“If I could get all the White Christians in the room — all of you, all together — and I could teach you one thing, it would be that racism is not solely an issue of attitudes or interpersonal relationships, but racism has its doing in institutional manifestations.”
Historian and bestselling author Jemar Tisby made that declaration as he spoke last Saturday in a room of mostly White Christians. Speaking at First Baptist Church in Columbia, Missouri, as part of the church’s 200th anniversary celebration, Tisby encouraged the congregants to take institutional steps toward fighting racism.
Since racism has institutional manifestations, Tisby explained that “therefore we need to operate not only on the individual and interpersonal level but also on the systemic, institutional level.” Such an understanding of racism, however, is not always well received.
“That’s controversial for a lot of people. That’s what they’re arguing against when they cry ‘critical race theory’ or ‘wokeism,’” said Tisby, who wore a “Justice Takes Sides” shirt. “They don’t want to deal with the systemic aspects of racism, that we got to change the curriculum, that we have to fix gerrymandered districts, that we have to redistribute financial resources.”
A historian, Tisby recently started teaching at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically Black school in Louisville founded by formerly enslaved Black Baptists. He’s the author of The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the American Church’s Complicity in Racism and How to Fight Racism: Courageous Christianity and the Journey Toward Racial Justice — and he writes regularly at his Substack newsletter Footnotes. He also knows firsthand how controversial it can be to talk about systemic racism.
Your tax-deductible gift helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of “Hurt and Healed by the Church” by Ryan George. To donate, click here.
Last year, trustees at a Christian college in Pennsylvania investigated ways they felt the school experienced “mission drift” from being “a Christ-centered, conservative institution.” The key example they criticized at Grove City College was Tisby speaking during a chapel service in 2020. Trustees called the invite a “mistake” and accused him of espousing “critical race theory” they argued was unbiblical.
This year, two English professors at Christian colleges — one at Palm Beach Atlantic University in Florida and another at Taylor University in Indiana — lost their jobs for their class discussions on race, with critics highlighting their use of writings by Tisby. This backlash — or what some call a “Whitelash” — is precisely the kind of response that Tisby the historian traced in his book The Color of Compromise.
But while Tisby is canceled from many conservative White Christian spaces, other Christians are willing to listen.
No Quick Fix
As Tisby talked about racism and racist terrorist violence in the U.S. today, he encouraged those present to not seek “the quick fix.”
“So often, when we think about fighting racism, we’re looking for the big thing, the single cause we can protest, the dramatic gesture,” he said. “But lasting change most often happens in small, consistent acts of courage. And I encourage you to keep going one step at a time. It took us centuries to get here. It’s going to be a long time for us to continue.”
“So we have to shift our mindset from seeing racial justice as some sort of a reaction or a one-time action; we actually have to think of it as a journey,” he added. “It’s a lifelong process. In different seasons of life, you are going to be learning and relearning different aspects of racial justice.”
Thus, Tisby talked about various ways of fighting racism that involved growing in awareness and building relationships. But, he insisted, such efforts must also include “committing to changing the laws and policies and practices of the systems and institutions that create and perpetuate racial inequality.”
“A lot of White Christians in the United States struggle to understand the systemic dimensions of racism. It’s always interpersonal,” he added.
Tisby used Arkansas as an example of the current push to squash conversations about systemic racism. He pointed to the recent last-minute decision by state officials to pull the plug on AP African American Studies being taught in public schools. Some schools are pushing forward with the course anyway with their own funding — including Central High School in Little Rock that was the site of the 1957 desegregation standoff included in the course! Such systemic efforts to block the teaching of history, Tisby argued, prove the need to address racism at levels beyond interpersonal relationships.
“We know the importance of building our awareness of racial justice because it’s being actively opposed. It’s getting harder, not easier, to learn the history and the methodologies and the theories that would help us understand race and racism and White Supremacy. That’s why we have to be serious about growing our awareness of these issues,” he said. “Once you see this stuff, you can’t unsee it.”
So Tisby encouraged the congregants to consider systemic racism in places they participate, including in Christian settings.
“What about the institutions you’re dedicating your time to? What a wonderful time right now as we’re looking at the 200th anniversary of this church to look back on the history of the church as an organization, as an institution — some of which I understand has already happened and is happening.”
Tisby alluded to the fact that First Baptist has been researching its ties to slavery and naming that as a sin during its telling of its history this year.
Churches, Tisby argued, could learn from efforts occurring in higher education. He pointed out efforts by schools like the University of Virginia, Princeton University, and University of Mississippi to study their institutional ties to slavery. He noted that the schools even work together through the Universities Studying Slavery Consortium to share ideas for research and memorialization.
“What I love about it is they were able to share best practices. They were able to share findings,” he said. “And then I started thinking about the church. What if we had something like the Churches Studying Slavery Consortium?”
“What I’m seeing now is everybody’s kind of doing their own thing, they’re trying to make progress on this in terms of institutional history, they’re looking back at their own churches,” he added. “What if we gathered together in a region or a denomination to say, ‘Hey, here’s what we’re discovering, here’s how we’re going about it, here’s how we’re acknowledging the truth of the past. What are you doing?’ And we’re sharing and we’re collaborating and we’re going to do it better together and moving further together.”
Repairing the Damage
Tisby said that when working for systemic change, “one of the things we got to think about is money. We don’t like to talk about that, especially in church!”
Mentioning that he teaches at a school designated as one of the Historically Black Colleges and Universities, Tisby shared data about the financial health of the nation’s HBCUs versus historically White schools. While Harvard University has an endowment of over $50 billion, the largest HBCU endowment is that of Howard University at just $875 million. In fact, Tisby added, there are more historically White schools with an endowment of more than $1 billion — 142 — than there are total HBCUs (107). HBCUs have been significantly underfunded as “even publicly-funded HBCUs were not funded according to their own state laws.”
Such underfunding also occurred for Christian colleges. Tisby said that when Simmons College of Kentucky “started as a dream of a group of Black Baptist pastors in Kentucky” after the Civil War, “those Black Baptist pastors didn’t have social networks of people who have millions of dollars.” But some White Christian schools did have networks of wealthy donors, “many of whom acquired their wealth through slavery, convict leasing, labor exploitation.”
