESV study Bible from Ligonier and all the contributors are listed even though it’s edited by RC Sproul.

        The accreditation issues are nothing to me. In the future, accreditations will be revoked simply because we are Christians. It’s already happening in Canada.

        Overall, I think Julie Roys has a vendetta against MacArthur for some other reason than what is given. It started after his comments on Beth Moore.

        1. Accusing a journalist of having a vendetta is a common slur by those who don’t like what they’re uncovering.

    3. Bryce, about your cross-examining complaint, the cowards of team MacArthur, Family, and Toady Inc. refuse to give straight answers to honest questions from those not in their good ol’ boy club. Chief mercenary of machinations Phil Johnson had a lame, back-patting softball interview with Justin Peters, who cravenly refused to interview and cross-examine Ms. Roys after repeatedly hypocritically also quoting Proverbs 18:17, but won’t answer any inquiries from Ms. Roys, preferring instead to personally attack and illegally doxx her. MacArthur Inc. has had ample opportunity to present their case, but will only do so in an extremely limited, obfuscating, dishonest way from their safe spaces while falsely crying they are being persecuted by those who hate the gospel.

      1. Bryce, about your cross-examining complaint, the cowards of team MacArthur, Family, and Toady Inc. refuse to give straight answers to honest questions from those not in their good ol’ boy club.

        How many questions would you answer to someone who was trying to dig up dirt on you to accuse you? If someone went through your past with a fine-tooth comb, what would they find?

        Proverbs 18:17 – it’s in the Bible. We haven’t heard MacArthur’s side of the story and if he chooses to tell it, it won’t be here. If I were him, I wouldn’t answer stories based on hearsay from someone who had it out for me.

        but won’t answer any inquiries from Ms. Roys, preferring instead to personally attack and illegally doxx her


        The proprietress seems to have double-standards depending on the ideology of people she supports or condemns. Aimee Byrd has refused to answer questions about her theology from the ACE, and this was good because she “doubted the honesty of the process.” A doxing website mysteriously appeared in conjunction with a CT article on The Genevan Commons and her open letter to the OPC. It looked like a coordinated launch, complete with doxing. Several of the doxed later proved their innocence or simply people who were inactive members who were guilted-by-association. However, Aimee Byrd is an ally so it’s OK.

        1. Bryce, the reference/link you asked for about Justin Peters refusing to interview Ms. Roys can be found in her 2/27/21 article about Phil Johnson’s defense, where she says near the end: “Equally sad, Justin Peters, who posted the video of his interview with Johnson on his ministry’s YouTube channel, has refused to interview me so I can present the facts to his audience.” Proverbs 18:17 cuts both ways, which Peters and Johnson, and by extension others with MacArthur, Inc., hypocritically fail to apply to themselves. They are not being denied a chance to cross-examine or otherwise present relevant facts; in fact, they refuse to.

          It seems you are acknowledging there is in fact dirt at MacArthur, Inc.. The many serious, well-documented issues that are being presented are not those that it would take a fine-tooth comb to find.

          1. “Equally sad, Justin Peters, who posted the video of his interview with Johnson on his ministry’s YouTube channel, has refused to interview me so I can present the facts to his audience.”

            If I were them, I wouldn’t engage with her which just gives her credibility. She is not a legitimate discipline body of the church and she wants to dig up dirt.

            There’s dirt in your life as well. And mine. So far, none of the “dirt” dug up on MacArthur seems particularly damaging to him, especially for an operation of the size of his. Many of the things posted here about him and his church seem erroneous and reaching.

            He should correct the issues of authorship and issue and apology and he shouldn’t have tied his COVID suit to the Trump administration nor gone on the news. He has, however, been on the news many times in the past and has a history with Gavin Newsom dating back to Newsom issuing gay “marriage” licenses in 2006.

            I kind of wonder if there isn’t a “No good deed goes unpunished” thing going on with his critics. Is our Master delayed in coming, and some of his servants have decided to beat others of His servants? (Luke 12:45)

    4. Bryce, is there a theological principle behind MacArthur’s using his non-profits to funnel money to his daughter via her husband’s “business”? To me, it seems like a mafioso move.

    5. Bryce, the Luke 12:45 verse and broader parable you mention speak of being ready at all times for Christ’s return, which is certainly applicable advice for all. The specific warning given is to a powerful manager living a life of worldly comfort while abusing those of lower status.

