Dr. Danny Avula, the head of Virginia’s COVID-19 vaccination effort, suspected he might have a problem getting pastors to publicly advocate for the shots when some members of his own church referred to them as “the mark of the beast,” a biblical reference to allegiance to the devil, and the minister wasn’t sure how to respond.
“A lot of pastors, based on where their congregations are at, are pretty hesitant to do so because this is so charged, and it immediately invites criticism and furor by the segment of your community that’s not on board with that,” Avula said.
Across the nation’s deeply religious Bible Belt, a region beset by soaring infection rates from the fast-spreading delta variant of the virus, pastors and churches vary in their messages about the need for parishioners to get vaccinated against COVID-19.
Some are hosting vaccination clinics and praying for more inoculations, while others are issuing fiery anti-vaccine sermons from their pulpits. Most are staying mum on the issue.
This was on display recently in metro Birmingham, where First Baptist Church of Trussville had an outbreak following a 200th anniversary celebration, which included a video greeting by Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey. The pastor promised more cleaning and face mask availability without mentioning anything about getting vaccinated.
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A few outspoken religious leaders have garnered crowds or media attention for their opposition to the vaccines, such as Tony Spell, who repeatedly defied COVID-19 restrictions to hold in-person services at the Baton Rouge, Louisiana, church where he is pastor. He has preached that vaccinations are “demonic” and vowed that the government will not “force us to comply with your evil orders.”
But Spell and those like him appear to be outliers, according to theologian Curtis Chang. Chang says the majority of ministers avoid the vaccine issue so they don’t inflame tensions in congregations already struggling with the pandemic and political division.
“I would say that the vast majority are paralyzed or silent because of how polarized it has been,” said Chang, who has pastored churches and is on the faculty at Duke Divinity School.
A survey by the National Association of Evangelicals found that 95% of evangelical leaders planned to get inoculated, but that number hasn’t translated into widespread advocacy from the pulpit, he said.
The disparity matters because vaccination rates are generally low across the Bible Belt, where Southern and Midwestern churchgoers are a formidable bloc opposing vaccination. Many Black and Latino people also haven’t been vaccinated.
A poll by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research in March showed that 40% of white evangelical Protestants said they likely would not get vaccinated, compared with 25% of all Americans, 28% of white mainline Protestants and 27% of nonwhite Protestants.
Some national voices including Black megachurch minister T.D. Jakes, evangelist Franklin Graham and former Southern Baptist Convention President J.D. Greear have taken public stances in favor of vaccinations. But there hasn’t been a sustained, unified push that could give local pastors “cover” to speak out themselves, Chang said.
First Baptist Trussville has taken multiple steps to guard against spreading the virus, including following public health guidelines and limiting in-person events, according to spokesman and business manager Alan Taylor. Yet when it comes to the vaccines, church leaders consider them “a personal choice,” he said.
“When I am asked personally, I say it was the right choice for me and my wife,” said Taylor, who contracted a relatively rare breakthrough case of COVID-19 despite having been vaccinated. “I firmly believe it helped when I became infected.”
The story is much the same in Mississippi and Georgia, where some churches are returning to online services and some pastors are quietly talking about the need for the COVID vaccine.
More than 200 pastors, priests and other church leaders from Missouri went further as cases exploded last month, signing a statement urging Christians to get vaccinated because of the biblical commandment to “love your neighbor as yourself.” Springfield Mayor Ken McClure said the region saw a big jump in vaccinations after the pastor of a large church used his sermon to tell parishioners it was the right thing to do.
Dr. Ellen Eaton, an infectious disease specialist at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, said churches could be effective at promoting vaccination as a way “to love your neighbors during this pandemic.”
“Many Southerners are very close to their pastors and church communities. Next to their personal physician, many here in Alabama routinely turn to their church leaders with health issues,” she said.
One pastor at a liberal United Methodist church in Birmingham issued a plea on social media for members to get vaccinated, while the minister at a moderate Baptist church nearby prayed during worship for divine intervention for more vaccinations.
“We pray, Lord, that there will be good judgment used and that people would see the need for the vaccine and that it would be available not only here in our own country but around the world and that that might stem the tide of this terrible, terrible virus,” said the Rev. Timothy L. Kelley of Southside Baptist Church.
Evangelical pastor Keven Blankenship was among those trying to walk that tightrope after COVID-19 invaded his independent church in suburban Birmingham, sickening three of his family members, among others. Initially he didn’t preach about the vaccines, considering it a personal choice.
But on a recent Sunday, during the first in-person services in a month, Blankenship revealed he had gotten his first shot and was due for a second.
“If you feel comfortable receiving it, I want you to receive it. If you don’t feel comfortable, I want you to talk to your doctor and you get your doctor’s guidance,” he told worshipers. “But I want you to do what you feel is the best thing for you and your family, and don’t be bullied into anything.”
Blankenship ended with an “Amen,” said almost as if a question. He was met by silence.
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100 Responses
Stand strong churches. Do not push these vaccines. They can call you all the names in the world. Do not do it. Push the content of the Bible. Protect the flock. God is God. Caesar is not God.
Pastors are to preach the message of Christ not give Healthcare advice. I took the vaccine but realize it is a personal choice. The Delta variant is much more contagious but less deadly. Its hypocritical to harass anyone who chooses not to get it as long as we ship thousands of COVID positive illegals all over the US.
We no longer have Trump to blame so it now falls to the “Evangelicals” who voted for him. These so called studies are very weak since the term “evangelical” is broad and poorly defined. I personally do not use it to describe myself to avoid being targeted by the FBI. Evangelicals are being blamed for everything from January 6th, COVID spread, racism, and probably climate change.
Its really sad since thousands if not millions of Christians are managing charity organizations providing aid to Haiti and Afghanistan (where our government abandoned many who are being hunted by the Taliban).These are only a few areas. Can we not talk about all the good we do?
Just check out who is getting Covid. It is the people who have taken the jab.
See https://ronaldthomaswest.com/2021/02/24/mrna-its-gene-therapy-not-a-vaccine/?fbclid=IwAR2un8cvASJ5IUcsVmMmvIJuJqzbCyJioT1s44MDesdpaweyL6aW–ID-Ew
I can tell from the link alone that the site you’re referring to is worthless since it promotes the claim that the Covid-19 vaccine isn’t a vaccine at all, but gene therapy. That is a lie straight from the pit of Hell.
Even if you’re foolish enough to believe it, there are other effective vaccines available that have nothing to do with mRNA technology, so it’s not an excuse to not get the vaccine.