That massive wealth disparity, Tisby said, requires “the only other ‘r’-word more controversial than racism.” Reparations.
“As we sit here in 2023, how is just knowing about this problem going to help? How is getting together and having a heart-to-heart over a cup of coffee and building a relationship going to help?” he explained. “What needs to happen is a systemic addressing of the issue. Laws need to be changed. Resources need to be shifted and shared.”
“Reparations are not a matter of charity; reparations are a matter of justice,” he added.
He suggested that if people have a problem with writing checks to individuals, then reparations could go to institutions like HBCUs that have already proven themselves effective. (In the case of Simmons, a group of Louisville pastors in 2019 urged Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, which was founded by enslavers, to pay reparations to the cross-town Baptist school started for Black pastors who were barred from the all-White seminary. But Southern President Al Mohler sharply rejected the call.)
Tisby also argued people didn’t have to wait for a government effort to start repairing the damage.
“Guess what, church, you don’t have to wait for anyone else,” he said. “You never need permission to do the right thing. We don’t need to wait on a federal or a state law that makes reparations legal or standard practice. The body of Christ can get together on its own as a congregation, a denomination, a consortium and say we’re going to do it.”
Whether it comes to reparations or other racial justice initiatives, Tisby insisted we know ways of making progress. The real need is for more people to decide they want to fight racism.
“When it comes to racial justice, we don’t have a how-to problem,” he added. “We have a want-to problem.”
This article originally appeared at Word & Way and has been reprinted with permisison.
Brian Kaylor, editor and president of Word & Way, is an award-winning writer and sought-after expert on issues of religion, politics, and communication.
English 
Spanish
87 Responses
A complexity is, that all institutions tend to serve an insider grouping, and thereby tend to mediate disservice for outsider groupings. Another complexity is, that insider groupings tend to see their institutions of allegiance and identification, as universally applicable, and ethically justified.
So racism is just one of the categories of disservice that institutions can mediate for outsider groupings; just one instance of social justice being absent.
Take for example the Christian institutions of, loving your neighbour as self, and the various human behaviours which Christians tend to view as sinful. These institutions most serve insiders to Christianity, and are experienced as mediators of disservice and prejudice and discrimination by outsider groupings subject to such institutionalised Christian viewing and judgement.
It proves complex to adjust institutions, so as to adjust away from mediated social injustice, while preserving the positive value mediated by those institutions.
So Tisby, of whom I approve, is both making progress in operationalising his theology (by way of speaking to institutions), and providing his critics with opportunities for push-back (if they choose to make use of what social science has to broadly say about institutions).
Ironically, in speaking about Christians coming together in terms of his theology, he is advocating for institutionalisation of what has been organic. Such that what he advocates for will itself eventually mediate social injustice.
Racism is very profitable to the race baiters, and might I add race baiting has become a calling card for anything that a person may feel a need to have empowerment over. Lady arrested by white cop in Walmart for stealing. Yup racist cop. I think based on many statistics he’s in the wrong church but guilting Christians is again, profitable.
Gary –
What is race baiting? I keep seeing this term thrown around when ANYONE wants to address racism. So what is it? And how do we address racism – or ANY problem – without talking about it?
And how is addressing a sin we still struggle with (as a church and a greater society) “guilting Christians”?
And it’s interesting you say racism is profitable for race baiters – but say NOTHING about how racism through institutional practices like Jim Crow and redlining pushed generations of profits towards segregationists and racists. That’s quite one-sided.
You use a lot of thought-stopping language and extreme labels that imply if we all just shut up, racism will go away on its own. How will that work? I’m truly interested.
Tisby proposes some complex solutions for very complex issues. They aren’t perfect, and I would invite a good debate with him. I DO agree that addressing racism is an individual and collective journey for all. I say that as a Black woman who continues to learn about my own.
Well Marin, you just shown us a race baiter. WE can’t fix the past. so why need to bring in historical issues as if I should feel guilty for things in the past. The use of the term white privilege and white national card are getting frayed. This merely is used to add to generate emotions that can’t be fixed only to hope for the emotional deflection from the real conversation. Thus, a race baiter
Isn’t he talking about the racism of the present? Racism is far from just an historical issue.
Gary, imagine a previous homeowner neglected and improperly maintained a home and gardens. A new homeowner comes along and has to put extra effort to restore it and make it beautiful. He does that because he cares about the home. Alternatively, he could say, well that was done by the previous owner I’m not responsible for what he failed to do or what he did wrong and continue to live among the weeds and in disrepair.
I’ve shown you a race baiter? I take it you are attempting to insult me for trying to understand? God bless you, Gary. Two things:
1. Jamar is talking about the racism the church is facing TODAY. Read his writings and go online to hear his full speeches. We have work to do as the body of Christ spiritually and institutionally. We do FAR too much reflecting of our society’s ills regarding racial attitudes rather than impacting or improving them.
2. Sins of the past impact the present. Not sure if you are a Christian, but scripture warns us our sins impact “our children’s children.” So discussing it is an important part of understanding the far reaching impact of sin. It’s not to make anyone feel guilty, but it IS to make sure we take sin seriously. We shouldn’t take a selfish attitude of thinking we are only impacting ourselves or our generation with our attitudes, beliefs and behaviors.
In greater context, we study history to not only understand the present (how we got here) but so we don’t repeat it. Do you think history should be taken out of classrooms “because we can’t change it”? That’s quite short-sighted. If anything, we are walking around a society with prevalent ignorance OF our history, and it shows in our lack of knowledge of basic civics, economics, language, culture and anthropology. How’s that working for us? Listen to those spouting anti-Semitic beliefs out of not knowing religious, cultural or political history of the Middle East. Again, how’s not talking about that helping?