      MacArthur and his henchmen, particularly Phil Johnson, have been charged from many sources over an extended period of time with abusive bullying, some of which is a matter of objective public record. Some famous pastors in recent years have rightly been fired and disqualified from ministry for such sins.

      This, along with MacArthur’s prosperous, luxurious lifestyle even by American standards, makes it clear who should heed Christ’s warning in the parable the most.

      Other disqualifying sins include habitual, unrepentant lying and deception. Nepotism and enrichment of self, family, and friends from donors’ funds is also highly problematic.

      MacArthur Inc. is a textbook case of DARVO in action with their false, shameful cries of being persecuted by the devil and evil people who hate the gospel, who Phil Johnson has called “cockroaches,” among other things.

      1. MacArthur and his henchmen, particularly Phil Johnson, have been charged from many sources over an extended period of time with abusive bullying, some of which is a matter of objective public record.

        Links? These charges are thrown around all the time by Evangelical liberals. They’re nebulous-enough that almost anyone in authority can be guilty. Notice you said, “charges.” Where are the convictions? They appear to be in the court of public opinion which is known for its unjust rulings.

        This, along with MacArthur’s prosperous, luxurious lifestyle even by American standards, makes it clear who should heed Christ’s warning in the parable the most.

        You can’t see into his heart to know whether or not he idolizes wealth, which makes you covetous and libelous. My pastor lives in a nicer house than me and makes more money. He also works probably twice as many hours in a job of much-higher stress. As far as I’m concerned, I have no right to say what he should and shouldn’t have. Men who are good with money accumulate more of it in life to give to their descendants.

        Other disqualifying sins include habitual, unrepentant lying and deception. Nepotism and enrichment of self, family, and friends from donors’ funds is also highly problematic.

        You’re spitballing here. If by, “nepotism”, you mean, “giving contracts to family”, it’s is the way the world works and it’s a good thing. Most of the world works with family and thinks it’s insane to favor a total stranger over a relative. It’s only until just recently in this country that anyone thought otherwise.

        MacArthur Inc. is a textbook case of DARVO in action with their false, shameful cries of being persecuted by the devil and evil people who hate the gospel, who Phil Johnson has called “cockroaches,” among other things.

        Mentioning “DARVO” is another liberal Protestant tell. This allows liberals like you to accuse and confirm guilt in the court of public opinion when the accused defends himself. The fact is that this is a remote blog, not a church court. Until you have concrete proof of what you’re saying in the form of a conviction to point to, you’re just engaging in slander and libel like a Pharisee. Pharisees, like you, had tons of accusations, to wit, “The Son of Man eats with tax collectors and sinners,” and “the Son of Man is a drunk and a liar.” Are you a hypocrite?


          The Securities and Exchange Commission charged Criterion Wealth Management Insurance Services, Inc., a Santa Clarita, California, investment advisory firm, and its then co-owners Robert Gravette and Mark MacArthur, also of California, for breaching their fiduciary duty and defrauding their advisory clients by failing to disclose significant financial conflicts of interest when recommending investments in private real estate investment funds.

          Disclosure, transparency…
          Board members, family arrangements

        2. Bryce, I never claimed to be able to see into MacArthur’s heart, but ironically you hypocritically claim to be able to see into mine when you call me “covetous.” You are also literally the first person in my life to call me “liberal.” Like MacArthur Inc., when they have nothing of substance to say about facts and details other than more deceptions, you resort to baseless personal attack.

          I’ve never heard anyone else say mentioning DARVO is a “liberal Protestant tell.” DARVO is not bound by ideology; if a liberal person was guilty of DARVO, he could also try to deflect by claiming it was a conservative tell.

          As ungodly tyrants who can’t deal with facts are also prone to do, you wrongly accuse of “slander” and “libel,” although these require knowingly saying false things to damage someone’s reputation, which you have not demonstrated at all.

          Nepotism is not just “giving contracts to family,” but showing family or friends undue favoritism.

          A conviction by a church court is not the only way to establish guilt. Regarding MacArthur Inc., some of their dealings, such as with Master’s University and Seminary, and Grace to You organization, are not even under a church’s authority. And his church Grace Community Church (GCC) is nondenominational, so there is no denominational structure to “convict” them. If elders at GCC fail to do their job properly, there is no way to “convict” the wrongdoers, which can be another very harmful result of nepotism.