Mike W,
The Moderna/Pitzer vaccine uses an mRNA segment (not the weakened or inactivated virus) to enter the cell, program the cell to produce a synthetic version of the virus spike protein, this synthetic spike protein mimics the spike protein on the virus and causes an antibody/inflammation cascade to lower you chance of getting sick if infected.
That is a gene therapy since we are using an mRNA segment, not the actual virus, to produce immunity. It is a non sterilizing vaccine which is not what you want to introduce into the population during a pandemic.
It does not prevent catching, transmission, or illness (regardless of the variant) and that does not meet the definition of a vaccine. A vaccine confers immunity against a specific illness, this treatment does not. It is better described as a prophylactic therapy based on gene programming.
There is also concern for ADE per NIH:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7645850/
Gor those who are interested in the claim that Andrew keeps making that the vaccines are gene therapy, here is an explanation of why they are not: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy
And here’s and article not from the Covid Era (B.C. – Before Covid) that talks about mRNA programming language for gene therapy.
https://www.outsourcing-pharma.com/Article/2018/11/02/Gene-therapy-de-coded-Utilizing-mRNA-programming-language-for-therapy-production
Why the fuss about calling it gene therapy if that’s how it was recognized prior to Covid? Why euphemize it? Does it make it scarier for people somehow? Doe it deligitimize the treatment? So it’s gene therapy. Big deal.
Peter, I’m not really clear on what you’re trying to establish with that article. The fact that mRNA may be used in gene therapy does not mean that it was used in that capacity in the COVID vaccines. The fact that both things utilize mRNA does not mean that they are the same type of treatment.
Here’s another one that calls it gene therapy. There seems to be a consistent message in articles dated this year that mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy. In prior years, not too much consistency. In fact, the consistent view prior to 2021 seems to be that mRNA vaccines are indeed considered gene therapy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7076378/
The claim that the vaccine is gene therapy have been responded to numerous times. Here’s a link to one such reply for those interested:
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy
The link I just sent in response to your other comment has already been posted by Andrew above. So my curiosity centers around why the “It’s not gene therapy” claims almost all seem to be dated this year. Probably a coincidence ????.
No dude, it’s you who are believing a lie! Are you not aware authorities in the medical field were or probably still are paying doctors to LIE and put on death certificates that their patients died of Covid when they did not !
Now that’s a LIE!
Drop the koolaid brutha!
I would be hesitant to blame one group for the vaccination problem. Only 40% of African Americans and Hispanics have been fully vaccinated. I would ascribe the issue of one of class not race or faith. It is no wonder vaccination rates are low. The failure of our leadership from Trump, Fauci and Biden made me hesitant to get the vax. It took reading, prayer and consultation w/ my physician before I did it. Less judgement and more facts would be helpful. However, this generation is more into snap judgements than fruitful dialogue.
This really grieves my heart, yet with all the accusations and labeling going back and forth, I don’t see this changing. I believe those who intended to get vaccinated have already done so, and now we just have to figure out a path forward with the numbers we’ve got. And unfortunately, it will take covid hitting close to home for people to tune out all the grandstanding and conspiracy theories (often hurled by people who got vaccinated themselves) and take the best course of action for themselves and their loved ones.
You said,
“And unfortunately, it will take covid hitting close to home for people to tune out all the grandstanding and conspiracy theories (often hurled by people who got vaccinated themselves) and take the best course of action for themselves and their loved ones.”
I do soooo much appreciate this. Covid has already run through my family and thankfully everyone recovered. I have very, very close family who have been vaccinated, and very, very close family who haven’t. But I believe that each person should be convinced for themselves and act accordingly.
Not pushing back against the lies being spread about Covid-19 vaccines is costing lives, including a bunch of those who were spreading the lies before they caught Covid-19 and died. There’s no need to make it personal, but the lies do need to be rebutted at every opportunity because the people spreading them do not care one iota what is true or not. They will merely repeat anything that fits with their agenda, regardless of the source.
It is very frustrating to see pastors backing off what should be a slam dunk message to their congregations — that getting vaccinated is the most Christlike thing you can do for your friends and neighbors in a time of public health crisis. If objections are raised about the risks, since when was doing the right thing by your loved ones, or doing the Christian thing guaranteed to be risk free? The Bible says the opposite many times.
If upsetting a vocal small minority of congregants is the price you pay for telling the truth about the efficacy of vaccines and the dangers of not taking Covid-19 serious, then it’s a price worth paying.
Mike W,
According to everyone pushing the vaccine the past year: If you are vaccinated then your life goes back to normal and you have nothing to fear from the virus.
So why are you so concerned for those that choose not to get the vaccine?
If we get the vaccine, our life does not fully go back to normal. The odds that we will not get COVID, or seriously I’ll from it, are significantly improved. We still have to go-exist with people who choose not to. Those who don’t get vaccinated increase the probability of the virus mutating and making the pandemic a more protracted situation.
Just like the flu mutates because people won’t get flu shots, although I haven’t heard that one before. Since flu has somehow been eradicated now, I guess we’ll no longer need to worry about flu shots.
Why do Christians say abortion is the murder of innocent lives, but have no issue pushing vaccines that use the murdered innocents blood/tissue cell lines to “save their lives”?
One way I think about it is like this. Suppose a friend of yours needed an organ transplant to save their life. If a murder victim happened to have the needed match, would it be immoral to use that organ? I would probably argue that it would be immoral not to use it. Using it doesn’t condone murder. But not using it only causes more avoidable pain and suffering. It would be different if a fetus was being harvested to produce the vaccine. That would be analogous to killing someone for their organs. But that is not the case here. No baby was aborted to make the vaccine. Hopefully that helps.
Loren M,
“would it be immoral to use that organ” If they were known to be against having their organs harvested then we have to respect their choice, it would be immoral to override their wishes. Side note: I have been apart of this process many times and the lengths that some organ harvesting departments will go after the family members to get consent is disturbing.
“No baby was aborted to make the vaccine.” Where did the cell lines for testing come from?
I would say “No recently aborted baby was used to help make the vaccine” would be more appropriate. It does not matter how long ago the tissue was acquired, it is still a cell line from aborted babies.
“It would be different if a fetus was being harvested to produce the vaccine.” Fetuses are being harvested everyday in abortion clinics and sold to drug/research companies in the name of medical research. Is this acceptable? Or does it only apply to older abortion tissue/cell lines/vaccine research?
Something to consider: They can do the research without aborted fetal tissue/cell lines, but choose not to. Why?