Colin, if I can summarize what Tisby and yourself are promoting as a solution is essentially social engineering. Furthermore, the basis of these arguments is Marxist. Tisby says the reason white people fight “wokeism”, etc is due to its institutional perspective. That is only true in light of the above – social engineering and Marxist theory. It’s not due to a lack of not understanding how or wanting institutions to change in our country. Many examples given for how racial disparity proves the cause is institutional racism fall because there are other reasonable reasons why such a disparity exists. The case of Harvard actually proves Justice has organically occurred and there are other reasons for such disparity besides race when he admits it is “historically” white. It is no more and yet still receives such (in my opinion, ridiculous) levels of funding. We (not just whites) still believe that a free society is more just than a tyrannical one of social engineers who think they know what is best.
Joe. Tisby and I are very different human beings. He and I sense and judge and act out of very different biographical circumstances. He is American, Black, Activist, and probably more of a Christian than I am capable of being. He encounters, in his living and being, different exigencies and challenges than do I.
All that we share is a sense of what institutions are and work. I use the perspectives involved in this, to advocate for individuals. I offer no thoughts on what we ought to be doing about institutions. No thinking about social engineering inform my being or activity. Rather I simply speak to how I experience institutions generally, using terms and perspectives provided by formal education in social science
Again, resident in Scotland as I am, I have very limited view or understanding of the tensions between those such as Tisby and other Americans and Christians. Such that it is difficult for me to grapple with the disagreements with Tisby (and perhaps CRT) that you testify to.
Personally I recognise in my own person, the effects of institutionalisation which Tisby speaks to generically. I find myself able to affirm his perspective, without surrendering to it. I suspect I might place more weight on the adequacy of “attitude” and “interpersonal relationships” than does Tisby. When I get these two aspects fairly right, its sundown for me, the job of being human done. It’s here that one could consider Tisby as being ideologically mediated and sustained and activated (albeit not as a Marxist). If he is there to be considered a “social engineer”, it’s his Christianity which templates his informing ideology (CRT in part).
“We (not just whites) still believe that a free society is more just than a tyrannical one of social engineers who think they know what is best.“
I like this thought. It also means looking at how slavery, segregation, redlining and the like were also forms of social engineering. This leads to the question: have we ever really been a free society? Or have we thought we were when we were merely the ones on the “beneficial” side of the engineering?
Marin, obviously there is no perfectly free society but we have a construct that attempts to give freedom to as many people as possible with mechanism to correct wrongs (such as redlining which didn’t last long).
Joe –
Not sure where you live but everything I listed – including redlining (particularly here in Chicago) – went on for generations.
But I do think everyone wants freedom. I think people have differing ideas of how to create a more perfect free society. If we start realizing our common ground, we’d stop seeing everyone who disagree with us as enemies to be labeled.
Joe,
Perhaps redlining “didn’t last long,” but its effects certainly endure. Black Americans were largely prohibited from participating in our post-WW2 economic boom and amassing the generational wealth that it created for many members of the white middle class. Black veterans were routinely denied GI Bill rights. These are but two of many examples of the institutional racism that Tisby wants us to recognize.
Agreed, I am not individually responsible for these wrongs. Guilt trips are ineffective. The past cannot be rectified. Motivated by God’s love, however, the body of Christ can create a better future for all by sharing our time, talent, and treasure toward reducing injustice.
Most of the assets that my siblings and I will inherit from our parents resulted from their ownership of highly appreciated real property. Are they racists? No, but they benefited indirectly from systems that made home purchases relatively easy for white professionals during the second half of the twentieth century. My father responded to his good fortune by eliminating anti-Semitic restrictions from neighborhood documents that were drafted during the 1950s. One person can indeed make a difference, with or without social engineering.
Cee,
If you truly value what Tisby is wanting, give your assets from your parents inheritance to reparations. It’s not charity. You’re fulfilling what is just. As Tisby stated, “You never need permission to do the right thing.” And my challenge to all who agree. Time to take your 401k, college funds, rainy day money or whatever. Sell your house, your extra land. You do not need it!!! Better yet give it as a gift to those individuals who fall into the camp of those who deserve reparations. Give it up. Be the change you want. You are sinful by your status! White- Privileged! IStep up! When you give-You aren’t being charitable. You are fulfilling the requirements of JUSTICE! Even though Tisby states the problem is beyond interpersonal. By then asked for you to step up! I’m probably gonna be called racist even though, I’m a minority. So should you owe me for what your ancestors did to mine? It was collective. But start the collective response by leading the cause.
Tisby is saying all the quiet parts out loud and many who claim a higher morality by simply believing they are forgiven of all wrongs are putting their fingers solidly in their ears. Kudos to those who listen. Robert Jones of PRRI has written two books on the subject of white Christianity’s racist roots and done studies of racism in American churches. If you will, you can look up the Public Religion Research Institute’s site and find a recent study of the correlation between racism and frequent church attendance. It is stunning, and should shout to all still in religion that something needs to change.
“You can’t unsee systemic racism.” I am finding this more and more and more. As someone who really resisted the concept when I first heard of it, I find it has taken me years to get to the point of even making room for people like Jemar Tisby to be accepted as a brother in Christ. (I’m sorry it took so long, but here I am!)
But he is so right — once you see what he is talking about, you just can’t unsee it. It’s pulled me way out of my comfort zone (which I do not regret), and made me have to change my mind on many things I once accepted without much question.
The Bible is clear: Sin is an individual matter. Stated far better than I could explain is the following from the publisher of DSNTR https://disntr.com/2023/10/14/in-overtly-racist-tweet-wheaton-college-professor-lambasts-white-men-for-discussing-just-war-theory/
“Wokeism is deeply rooted in Critical Theory, which has its origins in Marxist ideology. Critical Theory aims to deconstruct societal structures, claiming they are rooted in power imbalances. It often categorizes people into groups based on characteristics like race, gender, and social class, assigning them roles of oppressors or the oppressed. This collectivist perspective stands in stark contrast to the individual moral agency emphasized in the Bible.
The social justice movement, influenced by woke ideology, focuses on redistributing power and resources from so-called “privileged” groups to “marginalized” groups. This approach often promotes policies like affirmative action, wealth redistribution, and the like. However, Biblical justice is deeply individualistic and moralistic, concerned with the state of one’s soul rather than societal power structures. The Bible teaches that true justice can only be achieved through a transformation of the heart and mind, guided by the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles as revealed to us in Scripture.”