          It has been demonstrated repeatedly how insider boards often fail to hold domineering leaders accountable. When this is the case, constructive and necessary change has been brought about by those outside the board or official leadership structure calling out the negligent, failed leadership. As members of God’s Church, Christians have the authority and responsibility to do this, to His glory and the health and positive witness of His Body.

      1. Except that’s not what happened. Welch was paid to do a job. Swanson was unhappy with the quality of the work and the compensation, but maybe others were happy with both. We don’t know.

        “You’re as bad off as JM” You know me, and my life? Unbelievable. When will you pick up rocks to stone me?

        1. So did John MacArthur do it, or his son (allegedly?) If his son, how his John guilty of something his son did?

    6. I don’t quite understand the attempts to defend J MacArthur on the narrow reading or understanding of the narratives – as if he were a common man being charged with a specific crime – and the only way to acquit him is to use technical defenses without regard to moral or ethical consideration. Now, of course, J MacArthur is not just any man – he is the spiritual leader of and teacher to thousands of devoted followers. He exerts great influence over their lives and the direction of their spiritual destination. I think for someone like him we can say that James 3:1 is applicable – that he should be held to a higher or stricter standards. 1 Timothy 3 describes some essential personal character and qualities required of our spiritual leaders: above reproach, self-controlled, gentle, not lover of money, able to manage own family (including son in law), not conceited, have good reputation with outsiders (non-believers), and not pursuing dishonest gains. Viewed through the lens of what the Bible requires of a spiritual leader, I believe there are areas that he needs to make corrections and improvements on.

    7. Uh. TMS and TMUS are under accreditation probation for these very issues. I was personally kicked out of Travis Allen’s car (after being invited to Easter dinner with his family, 2015–and BTW, I’m a disabled woman veteran who used a powerchair at the time), for refusing to deny that Jesus came to me in a glorious, amazing dream when I was 18, and coming out of severe trauma as a teenager, who had suffered for years at the hands of my demon possessed mother who had worked the Ouija board. (Travis organized the Strange Fire conference in case you don’t know).

      You Calvinist cessationists need to put freemasons John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, et. al., aside, and open the word of God concerning the Lord coming to people in dreams and visions. According to Elihu in Job 33, He most certainly DOES come to people in dreams and visions, to “turn a man’s soul back from the pit,” which is exactly what He did with me. And John Abdullah MacArthur doesn’t “get” to tell God what to do with His children. The Lord says to HIM, Travis Allen and Phil Johnson, “Will you give me orders concerning the work of My hands? It is MY hands that made the heavens and the earth.” These men have done nothing BUT take FROM the Word of God, while John MacArthur actually agrees with cult leader Mary Baker Eddy concerning the sacred blood of Christ.

      I thought it was interesting that Travis invited Joni Eareckson Tada, who compromises all the time with false teachers, to speak at the conference, while I get kicked out of his car. Smh. My atheist wheelchair cab driver who drove me home is not soon to come to Christ now that he’s seen such wicked behavior of these “shepherds of the flock,” but even HE was impressed when, after we stopped speaking, I opened my Bible which was on my lap, RIGHT TO 1 Peter 4:14, which says “If you are insulted for the Name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.”

      Hallelujah. I believe in eternity I will rejoice, because these wicked men gave me the privilege of suffering persecution for Him. Travis’s church doctrinal statement actually quotes Charles Spurgeon in this matter also (and not the Word of God), and states that “anyone ‘guilty’ of an extrabiblical revelation should consider the following statement by Charles Spurgeon…”

      I am proud to state that someday I will stand before God the Father, Jesus Christ, the angels and this entire universe, and I will plead “GUILTY AS CHARGED” that Jesus Christ came to me in a dream. What a privilege and blessing I was given. Phil Johnson has my testimony BTW, and I have no doubt that John MacArthur has read it. It passes biblical examination 100 percent, and these men KNOW that, but “pride goes before a fall,” is all I can say.

      And I’m interested to know if YOU agree with JMac’s wicked blasphemy concerning the blood of Christ, and his false teaching that one can take the mark and still be saved??? “Blessed is he who is not condemned by what he approves”….

    8. Thank you fir your thoughts. Very helpful in providing an alternate perspective. Read through article this am. Will listen to broadcast today. I appreciate your commitment to providing another way to look at the details provided.