“No baby was aborted to make the vaccine. ”
I’ve been of overstating the truth, and I think this statement is too.
“Responding to a question by Moyers on how he came to fund “reproductive issues” Gates answered, “When I was growing up, my parents were always involved in various volunteer things. My dad was head of Planned Parenthood. And it was very controversial to be involved with that. And so it’s fascinating.”
http://www.physiciansforlife.org/bill-gates-father-head-of-planned-parenthood-inspired-his-abortion-population-control-views/
Funny how the “fact” checkers (paid shills) deny any Planned Parenthood connection with Gates. His statement was made 18 years ago. Things in the abortion industry haven’t gotten less evil as technology advances…I believe the depth of the wickedness is unfathomable.
https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/hhs-documents-organ-harvesting/
The COVID vaccines do not use tissue from aborted children. Some of them were tested using fetal cell lines derived from elective abortions that took place decades ago. For those interested in a thoughtful Christian articulation of the legitimacy of taking the vaccine, please see the following link: https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/explainer-covid-19-raises-concern-about-abortive-fetal-cells-in-medicine/
Another good source of information from solid Christians is:
https://www.christiansandthevaccine.com/
which contrasts with the misinformation, conspiracy theories, and false witness that comes out of the woodwork whenever the topic comes up on this blog. I long for the days when most Christians actually respected medical science, and anti-vax misinformation was mostly coming from the political and cultural left.
Right, don’t point us to the Word of God and prayer, meditation on truth to decide. No, instead go to Eric.com. The Church needs to wake up. If you seek the will of the Father, He is faithful. He will show you the way for YOU because I’ve never seen the word vaccine in scriptures. When He hears you, He will answer, then you will not fear death, nor will you insist on controlling others. Instead, you will point them to the process: seek God. In that way we will love each other and respect each individuals choices.
Good question about being pro-life. I see it differently. In this instance, I see some Christians disingenuous in their pro-life stance. By not getting vaccinated and, in some cases, out practicing social distancing, they are putting the vulnerable at risk of either death or long term health damage. In response, I’m sure many will cite numbers to support their view ( only .0004% of this or 1% of that), but at the end of the day they are still contributing to the greater problem.
Given the junk science used to arrive at their conclusions (this website says…my friend someone who heard…) I’m convinced the anti-bad position is just a proxy for power and influence. Some (not all) churches thrive on polarization. They want the government to be the enemy and for “the world” to be evil, so they can be more relevant as part of the solution.
If the motivation was to just show the kindness of loving that comes with being Christlike, vaccination wouldn’t be a topic.
I put this together for a fellow that came to buy something from me. When he asked me why I would not consider getting the covid shots, I gave him this as one of my reasons, that covid vaccines presently used in Canada are all directly or indirectly connected to abortion therefore it is not morally ethical to use them. For those who have used them, there needs to be repentance. The spiritual leaders are especially culpable because they refused to show leadership and light in the world when our world has fell into such darkness over the last year and half. My people perish for a lack of knowledge. Short and concise they can do their own research.https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/what-you-need-to-know-about-fetal-cell-lines-and-vaccines?utm_source=lifefacts
Jacob: You got to be kidding. Is this some kind of joke? You reference Ronald Thomas West as your expert source of infectious diseases? You are so deceived. Please get out of your black hole vortex of lies, and take off your blinders and seek the truth. It will free you.
Stanley: It appears that you didn’t even bother reading the link that Jacob put there, but rather judged the person who runs the site without reading the content. This is a HUGE problem I have noticed when folks are discussing and debating issues, especially in North America where we seem to give too much deference to “experts”. It sounds from your post that you haven’t actually read the interview; if that is the case, you would be wiser to stay quiet.
I don’t know Ronald Thomas West from anybody. But I read the interview that he posted looking for any truth that might be there. I have also read the paperwork of the various makers of the different jabs available, as well as followed the (constantly changing) WHO/CDC/FDA/NIH guidance the past almost 2 years.
The doctor who is being interviewed is logical and offers a plausible interpretation of what is actually in studies and what the pharma companies actually do claim.
Eli: The interviewee in that link has no idea of how vaccines actually work, and that’s because he doesn’t have scientific credentials. Unfortunately, with these situations (advanced science), you do actually need scientific training to understand the full implications of vaccinations and vaccines. My brother, a vaccine scientist, needed 8 years of dedicated post-graduate research (masters and PhD) with virology and molecular biology. His colleagues also have very similar qualifications. The folks developing the vaccine also have very rigorous training. AstraZeneca, Serum Institute of India, and Moderna (not sure about the last one) are not making a profit from this pandemic. Serum Institute and Bharath Biotech (the two biggest vaccine manufacturers in India) are selling the vaccine at cost to the Indian government, and are only making a profit in sales to private hospitals, the latter of which has 25% of all manufactured doses.
This lack of credentials of the interviewee can be seen in this example: the interviewee claims that there is no causal link between Covid-19 and the SARS-Cov2 virus. Furthermore, he claims that Covid-19 is a combination of the flu and other symptoms. Clearly, he hasn’t been to India where there’s been an outbreak of the flu that left 4 million+ people dead and millions others starving for oxygen, the likes of which have never been seen in this or the previous generation. If you don’t believe me, ask my wife, a medical doctor. She’ll connect you with her friends from med school who worked 24/7 literally, and managing 200+ patients by themselves, often without competent nursing staff. In all these cases, a positive test for the SARS-Cov2 virus.
“… he hasn’t been to India where there’s been an outbreak of the flu that left 4 million+ people dead and millions others starving for oxygen…”
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
Last updated: August 18, 2021, 04:47 GMT
India
Coronavirus Cases:
32,285,101
Deaths:
432,552
Recovered:
31,478,405
Daily Cases Graph – Daily Deaths Graph
Andrew: Cases in India are severely underreported, it’s not like in the States or Canada, which has a more robust healthcare system, where cases are traced much more effectively. The other factor that comes into play is politics. States ruled by parties aligned with the current federal ruling party test lesser (hence less Covid cases reported, sometimes 30 cases are missed for 1 case reported). Check this report out by Indian researchers: https://cgdev.org/publication/three-new-estimates-indias-all-cause-excess-mortality-during-covid-19-pandemic
The TL;DR (too long, didn’t read) version: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/07/20/1018438334/indias-pandemic-death-toll-estimated-at-about-4-million-10-times-the-official-co
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/07/20/1018438334/indias-pandemic-death-toll-estimated-at-about-4-million-10-times-the-official-co
It is widely acknowledged that the Indian government has (deliberately) hugely undercounted the toll of Covid in the country. Experts have estimated that the “official” reported death toll is too low by about a factor of 10, which would get you to about 4 million.