Sin is an individual manner, but when enough individuals partake in it, it becomes a collective cultural and social issue. (Look at what was happening in the city of Corinth as described by Paul.)
This is why we are to address our individual sins, but also hold one another accountable.
Refusing to do that is how sins of discriminatory attitudes, actions and behaviors are allowed to exist – and even be written into laws – for so long.
Not everyone owned slaves, but a whole lot of people sat by silently while their fellow citizens did.
Not everyone supported segregation, but a whole lot of people were quiet when they knew Black people weren’t allowed to live in their neighborhood, go to their schools, or join their clubs.
If people held one another accountable, a civil rights movement would have been unnecessary, Plessy v Ferguson would have NEVER been acceptable of our Supreme Court, and disenfranchisement based on race (or gender) would have never been ok to voters. This is why “well my family didn’t do it” falls on deaf ears. The REAL question should be: What was your family doing about it?
Even today, not everyone is racist, but a lot of people are quiet when they hear racist tropes and jokes.
That’s how sin festers and permeates cultures and institutions. the power of the sin of omission.
https://disntr.com/2023/10/14/in-overtly-racist-tweet-wheaton-college-professor-lambasts-white-men-for-discussing-just-war-theory/
“The most striking issue with this kind of ideology is its blatant disregard for the sovereignty of God. It seeks to dethrone God and replace His divine plan with human ideologies that focus on societal reconstruction. The Bible, however, teaches that God is the final authority on all matters—including justice, war, and social issues. His Word provides the ultimate guidelines for living a righteous life, and any doctrine that deviates from this is fundamentally flawed.
Wokeism, social justice, and Marxist ideology are not just incompatible with Biblical Christianity; they are antithetical to it. These ideologies aim to replace the divine and individualistic nature of Biblical teachings with a human-centric, collectivist agenda. In doing so, they undermine the very essence of Christianity, which is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, guided by the inerrant Word of God. As Christians, it is crucial to recognize these ideological invasions for what they are and stand firmly on the teachings of the Bible, which remains the final authority on all matters.”
Poor Dr. Tisby seems hopelessly confused and in need of prayer.
Dr Norbeck, thank you thank you thank you. all I read when it comes to racism is “and back then they did this to black people”. yeah, I get it. But now let’s look at real modern racism. Stories galore of inner-city school children less then 50% proficient in math and English. GOOGLE IT. And in Baltimore 13 schools had ZERO kids’ reading and math proficiently YET Had a 95% graduation rate????? really. Racism is caused by mostly do Gooders of all colors racing kids thru, so the graduation rates look good and remember the funding comes from kids in seats. whether they learn or not. oh, and as for the budgets? yes, these schools receive more than the average school, so it isn’t funding. Thats called racism in the 21st century. And again, everything I just said is verifiable via google. It’s all about the bucks. A principal in Miami got an award for reducing crime in his school. YEAH. but here’s the catch. He merely stopped reporting the crime. Thats racism. Now let’s discuss this and see what happens.
Gary,
You and I are on the same page when it comes to the failure of our public schools. It is a national tragedy that children graduate from high school unable to read. It is a national tragedy that children were kept out of school due to idiotic COVID policies when they needed school the most. It is a national tragedy that so many children in our nation grow up in poverty with one parent striving hard to make ends meet. It is a national tragedy that many of our brightest and best feel defeated before they even start living as adults.
What can we do to change this? What can I do to change this? May God show us how and equip us with the skills to make a difference. May God empower me to change their lives for the better.
Nowadays we even have children in poverty with TWO parents holding down multiple jobs trying to make ends meet. Yes, we like to talk about the “individual”, but this is beyond a “one person, one child at a time” issue. It’s multi-layered: we can talk about inconsistent and inequitable funding, inadequate teacher recruiting and retention, lack of empowerment of administrators and principals, misusing standardized tests under false belief it will solve everything, inability of parents to be as involved when they have to hold down multiple jobs, unaffordable housing that makes commutes of parents and students more and more challenging….This is generational. It is institutional. It is not a “one size fits all, one thing will fix everything” issue.
And yes, race has been a part of this for generations too. It does make me sad to see so many inner city kids feel defeated, blamed, and worthless amidst all of this. Meanwhile, those same kids watch us dote on “suburban kids”, as if those kids are somehow better and had something to do with being born into better circumstances.
I am pleased with – and would like to see more – attitudes of “what can I do to change this?” rather than fingerpointing, blaming, and labeling. All that does is get the kids who need our help lost in a mix of adult right-fighting and moral grandstanding.
So thank you for raising this. I know I am just one person, but I do pray to have an impact far beyond my 2 hands.
Wow Marin yes, you are a race baiter. making excuses for failures of people. It’s never been institutional racism it’s always been parenting. Look at the single parent rate, crime rate, undereducation rate and then you blame it on racism. Wow. Good luck with that and it’s your attitude that keeps people down. always an excuse. What about Hispanic and Asian single parents and their kid’s success rates? Or is that being racist on my part?
Where did I make excuses? I simply said that the issues facing our children are complex, and fixing it will take a coordinated effort that empowers parents, funds schools, equips teachers and administrators, and teaches critical thinking and writing versus “to the test”. ALL of it together. And YES, I do applaud the adults who see the mess that is our public school system, and raise their hands to ask “what can I do to change this?” Not sure how that’s race baiting, but that’s your opinion.
I don’t know what single Hispanic or Asian parents have to do with my comment. I speak as a Black woman who is the daughter of a married doctor and lawyer, and who themselves were the children of a college professor, Air Force colonel, teacher, and Army vet turned farmer (all married). My parents and grandparents went to segregated schools (institutional racism), and my grandfathers served a nation that wouldn’t let them vote (institutional racism again!) Yet we were taught the keys to freedom were salvation through Christ AND a good education. My brothers and I all graduated at the top of our class and have AT LEAST one graduate degree. I attribute our success to our hard work PLUS all I listed above. I saw the difference between me and my peers who had less, so I’m not going to say my success was “all me” or “all parenting” as if the other factors didn’t matter at all. That’s arrogant and ignorant.