    9. Agree with this assessment. I work for a ministry that has been disparaged many times over. Often people that have worked there make comments to disparage it when they leave. However there is hard work and much dedication from the top down and most don’t understand what it takes to do this work. I would definitely stay away from making comment such as were made here. It sounds a lot like sour grapes to me. Just my two cents. Probably better to focus on the work of the Lord and not on the work of men.

  2. I wonder if anyone else here would consider GCC a cult? It certainly has similar aspects of an cult:

    – The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display zealous, unquestioning commitment

    – The group is preoccupied with making money.

    – Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished

    – The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society

    – The group’s leader is not accountable to any authorities

    – The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them

    Etc. There are too many to list here…

    Thoughts, anyone?

    1. IMHO words like “cult”, “rape”, and “holocaust” are strong words that should not be watered down to include lesser evils. Although “cult of personality” may be fitting, I wouldn’t begin to compare J Mac to David Koresh or Jim Jones.

    2. I think those things are all true in this case, but I agree it is more along the lines of a “Personality Cult.” The control is not cult-like beyond an intense allegiance to the top man whose word is law within the organization — and encouraging the hoi polloi into thinking the leader is the best thing since sliced bread. The abrupt firings, character assassination, arrogance, and belittling all who differ is pretty typical of organizations built around the brand of an individual. But there really isn’t anything like brain-washing at GCC and TMS. The fawning over the leader is quite voluntary. You can leave if you want, and they don’t care. They’d rather see you go.

      In a lot of ways, the GCC world is not controlling. You can have your own opinions as long as you are not seeking leadership roles. Your money is yours. Your time is yours. But Cult of Personality? Yes.

      A decision was made early on in GCC development to build a movement around the man, rather than build a decentralized movement through church planting. The seminary was the way to keep it about the man, and the Bible with his name on it, etc. There was great risk in this, because of the likelihood it would all go to the man’s head. They did not look 40 years ahead when the man was in his 80s and still clinging tightly to his control.

      It is sad to see better men thrown under the bus, but I suppose they should have known what they were dealing with.

    3. I would call it a cult and a cult of personality. People are following a madman just like they followed Jim Jones and Koresh. The guy on top is telling his people to ignore common sense. He is doing their thinking for him. People are actually dying because they want to rebel against simple precautions like social distancing and mask wearing. Those precautions are working. The evidence is in how exceedingly mild the flu season has been. If tomorrow John tells everyone to do something more dangerous they will do it. If he tells them to pick up guns and literally go to war with the government, they will do it. The only difference is that Jim did do those dangerous things resulting in the death of not just a few but everyone and so did Koresh. The mindset is there at GCC and that is damn scary to be honest. The only difference I see is that John has not gone as far as the others, yet. But it was only in the end that the other two did go that far and the end has not happened yet for John’s blasphemous kingdom.

    4. I consider it a ‘cult’ for al the reasons you’ve listed, and also because I have witnessed 1st hand some incredible people who along with their families have been destroyed by the teachings of JM and the MS, because they didn’t ‘buy’ some of the goods sold, or who were ‘counseled’ (accused) through strict adherence to them. You either step in line totally or get labeled in outcast. I would RUN, RUN, RUN from any church that esteems JM and MS. I say that having attended for a number of years a church that had its roots in that. I’m so thankful God opened my eyes to it. After leaving, God put in my life others who had been spiritually abused by this same institution. Wake up people and stop defending what is the exact opposite of the Gospel and Grace that our Lord taught!

  3. The most serious things we learn here are John’s false claims of authorship. They make the other accusations pale in significance. Yet publishers, editors, and the writers themselves went along with it. As the son of a lifelong publisher, editor, and author, and the son-in-law of another publisher and author—each CEO of two of the largest Christian publishing companies in the world—this is nothing less than theft and lies. If even part of what Brother Swanson says about John’s ghostwriters is true, John himself, every one of his writers and editors, and all John’s publishers paying him royalties for both print and digital works, should be ashamed of themselves. Lies and theft, although none of John’s fan club will have any knowledge of the ethics of it. Other than John, the chief culprit is Phil Johnson. What a faithless friend and co-worker he’s been to John, allowing these sins in the man he goes to God’s sanctuary beside. Let us all remind ourselves of the sins of many men of God and, those able, call John to confess and repent. What glory it would bring God! With love,

  4. I attended Grace Community Church and the college ministry Crossroads (Under Rick Holland) from 2007 to 2010. I whole-heartedly agree with the assessment that John Macarthur and his ministry is very similar (if not outright) a cult.