Wikipedia quotes a range of between 3.4 and 4.9 million.
Of course India has 3 or 4 times the population of the U.S., but still proportionally the death toll there has been larger, due both to a poorer health care system and to bad choices by their Hindu nationalist government.
Ben George,
In this case you are saying the official numbers are wrong.
There are the same claims of manipulation in the rest of the world in the following:
The Covid death numbers not differentiating between dying Of Covid and With Covid.
Over reporting of infections based on high PCR cycle tests.
Numbers in the VAERS databases under reporting the adverse reactions to the vaccines.
Percentage of new infections in the fully vaccinated.
Number of patients in the hospital.
So do we accept the official numbers as fact? Or do we hold the same standard that you are applying to India?
“The other factor that comes into play is politics. States ruled by parties aligned with the current federal ruling party test lesser (hence less Covid cases reported, sometimes 30 cases are missed for 1 case reported). ”
It is no different in the USA, Canada, Europe, etc … politics, corruption, agendas, greed, ego, media bias … all play a part on how information is given to us and how we are manipulated. We are not above it. We need to stop lying to ourselves about being above reproach in our institutions honesty.
Based on how the media has pushed the infection/death numbers: Why would they under report in India? What purpose does that serve?
I question the numbers cited and again question the authenticity of pro-life position. When it comes to the possibility of an unborn fetus being used there is strong moral outrage, but when actual people die, they are just statistical numbers thrown around.
@Tony said: “When it comes to the possibility of an unborn fetus being used there is strong moral outrage, but when actual people die, they are just statistical numbers thrown around.”
THIS.
This is what gets me outraged about the pro-life movement. It’s full of passion for unborn babies that turns to downright indifference once they are born. And it’s not just about the vaccine. When it comes to addressing the lack of quality healthcare for poor moms and children, economic inequalities in school funding (leaving poor children with poor schools – and unhealthy meals while in school), the ridiculous costs of adoption (that puts it out of reach of so many loving middle-class families), the rising costs of child care, violence in poor communities, and more…the “pro-life” movement gets quiet or full of excuses.
I thought “pro-life” was for the unborn until death.
This issue is deeply grieving me at this point in time as people are getting so divided and over the top paranoid about something that is as clear and as plain as anything has ever been. In May the country hit a 50 percent vaccination rate. There was no news of 10’s or 100’s of thousands of people around the world having serious reactions to the vaccines. There was news of many people going into the hospital and still many dying. So what is the real risk here? Millions vaccinated verses millions dying from a disease. At that same time news coming from everywhere around the world in countries with high vaccination rates that those getting hospitalized with COVID are almost entirely unvaccinated. So where is your evidence that vaccines are poisons? And where is the evidence that they do not work? The stats are as clear as can be. They are having a positive effect on keeping people out of the hospitals as they were designed to do. There is no debating this without making a bunch of b.s. up. The virus is orders of magnitude more dangerous than any of the vaccines. If you want the safe bet, go get vaccinated. The other choice is much, much, much more dangerous. This is not bullying. I am encouraging people to choose the road that is less dangerous. In doing so you may be saving the lives of others. It is good for you and for others. You can choose not to, but then it might not turn out well for you and for others.
A friend of mine told me about two months ago that there was no scientific evidence that the vaccines work and so he was choosing not to get the shot. That is the opposite of the truth. Three weeks ago he emailed us and told us that he was going for a COVID test. The following week he said he was sick at home and his wife was in the hospital. That was repeated again last week and now, today, he is asking for prayer for his wife still in the hospital. So life is what it is, but did it really have to be that way? Will this be your story in the coming months?
Excellent point Ralph. There are not widespread stories about fatal responses to the vaccine. There has been a consistent stream of news about the very real impacts of the virus overwhelming medical systems around the world. If there was a systemic ( of 1-off) complication with the vaccine, that would be self-evident. Y now.
Mark Noll’s excellent 1994 book, “The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind,” discusses how one of the contributing factors to poor habits of thought among evangelicals is dispensational theology. The claims about the vaccine being the mark of the beast seem to be a real life example of this negative influence. It’s paranoia rather than careful thinking.
As a walking-wounded survivor of The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay and Jack Chick (back when Henry Kissinger was PROVEN from SCRIPTURE to be The Antichrist of the Week), I agree with all this.
When The World Ends Tomorrow and It’s All Gonna Burn, don’t expect anyone to make plans or even take precautions. Or anything except high-pressure Witnessing to fear and guilt-manipulate as many Souls (NOT people) in The Rapture Lifeboat. “This World Is Not My Home, I’m Just Passing Thru…”
Where I am, drive-time radio calls such churches “Jesus Christ, Supersperader”; when our county board of supervisors proposed a mask mandate and the council chambers filled up like the Capitol on January 6th, “The Mark of the Beast types” became the on-air shorthand name for the anti-mask/anti-vaxxers.
I don’t think a typical pretribulation rapture dispensationalist is even supposed to be around for the mark of the beast. Perhaps I need a refresher or how this all works.
Well, given that Mr. Noll’s view of the Bible is informed by his own presuppositions, is he now the measure of what constitutes the scandalous among pastors, theologians and those within the halls of Christian academia, no oxymoron intended?
He’s the historian who says trained scientists who believe in a young earth are suicidal dupes who fell for the machinations of an Ellen G. White devotee. These poor benighted schlubs should’ve known they were carrying water for the Seventh Day Adventist church the entire time. But he knows better. He’s seen the science, and anyone who says differently is selling something like dispensationalism, anti-vax propaganda and holy silver-infused skin cream to keep the mark of the beast from accidentally getting on you.
I don’t think Professor Noll would call himself the measure of what constitutes anything. Frankly, the question of whether he is, is completely irrelevant. The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, is a serious work of historical scholarship in which Noll advances an argument about intellectual life among American evangelicals, an argument that many of us find compelling and relevant over a quarter century after it’s publication. Have you actually read it?
I don’t have to agree with every part of the book in order to appreciate it and benefit from it’s argument. I made an observation about something that stuck out to me from the book and how I see it connecting to a current tendency among a significant number of evangelicals. In response, you felt the need to leave a defensive, snarky, dismissive, largely irrelevant reply which essentially amounts to both a straw man and an ad hominem attack.