And if you have a problem with me as a Black woman or with Black kids, please take that to the Lord in prayer.
What is your doctorate in?
Who cares! I have more degrees than Fahrenheit. However I can think for myself. Read a lot of books vs clickbait on the internet. Devour as much information as possible. I believe reading books is like a Spiritual Anytime Fitness. Constantly engaged with material. Allowing scripture to be the Len which I view material. Degrees? Sure it show diligence. However after college seminary and post graduate education. I began to dig into the why. I believe that education gives some helpful “how” tips. The last 20 years I see out why. Using syllogistic methods to understand premises and carefully analysis to be sure I do not have a false dilemma. Focus on Christ, the Bible and be a veracious reader. It is why I believe there are many false dilemmas and I wonder if you all see the Bible as I do.
Hey James,
I have to say that some of the dumbest people on the planet have PhDs. That would include me! On the other hand, some of the greatest people I know (and wisest) never even finished high school. My degree got stuck on my Julie Roys profile and I have been too proud and lazy to remove it.
It’s going now.
Could you clarify please. On using the link you provided, and reading the opinion piece it linked to, I was unable to ascertain who had written it.
The article appeared to be responding to an online post by Joey Cochrane. Your quoting of part of it then leaves open the suggestion that what you quote was written by Tisby. Could you clarify please. Is what you quote an opinion piece on the thinking of Cochrane, or is it something written by Tisby.
Hey Colin,
It is a link to an opinion piece not written by Tisby. I believe the author’s name was missing, but it was written in response to a tweet by Joey Cochran, a visiting professor from Wheaton College.
Or just have a talk with Thomas Sowell.
Amen Dr. Norbeck,
I just read your post after submitting mine, I agree 100%. I basically said the same thing. It is our Savior Jesus, the Word of God, the Spirit of God and His Fruit that transforms. If there is an issue in our lives, God is the answer, not a carnal intellect.
God Bless You Dr. Norbeck
I’d like Tisby and his pals to explain why the descendants of my Italian grandfather Oreste should pay reparations. He and his fellow countrymen immigrated here legally at the beginning of the 20th century and never owned slaves. Part of our family history includes stories of the KKK sending men out to collect “fire insurance” premiums from the Italian immigrants every month. And then after that, Sicilian mobsters would send their goons out to collect more protection money. I don’t see any white privilege there. Italians were “redlined” too. https://www.historycolorado.org/story/colorado-voices/2019/01/29/seeing-red-unethical-practice-redlining-pueblo
Because sin is more than an individual matter and we should love our neighbors as ourselves.
Privilege doesn’t mean one never struggled. It does mean there are benefits reaped and experienced that one had nothing to do with. For me: I have the privilege of being born and raised in a two-parent household of Christian professionals here in the US. I’ve had struggles, but can say I’ve seen my passport open doors while living overseas (when I had nothing to do with being American), and continue to realize all I grew up with in terms of access (socially, economically and spiritually) due to my parents. It would be a LIE to say I got where I am SOLELY due to hard work. I was born into pretty good circumstances.
Being white comes with certain privileges and assumptions (fewer people question your intellect, if you belong in higher socioeconomic positions, etc) that are hard to explain unless you experience it. Doesn’t mean white people don’t struggle at all. That’s just incorrect and ignorant. And privilege is fluid based on the dominant culture (I lost “Christian” privilege when living in Dubai).
Reparations aren’t perfect, but even the UK paid them to Black residents well into the 90s. I have mixed feelings on them – I understand the concept and intent but not the execution. And Italian history in the US is complex. It’s too much to get into here, but let’s remember that when race was reconstructed to include Italians and Irish as white, they joined in discriminatory behavior against Black people. (Read about the histories of Chicago and NYC neighborhoods).
Jane:
Sorry, but at least according to the Bible, sin is most definitely an individual matter. When the Jewish nation spoke about corporate lament back in OT days, it was because they had entered into a Covenant with God and were therefore, AS A NATION, responsible for sin in their midst.
Today, individual Christians repent for their own sins, not for the sins of others. Otherwise, we would likely never grow in our faith. Further, Jesus went looking for INDIVIDUALS. The Bible makes this clear: Even the story of the 99 sheep being left so Jesus could search for the ONE is a great example.
It is through ONE that forgiveness of sins comes. ONE. And whether or not we choose to follow Christ is an INDIVIDUAL decision.
Dr. Tisby is relying on corporate white guilt over ancestral sin to raise money. I find that reprehensible.
Since you refer to yourself as a “Dr.” it would be nice to know your area of expertise. Please respond.
Jane and Marin: imputing the sins of others to innocent people based on real or perceived group identity is not justice. Imputing innocence and victim status to others based on real or perceived group identity is not justice. The Marxist-Leninist oppressor/oppressed distinction is inherently racist and evil. Attempting to forcibly redistribute wealth and influence via reparations creates a new set of “winners and losers” based on real or perceived group identity. I don’t see Jesus approving of group identity politics, no matter who is doing it. That’s what John 4 is all about. Isn’t it time to stop that wheel from turning?
Daniel –
There is a difference between “imputing the sins of others to innocent people” (which I am not advocating for) and acknowleding the generational impacts of sin (which is Biblical). I wish we could say that sin exists in a vacuum, and the sins of others NEVER impact us; but that’s simply untrue. We are treading on dangerous territory when I can’t say, “My parents grew up in the Jim Crow era and attended segregated schools, so they didn’t have meaningful relationships with white people until they were adults; here is how that impacted my ability to form childhood friendships with white kids” without the response of “race baiter!” or “I didn’t do it, stop making it my fault!” Yes, this has happened. We are stunting the ability to discuss experiences we are unfamiliar or disagree with (not sure how you can disagree with what someone else went through, but that’s another topic), which is key to building the type of relationships that bridge divides. (Don’t we need those?)
Similar concept: my boyfriend comes from generations of divorce; those divorces are NOT his fault. BUT it is truthful and responsible for him to acknowledge the impacts of those divorces on him (his challenges with trust, his concept of what a healthy relationship looks like, his fear of conflict) and address them. Those divorces did not exist in a vacuum, and he is NOT breaking the cycle with an attitude of “I didn’t do it, so why talk about it.”