    1st example: Anytime he would go on vacation or have a guest pastor, the congregation attendance was halved! People wouldn’t bother coming to church unless he was speaking!

    2nd example: I definitely witnessed bullying and dismissive attitudes from leadership and members of the congregation alike if anyone challenged John Macarthur’s teachings or interpretations.

    3rd example: The overall attitude was that women should submit to *all* men, not just their husbands.
    In the college ministry, it felt like women were being primed and conditioned to be married. We were only “allowed” to pursue a career “As long as it didn’t impede on wifely duties”.
    There were several jokes from men that girls who pursued the degree at the Master’s College (I can’t recall if it’s Home Economics or Life Skills) were getting the “M-R-S” degree.
    There seemed to be this hidden incentive from leadership for women to “serve” (by way of providing free child care or cooking food, etc) in exchange for a recommendations of how “godly” they are, therefore good “wife” material to the men in the college group. Anytime the nursery needed extra help on Sundays, it was always “What women are willing to serve?” and not men.
    I went to a co-ed weekly prayer group associated with one of college Bible studies. As a female, I was actively discouraged from attending unless I “Brought other girls”, because on several occasions it ended up only being a group of guys.
    Women were admonished if they just so happened to be the only female in any kind of gathering – whether it was just group hanging out or ministry groups. I once volunteered to help clean up after a conference, and my help was initially accepted… Until the guys realized that I was going to be the only girl, in which I was told my help was not needed and I should leave.

    I was also turned off by Macarthur’s dismissive comments about women through several of his sermons.
    I’m so glad more people are speaking out about their experience with him and his church.

    1. Everyone needs to listen to his sermon on women after his “Go home” comments about Beth Moore. Just listen to it.

    2. not to defend mysoginy, but do realize, that some of those instances may have been due to protocols designed to protect you, as a lady being alone with a group of men, and/or to protect said menfolk. from being falsely accused of sexual acts/crimes….when I pastored, we had such protocols in place, to (hopefully) protect everyone involved in the life of the church…..

  5. Makes you wonder what’s going over at “Wretched” as well, the media ministry run by Todd Friel who is practically a MacArthur acolyte.

    1. “Wretched”- This ministry is only possible through your donations. Oh, by the way, did I mention that I have a net worth of $17 million?

    2. Excellent question! Maybe Julie will look into this? If the things coming out of John MacArthur’s church are so bad, who knows how bad the things are where his most devoted people work? Makes one wonder.

    3. Todd Friel is a freak of varying natures. He is, as you say, a MacArthur behind-kisser of the highest order.

  6. I don’t live in USA so I don’t know anything about any behind the scenes issues discussed and have no comment.

    But JM preaches cessation. This is dead wrong. His followers who are struck blind with cessation are missing a large part of the gospel of Jesus.

    JM is an excellent preacher. His sermons on the heresy of the Catholic Church are extremely well done.

    It’s not too late to make things right John. Please do. Don’t end up a pariah like Ravi Zacharias.

  7. “not sustainable”
    I think those are the two most insightful and important words in this whole podcast.
    When a system gets as warped as this, collapse is inevitable. I don’t know exactly when or how it will occur, but it’s clear that without real change (which seems increasingly unlikely) these ministries will at some point fall apart.

  8. All of this saddens but does not surprise me. I appreciate those who are willing to step forward and speak their experiences, even in the comments. This space has helped me, as a TMC alumna from the 90s, realize how gaslit I’ve been for all these years. Yes, I have benefited from MacArthur’s teaching in many ways. But there has been so much damage as well. But just having others voice that they too have seen actual abuses of power of various sorts has allowed me to have a kind of validation. Thank you!

  9. To help others to come to the knowledge of Christ and salvation is a reward itself and only has eternal value when nothing is expected in return.

  10. What an eye opening interview. Sad, also. This ministry has the typical earmarks of a toxic, ingrown organization.

  11. Yup, it’s the JMac acolytes like Bryce above that’s more worried about a few flies than the camel in the tent. Whenever someone finally admits, “I wouldn’t engage with her (Julie Roys) which just gives her credibility”…the double standard is right there for everyone to see. The gig is up.

    Good interview. The places is getting more and more toxic. Julie, you should try to run down the Women’s basketball coach that just resigned early this week…a very successful basketball coach! Lots of things going on behind the scenes that Swanson’s interview barely scratches the surface with.