I’m responding to both comments in this one
You said,
“Mark Noll’s excellent 1994 book, “The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind,” discusses how one of the contributing factors to poor habits of thought among evangelicals is dispensational theology. The claims about the vaccine being the mark of the beast seem to be a real life example of this negative influence. It’s paranoia rather than careful thinking.”
Since you mentioned Mr. Noll’s work as authoritative, my response, I’ll own the snark, called into question his own beliefs and credibility. Do you believe he is fair and measured in his writings? Did he mince words with his article in “First Things” with the thoughtful title “Ignorant Armies”. It’s his statement of faith regarding how he views young earthers. Did you read it?
Is Mr. Noll, a historian, allowed wide latitude to mince words with scientists who have a different view of creation? Is he credible telling them authoritatively that their views spring from the theology of what many consider a cult, end of story?
Why should I take his word for anything? The idea that dispensationlist evangelicals are poor thinkers because people bought Hal Lindsey’s book and think Tim LaHaye’s eschatology is the stuff of genius (my exemplars as representative of the group)is his own strawman. Really low hanging fruit though and easy enough to prove.
Isn’t it more the case that most people are poor thinkers? It’s not taught in schools. Hasn’t poor thinking been part.of the curse since the beginning?
Or would you say I’m missing the point, and that he has many thoughtful insights about religion in America?
I’ll allow for all of the above.
Will you? Or is ad hominem your “go to” as well?
Your words:
“Chuck Baldwin is not someone I would look to for reliable information on anything.”
First, I don’t consider my comment about Baldwin an ad hominem. I specifically worded it the way I did to make clear that I was expressing my own personal opinion about Mr. Baldwin. In my opinion, his anti-Zionist (dare I say anti-Semitic?) conspiracy mongering is enough reason for me to dismiss him from further consideration.
I just read the Noll piece in First Things and I really have no problem with it. I’m not sure why you made such an issue about the Seventh Day Adventist comments in the article, since they seem like a minor portion of the article to me and are clearly a part of the history of creation science. I found the article sympathetic to the concerns of the creationists, even if it was ultimately critical of their enterprise. It certainly isn’t the dismissive and condescending piece your initial response to me implies.
It’s also hard not to notice how someone like Barbara Disrow can come on here pointing an accusing finger at almost all of the churches and pastors in America and making completely over the top end times claims about the vaccine, and you have nothing to say in response to that, but you’ll mince words trying to discredit Mark Noll. Barbara’s claims are pretty much an example par excellence of exactly what I observed in my initial comment.
What constitutes a “careful thinker” exactly? And when does one get to include themselves in the “careful thinker” club?
If I accept Mark Noll’s book as an example of “careful thinking” because he went out to Wild Country Safari and observed some evangelicals in their feral state, am I allowed to ask what exactly he proved?
Did he make some novel discovery about brainwave activity when feral evangelicals get excited?
I’ll throw in the young earthers because he said there wasn’t much of a mind within evangelicalism. So by extension, young earthers are to be pitied for their strident literalism and anti-intellectualism.
To me, he sounds ashamed to have any association with them. His “sympathy” is that reserved for the poor relation or the truly misguided who are spoken of in hushed tones. His sympathy comes across as Richard Dawkins but with the personality of Mr. Rogers. While telling them they’re wrong, at least he’s neighborly.
But I ask again, what exactly did he discover? That people are fallen, flighty, eccentric, brutish and a host of other bad things? God beat him to it.
I don’t know. Maybe some governing body should come up with a way to color-code people according to their “careful thinking” capabilities. Then we can know in advance who and what to disregard. That should solve everything.
Sorry. To me this is just more word mincing and an attempt to discredit the messenger because you don’t like what he said. If you want to know how Noll came to his conclusions read the book.
@ Gordon Hackman
Oh, I believe I read enough. In the end what I like or dislike is irrelevant. People are going to put their thoughts down, have them bound up by a publisher, endorsed by others and all within then has the polished sheen of authoritative respectability. But why not? It’s the job of “careful thinkers” to deduce whether someone is preaching to the choir.
Yes, but there is a process for getting a serious work published as well as criterion for serious scholarship. You seem to be implying that all published work is on the same level in terms of credibility, as if Professor Noll writing a work of scholarship and having it go through the editing process at a serious publisher were on the same level as a conspiracy theorist self-publishing a book, and that the only difference between them is that one has an edifice that falsely bestows credibility upon it. That’s just not the case.
So official sanction from within the hallowed halls of academia is the criterion to judge the veracity of thoughts, ideas, claims? It’s the place for the truly serious minded, the careful thinkers?
You can go to RetractionWatch.com and find quite a treasure trove of “academic” hogwash in multiple fields. Then you have Alan Sokal and James Lindsey et al.
To the point, just how careful are works of scholarship? I’m not implying that all scholarly works are inherently flawed somehow. I will say that intellectual honesty didn’t make its home solely within the walls of academia.
Sorry Peter. I ran out of steam for this conversation last Saturday.
Me as well. It wasn’t like I was trying to have the last word. The old saying, “When the horse is dead…”.
I do want you to know that I enjoy engaging with you. You do make me think and are very articulate. That’s my long winded way of saying thank you for responding. I also hope my comments have not been a source of anger. That’s never been my intent. I believe we both have very strong ideas and opinions. I’ve been told before I can be stubborn. Go figure.
Thanks Peter. I really appreciate that. The exchange has been challenging and thought provoking for me. Blessings.
I mean are not we all grown adults that are able to make our own decisions if we are going to either take the shot or not take it? I don’t need to go to church to hear what my pastor has to say about it ! Unreal what this has become.
Here is interesting research and a helpful chart of the research, testing, and final vaccine product. It helped me make my prayerful decision. https://lozierinstitute.org/update-covid-19-vaccine-candidates-and-abortion-derived-cell-lines/
I find it highly disturbing how many of these comments confirm the stereotype that evangelical Christians spread both misinformation and fear about the vaccine. I thought we had freedom of fear…oh how the argument has changed…
Seriously, folks, as a pro-life follower of Christ I will willingly lay down my life for others. So while the vaccine may potentially have unforeseen sideaffects, it has been shown to slow down the spread and decrease the severity of the disease, giving me more time and a more powerful witness to my unbelieving family and colleagues.
“At that same time news coming from everywhere around the world in countries with high vaccination rates that those getting hospitalized with COVID are almost entirely unvaccinated.”
Source?
In Israel:
“Israel’s Ministry of Health on Wednesday, Aug. 11, reported that 694 people were being treated in hospitals because of coronavirus (COVID-19) – including 400 patients in serious condition.