I’ve repeatedly asked how not talking about the impacts of racism has helped us (or will help us). I have yet to see a response; I’m really open to suggestions here.
Marin:
Your words:
“I’ve repeatedly asked how not talking about the impacts of racism has helped us (or will help us). I have yet to see a response; I’m really open to suggestions here.”
I have never met a joyful person who dwells on the past.
Paul himself gives us a great example of this with the following words:
Philippians 3:13-14 (NIV)
“But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.”
But when speaking about the impacts of racism, these conversations are speaking of the present, not the past.
Scripture also calls us to have stones of remembrance. It pains me that remembering all that God brought my family through bothers other Christians. It’s frustrating that the celebration of the faithful provision of a God who brought my family through slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings and the like to STILL be here 8 generations later is so problematic. Whew, we’ve been thru it, and God has been there every step of the way.
But you know what? Maybe we should stop saying that. Apparently racism stopped in 1964, and there is ZERO impact of it today. Nothing to address or talk about anymore, because it’s all figured out now.
Marin,
Do you believe the gospel is the answer to the problem of racism? Have you read Galatians? The gospel confronts racism and flips it upside down. Paul was dealing with Jewish people who believed other ethnicities needed more restrictions. He taught the meaning of being a new creation in Christ. Philippians states our citizenship is in heaven. Our life on earth is like a spiritual “green card”. We share the same skin color as an identity. My hope is that we share the same spiritual identity. The government or collectivism will not fix racism. That’s putting your hope in a pseudo god Racism, murder, idolatry, infidelity will not be fixed. Set your eyes on Christ. If bitterness from past sin remain you will be stuck in the past. If you look to be slighted. You will find it. Sin can not be fixed by money, words or reparations. My father was murdered. Absent from the body, present with the Lord. The impacts of racism is there. But the impact of many patterns of sin impacts us all.
This article will not restore the church! “Tisby is canceled from many conservative White Christian spaces.” That statement misdirects the point (content vs appearance). The article unfolds the misdirect. “committing to changing the laws and policies and practices of the systems and institutions that create and perpetuate racial inequality.” That is not a a practice of the church. These laws he wants are not ecclesiastical. He states, “It’s always interpersonal.” However, his statements are anything but interpersonal. He said,”wealthy donors,” many of whom acquired their wealth through slavery, convict leasing, labor exploitation.”Who? Names of people alive who practice that. Even if a son, grandson or great grandson of someone who practiced that is not responsible. Did the Bible change? Ezekiel 18:19-23. Is clear that Tisby is as a historian is lacking a biblical history. Finally his solution is reparations. So tax payers (NOT GOVERNMENT) have to pay for a problem that does not exist and one they did not commit. That’s not interpersonal. That’s institutional. Tisby’s ideas are debased. They are not logical, nor theological.
“The article unfolds the misdirect [arguably on the part of Tisby]. “committing to changing the laws and policies and practices of the systems and institutions that create and perpetuate racial inequality.” That is not a a practice of the church. These laws he wants are not ecclesiastical.” [John Piper].
John then further speaks to Biblical and social aspects of his thinking. He is entitled to that thinking, and if we choose to engage with John, then we should do this through respect for that thinking.
However, their is other respectable thinking, both within Christianity and within the thinking of non-Christians who happily coexist with Christianity.
My sense of the test for Christianity, is: just how does it leaven or influence or shape our collective human world; just what does it add to human occurrence. Brought up within the Church of Scotland within Scotland, I think what I suggest here is congruent with and expressive of that Church’s theology and practice.
My sense of Tisby and his thinking, is: that he speaks from a Christian being; to those and that with control over our institutional framework. He’s a thinker communicating thinking, and is not thereby stepping into the arena of constitutional and legal process.
A parallel here, might be Christian educational institutions which set out to provide their Christian frame of reference to those who administer our collective arrangements. Would John argue that they too are leavening the collective world perversely by way of their “misdirect”. If so, that would be fine, if the criteria as to misdirect were being applied consistently and fairly.
Personal bottom line. Christianity which separates itself too absolutely from the ‘worldly’, is not for me. Can the seed be separated from the soil, and still yield useful fruits.
Colin- “speaks to Biblical and social aspects of his thinking. He is entitled to that thinking…we should do this through respect for that thinking.” Where is entitlement in the Bible? Waiting? Not there! What is the biblical function of the church?
– “influence or shape our collective human world”- Influence should have regeneration/sanctification as the goal. The world hates/rejects followers of Christ. Biblical Influence is the opposite of what Tisby proposes. Change? Find biblical interpersonal relationships. Not a collective mission. If Tisby is biblical, then, the Holy Spirit will lead those (you) who supposedly owe reparations give their money/land/ house/ car/college$/ 401k to Tisby.
-“Christianity which separates itself too absolutely from the ‘worldly’, is not for me. Can the seed be separated from the soil, and still yield useful fruits.”Syllogistically, you equate seed + soil with Christianity + world. What does that =? Soil =world? Or =Gospel? Which one will engender and cultivate a follower of Christ? My “bottom line.”
Faith without works is dead. Jesus said sell everything to follow Me. Those who believe in Tisby’s message. Go and do likewise. Sell everything for reparations on the basis of one’s white privilege.
“Colin, my dad is a minority. If your dad beat my dad up for not sitting in the back of the bus. Is that your responsibility to make it right with me? Is it my responsibility to hold you accountable for his actions?” [James].
James, my grounded sense of being human, has it that the palpable connections between the elements of what you refer to in the quote above, see me reflexively answering “yes” to your question about my “responsibility”. Regards your question as to your responsibility, my sense is that it is not my place to say: if you were minded to hold me accountable, I can see validity in that, and if you were not so minded I can see equal validity there.
Incidentally, it may be that, if I had had personal experience of having a dad, I would think differently. My father died just before my second birthday, and I underwent development in the absence of a father figure; this something which colours my engagement with the language and metaphors of the Bible. The freedom I enjoyed in this being somewhat pagan, as I learned much from unfiltered exposure to nature and human society.