    1. Totally agree with tracking down the coach. He has as much information as anyone there about the behind the scenes.

    2. Why is this a double standard? If someone showed up at your house one day trying to dig up dirt on your past, would you be obligated to answer their questions?

  12. I like JMac’s teachings. Don’t always agree with everything he preaches, though. But, it does bother me how lavish a lifestyle he leads all based on church donations, and it bothers me too the exuberant amount of money he pays his son-in-law; again, with donated church funds.

  13. I went to a church – the pastor used to be John MacArthurs assistant and literally all the stuff and mentioned in this interview went on. Fear, intimidation, making their own hymnal, slander people that leave, arranging marriages. It was terrifying! So glad my husband and I got out! It was definitely cult

  14. Julie! Great job (again). This is such good journalism. (I felt the MacArthur-CoVid thing was a distraction). I cannot believe how audacious JM and his assistants are. I don’t agree with some commenters that it’s a cult. It’s not a true cult like Scientology or JW’s. It’s cult of celebrity, encouraged by the celebrity and those who are benefiting financially from it. Others unwittingly go along until something occurs that opens their eyes. I hope people wake up to what happening in that whole church/seminary/ministry. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

  15. I quit listening to this drivel after 20 minutes. All the accusations are baseless based on their own words. Ghost Writing is when someone writes a book for you and your name goes on it NOT when someone takes your sermons, transcribes them and edits them. Regarding MacArthur taking 3 different salaries and making possibly up to $750,000 to $1,000,000…….how is that illega, Immoral, or wrong? Christians are a funny breed to constantly cry foul over success and making money. Regarding hiring his son in law? And?????? Isn’t that his prerogative? The fact he is paid generously is a moot point. No matter if the son in law does quality work or not. Then there is the mistake on what computer should have been purchased to run the new televisions…….It’s sounds like a legitimate mistake. Again, I turned it off after 20 minutes because there was nothing of substance, IMO. My biggest complaint about MacArthur is the name of his program “Grace to You”. I often find him lacking grace as he seems to attack other parts of the body of Christ. Just my 2 cents.

    1. Wendell, Your conclusions would be correct if MacArthur were running a for-profit family business. In that case, he can take as many salaries as he wants, employ as many family members as he wants, and pay them–and himself–as many exorbitant salaries as his heart desires. However, GTY, GCC, and TMUS are not family businesses. They are nonprofits supported by donor funds. And the IRS has rules prohibiting self-inurement and self-dealing with nonprofit funds. In other words, you can’t run your nonprofits like a family business, which is what MacArthur apparently is doing.

      On the books… You seemed to have missed that only a few books were based on MacArthur’s sermons. Others were completely new material, reportedly written by others. Also, the authors who wrote those books were reportedly paid by MacArthur’s nonprofits. Yet, did the nonprofits receive the royalties on this work for hire, or did MacArthur? Indications are the latter.

  16. Hi John and Phil

    Have you read this ? Or did you write this ?

    Taken from Strength for Today by John Macarthur Copyright @ 1997………

    The Summation Of Humility

    “Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law” (Romans 13:8).

    If believers fulfill their constant debt of love, they will have a continual attitude of sacrificial humility.

    Origen, the early church father, wisely said, “The debt of love remains with us permanently and never leaves us. This is a debt which we pay every day and forever owe.” The primary reason you and I can pay that debt is that “the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us” (Rom. 5:5). God’s own love to us and every other believer is the bottomless well from which we can draw and then share with others.

    If we have this wonderful, supernatural resource of love through the Holy Spirit, it only follows that we must submit to the Spirit. When we do so, all the enemies and impediments to humility—pride, unjustified power-grabbing, selfish ambition, partisanship, hatred—will melt away. What an overwhelming thought to consider that such humility can be ours because God Himself, through His Spirit, is teaching us to love as we yield to Him (1 Thess. 4:9).

    At every turn we see humility going hand in hand with godly love. Genuine love never turns its “freedom into an opportunity for the flesh” (Gal. 5:13). It will not do anything to cause another Christian to fall into sin or even be offended in his conscience (Rom. 14:21). Love that is from God will “be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven [us]” (Eph. 4:32).

    The greatest test of love and humility is the willingness to sacrifice for the good of others. As we have already seen in our study of humility, Jesus was the ultimate example of this (Phil. 2:5-8). Our supreme demonstration of humility is when we imitate Him: “We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren” (1 John 3:16).