Among those in serious condition, 64 percent were fully vaccinated while 32 percent were not. This means that there were twice as many fully vaccinated people in serious condition because of the disease compared to those who’re not vaccinated.”
You need to see the full context for those numbers. Here’s a recent article from Israel showing just how effective the vaccines are:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-covid-graphs-prove-vaccines-works-delta-pfizer-1.10101640
If you look at the “Severe Cases By Age Group” chart you can see that over the age of 50, the severe case rate (per 100k) is many times higher among the unvaccinated than it is among the vaccinated. This is per capita rate, not the overall numbers. That’s the important difference.
The *only* reason why there might be more people in hospital who are vaccinated then there are unvaccinated is because in Israel, the vast majority of the at-risk people have been vaccinated, so even if the risk of a severe case is much smaller, the virus has far more targets to choose from among the vaccinated in Israel.
So claims that the vaccine is not effective based on the raw numbers of hospitalizations (assuming they are correct) are simply untrue, and are dangerously misleading. You are far better off getting vaccinated.
Mr. Jesperson said: “There was no news of 10’s or 100’s of thousands of people around the world having serious reactions to the vaccines.”
So, no news equates it didn’t happen? Research how only a handful of corporations control the media. Ps…don’t use google for your search engine. Try swisscows or similar.
“So where is your evidence that vaccines are poisons? And where is the evidence that they do not work? The stats are as clear as can be.”
I’m glad you asked those questions, but I’m not confident my response will be allowed through the censorship filter on this site.
Simply research the supposed measles virus from a perspective outside the controlled narrative and you’ll see a different story of what “success” actually was. You seem to be naive to the fact that in America the corporations with the most money and power (chemical and pharma) get to determine what information is fed to the majority.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/yogaesoteric.net/en/amp/mainstream-media-banned-from-reporting-on-german-courts-mmr-vaccine-ruling/
https://christianobserver.net/the-ddt-polio-sham-polio-caused-by-pesticide-exposure/
What litmus test do you use to decide which media sources you trust and which you don’t? How do I know your sources aren’t controlled by some corporation seeking to profit?
That goes not just both ways but in probably every direction given the level of confusion that seems to be the only constant right now.
Yes, absolutely. Remember the fuss over the rare side effect they discovered in the AZ and J&J vaccines that caused blood clots and killed a handful of people? That only had a 1 in 250,000 risk of happening, yet several countries stopped using the AZ vaccine immediately, and the rest changed their guidance to prevent those at higher risk (under the age of 40) from taking it, and providers were warned to watch for the signs of it happening.
If multiple countries took drastic measures to prevent a 1 in 250,000 side effect from happening, why do you think it is at all plausible that any corporation could possibly hide something far far worse from dozens of governments and independent academic research teams that have been monitoring the vaccines closely from day one?
Yes, corporations have been known to lie about their drugs, but this is the stuff of conspiracy theories. The public scrutiny these vaccines have had over the last year is unprecedented.
Mike, seek and ye shall find. You may not like Jon, but look up his sources. He’s not pulling this out of thin air.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2021/08/jon-rappoport/massive-fraud-in-reporting-vaccine-injuries-withheld-data-pretense-of-safe-and-effective/
Also, are you aware of the ongoing court case involving Dr Shiva, big tech and the govt? He was placed on a list and was in the top six to be censored. It seems most people don’t have the emotional and spiritual maturity to wrestle with the FACT that our own gov’t wants to silence the people.
Shiva exposed the system of science these criminals are using and have been using for a hundred years to manipulate us deeper into slavery.
https://rumble.com/vkrskx-dr.shiva-slams-tucker-trump-exposes-govt-big-tech-censorship.html
Both Rappoport and Shiva are known promoters of conspiracy theories. Some of the stuff Rappoport has promoted like past life regression and paranormal abilities is really out there. I wouldn’t look to either of these guys for accurate information on the COVID situation.
Gordon,
Did you actually read the article and see he is primarily quoting other sources?
People who simply dismiss info with the “conspiracy theory” label generally are showing they either haven’t read to understand the argument/info, and/or are unable to provide substance to refute said info.
“Gaslighting and Peer Pressure…
The fact of the matter is that the terms “Conspiracy Theorist” and “Conspiracy Theory” serve to remove someone’s argument from the debate without refuting the substance of the argument itself.
Evidence for factual conspiracies is widespread. The “conspiracy theorist” slur is clever, and used in a devious way. It serves as a disincentive to those who would consider conspiracy, treachery and the use of false flags. “I don’t even want to think about what you have to say. So shut your mouth or we’ll make sure everyone knows you’re a lunatic.” “Only a crazy person would say that… you’re not crazy are you?
Unfortunately gaslighting is now the most common tool of nefarious actors who wish to sway public opinion in the USA. People demanding an accounting of the last election have been decried for making “allegations without evidence.” This is a clear example of gaslighting. Evidence abounds, but a fair hearing and evaluation of that evidence has not occurred. Eye witnesses abound as well as statistical evidence and even videos. The main stream media continues to promote a “no evidence” narrative. The repeat it as often as they can. The reason they do this is simple: Gaslighting works.“
http://www.liverede.com/editorial/conspiracy-theorist-gaslighting-america/
Francis Crick believed that aliens colonized earth via panspermia and was high on LSD when he allegedly discovered DNA. Sounds suspect to me.
Nazi SS officer Wernher Von Braun was also instrumental in getting our space program off the ground. He was also instrumental in the Nazi rocket program that dropped a lot of V-2 rockets on Britain and killed a lot of people. That’s a lot of baggage to carry around.
There’s rocket scientist/researcher Jack Parsons of Cal-Tech who was also a devotee of occultist Aleister Crowley. He once attempted with L. Ron Hubbard to raise the mother of the antichrist in a ritual I won’t describe. Suffice to say, I don’t think his mother would have approved.
And Nicola Tesla knew his life’s work was over when his favorite pigeon flew into his hotel room and died. The light shining from its eyes told Tesla that it was dying. That’s a little weird.
None of these facts have a single thing to do with any scientific discoveries these individuals made or the body of work they amassed. However, if you wanted to, you could cast doubt on their work because of the bizarre nature of their private lives, their political affiliations, or unscientific beliefs.
The difference is that the work those men did stood on it’s own apart from the strange things they believed. A better analogy here, especially in the case of Rappoport, is the boy who cried wolf. He’s given us good reason not to trust his reporting of facts and events precisely because we know he has a predilection for promoting things that are conspiratorial and false.