“Colin- “speaks to Biblical and social aspects of his thinking. He is entitled to that thinking…we should do this through respect for that thinking.” Where is entitlement in the Bible? Waiting? Not there! What is the biblical function of the church?” [James].
Biblical reference to “entitlement” could be approached in terms of all that the Bible has God promising to humankind. God’s promises giving “title” (in the covenant and legal sense) to various human expectations. Title to occupation of land. Dominion over the named Earth. The promise of salvation and eternal live flowing from righteousness. More complexly, title to exercise human agency freely.
Things arguably change with the NT covenant. All changes arguably grounded in the idea of and imperative to “love neighbour as self”. In some crucial sense all now can expect to be so loved by any Christian. It becomes an entitlement all can partake of.
The Church becomes the nursery for cultivation of such a basis to being human. A nursery which anticipates a maturing into ultimate salvation and eternal life.
Colin, No offense but that’s not entitlement. That’s mercy and grace. The Bible states He chose us before Genesis 1:1. If that is entitlement then the cross has lost meaning. The Bible says all the promises of God find their “YES IN HIM (CHRIST)” What are you save from? Sin? Hell? Satan? Being a Bears fan? Lol. I am a Packers fan. We are saved from the wrath of God. That’s mercy. We are save by the work of Christ. That is grace. That’s not entitlement.
Just admit it!!! It’s a subjective emotionally based cash grab. Because you cannot find Tisby’s ideology in the Bible.
“”Syllogistically, you equate seed + soil with Christianity + world. What does that =? Soil =world? Or =Gospel? Which one will engender and cultivate a follower of Christ? My “bottom line.””
Soil = our Earth world. Yes. Seed = the two-part wisdom (OT & NT) of the Biblical thesis.
What is it to “follow Jesus”. None of us have what it would take to be “Christ” (the human individual held to have so fulfilled the OT Biblical thesis, that their recorded truth maps the way to salvation and eternal life for all humankind). It is enough, in my view, to take the mapped path with what we are and have, and be content with how ever far we get on that way. Follow Jesus (a human exemplar) rather than follow Christ (a theological construct).
Within this comment stream, we are diverging as to how we are relating the individual and the collective, the individual and society, the individual and community, the individual and religious belief and faith, and much more that being a human individual intersects with.
Tisby emphasises what in this listing is other than individual, as something palpable and undeniable that the individual intersects with.
Those criticising Tisby appear to be pulling away from or denying the aspects to being human which Tisby emphasises. This seeming to be being phrased in terms of only the individual being involved in things Biblical and Christian and of God.
The thing is, both strategies are strategies of construction. Each yields a way of being human which can be viewed and considered and adjudged and discussed. Both are part of the field of human occurrence, both can be associated with Christianity.
Both constructed humanities are currently in play. Nothing of value is to be gained by other than engaging with both. Neither is positioned to annihilate the other.
Colin, I’m responding not to the humanity but the context of the article and the church. Colin, my dad is a minority. If your dad beat my dad up for not sitting in the back of the bus. Is that your responsibility to make it right with me? Is it my responsibility to hold you accountable for his actions? Should I use the government as a vehicle (remember the government produces nothing) to repay me for something you had nothing to do with? That is insane! Ezekiel 18:19-23, is biblically viable and a variable that Tisby can not bypass. This is not about being human or humane. This is divisive and as a minority it is offensive. Because it assumes that racial identity is probable to my success or lack of success. It destroys human responsibility and biblical rationale. Try showing up with reparations in heaven for not following Christ. Not a good plan. The solutions he presents from an interpersonal problem is incongruent. It’s also an inconsistent idea to the meta- narratives of the Christian story. In a sense he’s repurposed it to focus on his view of history. Not very astute for a historian.
James –
You seem to be speaking in absolutes. Everything is not an “either/or”, but often various shades of a “yes/and”. Does one’s race speak to one’s ability or potential? No. Does it impact one’s experience? Yes. Does it affect how you are viewed in the world? Yes. Are all of these things – ability, potential, experience, and perception – COMPLETELY unrelated with ZERO overlap? No. It’s those areas of overlap that we need to address.
You said “If your dad beat up my dad for not sitting in the back of the bus, is that your responsibility to make it right with me? No.” But a situation like that doesn’t happen in a vacuum: Would you understand if an experience like that made my dad hesitant about me being friends with you – or if my dad went around the rest of his life resentful, fearful, or hateful of people like you? Do you think that sort of attitude exists in a vacuum? THAT is an example of the impact we need to talk about.
This is where we are getting lost: there is so much talking in absolutes, as if everything is black and white, leaving out any room for nuance, shades of gray and overlap.
We do need to find a way to have a productive conversation. Because just from reading the comments on this site alone, the same people who justify having bad impressions of Black people due to what they see in media – which is RACIAL STEREOTYPING – will speak as if racism is a thing of the past or made up by “race baiters”. That’s denial. That’s gaslighting. That’s divisive.
Self aware? You accuse me of speaking in absolutes. Then do the very same. You said,” ‘No.’ But a situation like that doesn’t happen in a vacuum”- then you give an example of the very thing of your dad being hesitant. You cancel out your own point. I see the gospel (in totality) as the answer. Reparations is not biblical. Can you me an example or even discuss a passage where it’s a doctrinal value? In Christ we become a new creation. Jesus ends ethnocentrism. He prayed that we all could become one. Many functions and representatives of the Body. We shouldn’t prefer one over another. That is partiality. You are not responsible for another generations sin. Reparations will not bring back what was lost. The cross will. Reparations represents victimhood. The gospel represents victory Do you believe reparations bring people closer and to Christ?
“We do need to find a way to have a productive conversation” Want to know how? Make it happen. Ask God for opportunities. It’s amazing. He will make those paths available. I’ve had so many opportunities. Just a month ago a different ethnic person came across my Pat. He got saved and now is putting his life together. God can do that. Be a “pipe” and let God “pump” His Truth through you!
I actually didn’t contradict myself. I was sharing how that one incident had an impact on future behavior towards others. THAT means that incident didn’t exist in a vacuum. Others were impacted (like me). Sin is dangerous because its impacts are rarely confined to just the sinner.