    Suggestions for Prayer

    Pray for an occasion today to show some facet of biblical love to another person.
    If nothing develops today, keep praying that the Lord would make you alert for future opportunities.
    For Further Study

    First John 4 is a wonderful chapter on God’s love and its meaning for believers. According to the apostle, how can we know truth from error?
    What benefits derive from God’s love?

    1. However don’t eliminate the Lord’s command in Mt. 18, that if someone refuses to repent, “let him be to you as a pagan or a tax collector.” The Lord DOES NOT forgive us when we lie about our sin against someone, and slander that person behind their back to cover up the sin we committed. There’s a time and a place to separate ourselves from someone–“IF he repents, forgive him,” the Lord said!

  17. ISTM that Johnson has continuously enabled MacArthur’s most negative “fundamentalist/separatist” impulses.

    1. P.S. Public behavior allows for public comment. Julie Roys didn’t arrange for John MacArthur and Phil Johnson to sit in front of a huge audience and publicly rip Beth Moore. The apostle John publicly rebuked Diotrephes in 3rd John.

  18. I see where John MacArthur goes by the title of Dr. MacArthur and I have tried to find where he earned his Doctorates degree. I see where he received an honorary and not an earned doctorate degree whereas 6-7 years of study would be required. Does anyone know where he earned a doctorates degree or is this another false projection of who he is?

    1. John MacArthur does not have an earned doctorate. He does not address himself as Dr. MacArthur. Other people have mistakenly referred to him as Dr. MacArthur through the years which started the rumor that he is a doctor of theology. He likes to be called John.

  19. I began to listen to John MacArthur during my evening meal, late shift, working at the local VA in the early 90s. He was good then, and his teachings are equally as good now. We disagree in that I am a continuationist — although not any longer associating myself with the fringe extremists who are into the NRA, emotional ecstasy, etc.

    I read Strange Fire, whether JM wrote that or not, and the reply to Strange Fire by continuationists, yet I remain in agreement with some of JM’s views on concerning all the extremism and crazy antics, though unwilling to toss out the baby with the bath water.

    That he has not written a single book is not surprising to me, as I know pastors, nowhere in the economic class as JM, who also have their sermons rewritten by others to form books. One friend, a pastor, has “written” 85 books that way, with a good deal of help.

  20. I found the written podcast very informative.

    The “Got Questions” Website has Some interesting comments on the mandatory age retirement of The Levite priests.

    There are also some interesting comments in Matthews Henry’s Concise Commentary on the topic. See the Numbers 8:25 comment.

    Verses 5-26

    “…. All who expect to share in the privileges of the tabernacle, must resolve to do the service of the tabernacle. As, on the one hand, none of God’s creatures are his necessary servants, he needs not the service of any of them; so none are merely honorary servants, to do nothing. All whom God owns, he employs; angels themselves have their services.”

    Now 50 Years of age might be a little soon in modern times for a person to retire. But some churches have mandatory retirement age. It could be a good idea to have mandatory fequirements so new ideas can’t be brought in and old bad ones swept out? One person hogging the Lime light–and the money– does not seem to be a good idea. If you have the ability and mental capacity, go somewhere else to give your services Give someone else a chance at the old location!

  21. I was in a cult for 20 years and I had never heard of John McArthur before (I have been out for 6 years) but once he was on my radar, he very quickly struck me as a cult leader based on several things that I cant cover in 300 characters. In my opinion he is a very sinister chatacter and one to be avoided. This interview only serves to cement my previous opinions.

    1. Since money seems to play a part in this discussion it is interesting to note that miss Roys has a net worth of 1-5 million dollars. Ever share your cash with family miss Roys? That level of wealth makes you suspect, by your own standards. The thing about you “watch dogs” is sooner or later you go off the rails and see demons everywhere (pulpit&pen anybody?). You labor in much obscurity and feel unheard, so you wanna kick the shins of somebody who has done infinitely more for Christ’s church than you ever will just to be seen. Well, crusade on madam!, whilst the majority of of us who just recently learned of you will forget even your name in a months time.

      1. That’s humorous. Where did you get that information? If it’s the website below, it also says I was born in the U.S., but I was born in Zimbabwe, where my parents were missionaries. It says my parents are from San Antonio, Texas, but they’re from the East Coast. I work hard to verify my facts and wish others would do likewise.

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