You said,
“The difference is that the work those men did stood on it’s own apart from the strange things they believed. A better analogy here, especially in the case of Rappoport, is the boy who cried wolf. He’s given us good reason not to trust his reporting of facts and events precisely because we know he has a predilection for promoting things that are conspiratorial and false.”
I absolutely agree with you about the work of the men I mentioned. Their personal views, beliefs, etc. have no bearing on whether there discoveries were true or false.
You know what’s interesting about your analogy is that one day the boy actually did encounter a big, bad wolf, didn’t he? Then there are the analogies about blind squirrels and broken clocks. That’s not an endorsement of anyone. Just an observation.
Theranos ring any bells? Bernie Madoff would have been proud.
I want to know the Roy’s report stance on the covid scamdemic and bioweapon Vaccines. It seems to be critical of churches that don’t follow the covid narrative. Rare as they are. For a seeker of truth that is very disappointing, I guess when the parishioners start dropping of auto immune disorders from the v maybe people will wake up. So many doctors have come out exposing this bioweapon and genocide. Why are Christians so deluded?
I take positions on matters of abuse and corruption, and those directly related to the Gospel. I don’t take positions on vaccines or pandemics. My job is to report both sides of debatable issues and allow Christians to use their discernment.
The reason pastors are mainly silent on the bioweapon their parishioners are taking without being warned is because the 501c3 churches have
Mostly all taken the stimulus govt. money. For 2020 and 2021. Which makes them state puppets of the agenda. They sought their provision from Caesar. That is related to the gospel. No one makes a peep against the state agenda except a blessed few. How is that shepherding the flock ? Without warning about the wolves pushing the vaxx from the pulpits. The mask, the vaxx, social distancing ,christians swallowed wholesale. The pastors care more about their tithes coming in and not offending the Vaxxed tithers than exposing evil. The churches have collapsed like a deck of cards to the Freemasons in control of this agenda.
“…and allow Christians to use their discernment.”
And for that, I thank you.
When are we supposed to start dropping from autoimmune disorders?
Dr. Peter Mcullough, cardiologist from Texas, Dr. Mike Yeadon ,former VP of Phizer, Dr. David Martin, Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, Dr. Hodgekinson from Canada, report the vaxx delivers the synthetic spike protein from the virus which never leaves the body but replicates through the bloodstream , continuously becoming a factory for the virus. Priming the body to overreact when the flu season hits. Antibodies on steroids destroying its own cells. Passes through the blood brain barrier. Causing neurological disease. They are experimenting on us .that is why the Vaxxed are getting the virus. The vaxx makers have no liability and don’t care who suffers and dies from it. Now they want children to get it. The military will be useless in an invasion. People injured and paralyzed. “Childrenshealthdefense.org” have no recourse but go fund me. To raise money to pay their medical bills. It is pure evil. Please recognize the enemy. They want to kill people off. It is diabolical and most Americans are paralyzed to do nothing,
Worth a read from NIH:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7645850/
“Three presidents reject covid vaccines :three presidents die”. Newsletter July 15 by Chuck Baldwin on liberty fellowship.com All his newsletters are worth reading . The covid scam is the spirit of antichrist, and churches are under the delusion. I know Julie Roy’s never posts my comments but hopefully she will read them.
I am surprised you posted this. Thank you. I appreciate all your reporting on the misogynist churches . I have read Jon Zens and Wade Burleson and have satisfied my search for the truth about the agenda against women . This topic is important .but the government propaganda armed mainstream media has lied consistently to the people. The AP is a biased reporting service. You can read the bias in this report about churches. It is pro covid government narrative though so subtly insinuated. MSM is paid off by big pharma. And the churches controlled by Zionists. The flock better get strong and follow Jesus alone.
How has the mainstream media shaped this message? This isn’t unique to just the US. If there is a conspiracy, then every world government has to be in on it.
Chuck Baldwin is not someone I would look to for reliable information on anything.
Some questions. Will the vaccine add a single day to the time we have been allotted by God?
Will taking the vaccine catch God unawares, and someone will live longer than the number of their days?
Will not taking the vaccine reduce by a single second our time allotted here within the bounds of God’s sovereignty?
Is it remotely possible that souls will go into eternity without a divine appointment? Did Covid catch God by surprise? (Open theism anyone?)
If I die from Covid, can anyone argue that I wasn’t always going to die from Covid? (Unless you’re an open theist.)
My confession is I’ve already answered these questions for myself.
This kind of reasoning is just silly. It’s like saying ” Will wearing a seatbelt add a single day to my allotted time?”, or “Will eating healthy and exercising add a single day to my allotted time?” The answer, of course, is no, but accepting the sovereignty of God is not a justification for fatalism.
I assure you I’m not fatalistic. I’m actually quite fastidious about all of the things you mention and more. Due diligence is something I try to practice with just about every aspect of life. Oh, and I also look both ways before crossing a street. However, I also eat up to 2 dozen eggs per week so surely my days are numbered. Well, actually they are.
Because of life experiences, I’ll wager I’ve had more vaccines than most, but that’s just my fatalistic view of life coming out there.
Now that I earned “this is just silly” points, I believe I made my point.
I’m not sure you made your point. Given your last post, you’re reasoning for not taking the vaccine given above, seems inconsistent with the way you’ve described living the rest of your life. So you may not be a fatalist, but your stated reason above for not taking the vaccine snacks of fatalism.
And perhaps I’ve been just as fastidious but not in ways that would meet your approval. I do take precautions in multiple situations. For instance, if I cut down a large tree the precautions list is fairly long.
It’s also self-evident that lifestyle choices have a cumulative effect over time isn’t it? A lifetime of poor lifestyle choices often results in a cascade of chronic disease. I believe you would agree but maybe not.
But it’s not about whether I approve of the particulars in which you’ve been fastidious, it’s about the consistency of your reasoning above.
Gordon H,
From your source:
“Messenger RNA is genetic material, so in that sense, the vaccines are genetically based therapy.
But the FDA classifies them as vaccines, not gene therapy.”
So your claim is based on a label given by the FDA, not it’s mechanism of action for treatment.
“The vaccines made by Pfizer and Moderna use tiny oily envelopes called lipid nanoparticles to slip a single strand of genetic material called messenger RNA (mRNA) into our cells.
The Johnson & Johnson vaccine is slightly different. It uses double-stranded DNA inserted into a common, but inert virus called an adenovirus. This DNA also contains the instructions for building the spike protein. Once inside the cell, these instructions are read and translated into mRNA.”
“The mRNA chains are basically work orders that spell out the instructions for making the spike proteins that stud the outside of the coronavirus that cases COVID-19.”
The “vaccine” slips mRNA (a genetic code) into the cell, joins other bits of mRNA and this forms a chain of instructions that “programs” production of spike proteins.
P&M use mRNA and J&J use double stranded DNA, which are gene segments creating instructions on a genetic level. That is gene therapy.
It’s not gene therapy because it makes no changes to the person’s DNA. Utilizing DNA as a delivery method is not the same thing.
Gordon H,
“It’s not gene therapy because it makes no changes to the person’s DNA. Utilizing DNA as a delivery method is not the same thing.Gene therapy does not require modification of your DNA.”
Gene therapy only requires the use of genetic sequences (or genes) to produce a response in your body. In this case mRNA programs your cell to produce spike proteins. A gene sequence is used this, so gene therapy, or we can can call it a gene treatment if that sounds better.
You are describing a specific type of gene therapy where they attempt to reprogram your DNA to fight disease, reverse a genetic defect, or reprogram cancer cell DNA to self destruct.
Loren M,
I do not know if this helps or not, but this is how I approach the rats nest of information these days, not in any specific order:
Do they resort to propaganda techniques to prove their point?
Is their information based on fear/shaming tactics (based on hand picked research points) or facts/evidence based on the full research?
Do they allow questions?
Do they answer questions yes, no, why? Or do they deflect with a long word salad that doesn’t answer anything?
Do they easily provide a resource where you can view the full research for yourself?
Does it sound like a child trying not to admit to something?
Do they condescend when talking?
Are they patronizing?
Do they have a financial interests in their point of view being “true”?
Does it sound like truth or a lie?
Most importantly pray on it, ask God to show you, and be willing to accept you might be right, wrong, misguided, or not given an answer. Be thankful when wrong/misguided, turn to scripture with no answer, and peaceful when right.
Anything being claimed in the medical/research/Biotech fields must be based in truth, not “maybe’s, could be’s, might be’s”, that is theory based science/medicine and dangerous. It does or doesn’t, otherwise they do not know and should say so.
A good resource to read is the books by Edward Bernays, “the father of modern propaganda” and nephew of Sigmund Freud. It helps spot the techniques used by media/industry.
Some good thoughts, Andrew.
People need to wake up to the conspiracy in the medical field regarding viruses – especially when the cdc has admitted over the last several months via FOIA requests they have NO isolates of any of the so called viruses. Read their responses for yourself.
https://www.drrobertyoung.com/post/cdc-now-admits-no-gold-standard-for-the-isolation-for-any-virus
You might as well send a request to Julie to prove the existence of the commenters on this website. You observe that existence through our interaction on this host. Proving our existence independent from this comment board would be superfluous and a poor use of time and resources.
Or you can believe this comment board is a hoax, since you’ve never observed any of the commenters apart from this platform.
Loren M,
If your comment was to me:
I am not speaking as to the authenticity of the people on this forum, I am referring to source of the information presented to us by the people on this forum, how this information was presented to them on TV/internet/print, and how the “experts/leaders” represent their facts.
If you post a link to information, that is counter to what I have found, I read it, research the claim as far as I am able, and compare it to the information I have previously researched. Is the new information opinion? Is it fact? Does it contradict previous medical fact? How? Is it doublespeak? What is the intention of the information being presented? Is it objective or subjective? Is the source (not the person posting it) trustworthy or does it have a history of bending/twisting the facts? etc …
I expect anyone I interact with to apply the same standards to my “facts” and to challenge me with any mistakes or provable misinformation. When I am wrong I learn and grow. I may be wrong, but I am not lying when I present what I currently believe to be the truth, based on my research of the research.
I do not believe anyone in this forum is a liar, only presenting the facts they as they have researched them to this point. Sometimes our facts are correct, incorrect, propaganda, distortions of perception based on presentation, half truths, etc… the only way to grow as a community is to challenge each other when we see inconsistency in presented information, compare how it holds up to provable facts/evidence (currently and historically), accept that we might not have enough information for an answer, and have to agree to disagree until new facts come to light.
I will call out opinion that does not reference a specific source or sources, Gaslighting, DARVO, shame/fear tactics, personnel attacks on someones level of Christianity based on information being presented because of the source, and not if the information is factual. I expect to be held to the same standard.
Does everyone vet their information the same way? No, this is why everyone has a different “truth” to the current situation. It is how we attempt to navigate the truth, lies, deceptions, and half truths (presented to us by media), with each other to find the truth that is important.
It is an emotional time for all of us, but we need to put that aside or we are controlled by fear, not facts.
Sorry Andrew, my reply was intended as a response to Kenly’s article claiming all viruses are hoaxes. The article’s author makes a big deal about isolating viruses from their host to prove their existence. Sorry for not better clarifying.
From the beginning of this pandemic Fauci has been publicly stating that there’s a lot we don’t know about this virus and that it takes time to observe and learn. That strikes me as an honest and reasonable response to something never seen before. Nobody is saying the vaccines are perfect. Waiting for a perfect vaccine has unacceptable consequences from a public health perspective. Airplanes aren’t perfect either. But I do trust that the systems in place have done their due diligence in minimizing the risks of flying. But they can’t tell me with absolute certainty that the plane won’t crash. If we waited for the perfect airplane, no one would ever fly. As the saying goes, perfect is the enemy of good.
How many years were airplanes tested and flight engineering perfected before they were viewed as viable conveyances for the general public?
We didn’t go from Kitty Hawk to Delta airlines in 2 years.
Loren, have you done much research into conflicts of interest and nepotism surrounding Fauci, his wife Dr. Christine Grady, or Walensky and her husband?
They are much, much bigger than any we’ve seen in the Christian church debacles.
https://ahrp.org/nih-scientists-caught-concealing-millions-in-royalties-for-experimental-treatments-ap/
https://gellerreport.com/2021/08/covid-payoffs-cdc-director-walenskys-husband-received-5-million-in-hhs-grants-and-thats-just-the-start-of-it.html/
https://salmartingano.com/2020/07/dr-fauci-expert-or-co-conspirator-time-for-a-second-look/
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/conflict-of-interest-faucis-wife-runs-bioethics-department-at-nih/
Jesus often spoke in parables for those that had eyes to see and ears to hear. Here’s a modern day one pertinent to the situation at hand.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bBXYxs-zchg