I am not responsible for another person’s sin, but I can be impacted by it. Children are impacted by their parents divorce, are they not? But they aren’t responsible for it.
Scripture acknowledges this – God both warns and tells Israel how its sin will impact their children’s children.
Yes, the gospel can heal. But what’s that look like in action? It’s more than quoting scriptures and Christianese.
And the way to have a productive conversation is to obey scripture in how you treat others. Be slow to speak and quick to listen. Exhibit compassion and respect even amidst disagreement.
We read examples in scripture of God providing reparations – and punishments – to entire generations and nations for the sins of one. And the ultimate reparation came through the sacrifice of one.
So the concept isn’t new. I don’t know what fair or just reparations would look like today; I would have to discuss and learn more.
That’s not reparations. God is eternal. He always was. He can not sin. He is unable due to His Holy nature. He is not able to do reparations. Is there a “Woke Study Bible” I am unaware of? God does not owe His creation anything. He is God! Please if you really believe this. You are running into not just a different mode of eschatology or polity. You are ascribing sin to a Holy God.
What’s a “woke Bible study”? Sorry I don’t understand what that is or the comment. Are we just slapping “woke” on everything again?
Of course God is holy and does not sin. His ways are also higher than our ways, and He alone sets the standard for what is fair and just. And I believe we in our humanity don’t fully comprehend what is fair and just to Him, as we can go through verses and see God judge, condemn, and even bless entire nations and bloodlines for the sins (or obedience) of one. In our human mind, we can go back and forth on what WE think is fair and just, but as believers, we must yield and have faith in Him and His standards.
Again, I don’t know enough about reparations to have an informed opinion. I’ve seen the term used in different ways, and the description of different methods – some of which read like the post war entitlement agenda – which had its benefits and consequences. Need to learn more before speaking on it.
Marin:
Your words:
“This is where we are getting lost: there is so much talking in absolutes, as if everything is black and white, leaving out any room for nuance, shades of gray and overlap.”
In God’s realm, there is right and wrong. There is sin and sinless. There is no room for “nuance” in God’s kingdom: You are either for Him or against Him. Even a tiny bit of yeast affects the entire dough, as the Bible says.
It’s why Jesus came. God’s standard is perfection.
Regarding racism… it is a permanent fixture in this fallen world. We have talked about it for generations, but only God can change it by changing the heart of Man. I have said this often- are you understanding my point? No number of lectures, symposiums, anti-racist rhetoric, anti-racist books, or “productive conversations” will ever change it without the work of Jesus Christ. You can talk for the next century, but you will get nowhere unless God changes hearts.
Cynthia –
When I was talking about absolutes, I was not referring to right and wrong. I was referring to identifying cause and effect, and speaking as if there is only one of each. There can be multiple causes that create one outcome. And one cause can create multiple outcomes.
We get caught up in racism looks one way and has one outcome. That’s an incorrect absolute. Same for sexism, classism, and a whole lot of other isms. Reading many of these threads, you’ll see themes of “What happened didn’t look this one way or have this one outcome, so that’s not racism! Stop wokeism!” That’s an oversimplification. It can be a “yes/and” there were other causes and effects, too.
I’ve RARELY seen or experienced an incident where one cause was solely at play.
“Should I use the government as a vehicle (remember the government produces nothing) to repay me for something you had nothing to do with?” [James].
Government is something done through something very much greater than itself. Namely the field of human occurrence of which we are all part. That field open to being anatomically dissected in many ways. Part of that connecting integument is religious (Biblical, Christian). Part is natural. Part is secular and worldly.
If you felt generationally disadvantaged by what my dad had been systemically doing to your dad (so something beyond and contextualising the beating up). Then you might attempt to communicate this sense to me, by way of speaking about how what connects us as human beings, was perversely exploited by my dad.
I should there celebrate and embrace your expression of you (love your neighbour as your self). But I might push back if I felt you were over-egging matters in some regard. So communication occurring, rather than a weapon being levelled.
“19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.” [Referred to by James].
My sense is that the Biblical wisdom here is beyond my capacity to explain it. But interrogating this translation more superficially.
Guilt here appears to attach to the connection between sin and salvation, sin and eternal life. So the child will not be denied opportunity of salvation and eternal life, by the sinning of the parent. Rather securing salvation and eternal life is down to the child cleaving to righteousness.
The idea that Tisby’s thesis intentionally leverages guilt, may not be accurate.
Another approach through metaphor, might have Tisby arguing that the traces of an earlier societal disease, still linger in the institutional integument of our present collective experience and arrangement. A disease trace that can be cleansed by moving on from the current understanding informing institutions we collectively rely on.
“It’s also an inconsistent idea to the meta- narratives of the Christian story. In a sense he’s repurposed it to focus on his view of history. Not very astute for a historian.” [James].
There’s a lot to unpack in what you here say.
My personal sense being that the meta-narratives of the Christian story are beyond our capacity to capture and express them. Rather, while we recognise they are there, we fail to come up with a take on them which we can all agree on. Rather, through mutual testifying we keep alive the impulse to continue to seek them out.
History I see as not dissimilar. We recognise there is a degree of objectivity to history, which goes beyond our subjective takes on that history; but in practice we never agree on any one historical narrative.
So, in my view, we are always dealing with our personal (individual and collective) subjectively coloured narratives on history and Bible and Christianity. Really we are always chasing the truth and integrity of our soul, with narrative resources that never quite get us there.
Tisby then has a being, which is Christian, which is subjective, which is biased by his own experiential and integrity dynamics. In this he is like so many others of us. Really like all of us. We then divide on whether we allow ourselves to be moved by what he has to say; where, there, its all absolutely intersubjective. Really with no metaphysical basis for adjudication, for or against.
The goal is to get outside of subjective experience with objectivity in the Bible. So many times my subjective reasoning has been convicted by the Bible. Cut to the chase. If the Bible taught whether in the didactic or narrative passage that reparations was a biblical or gospel value. I would agree. It just is not there.
“The goal is to get outside of subjective experience with objectivity in the Bible.” [James].
That understanding would yield fruits by which the understanding (theology) might be judged.
My own understanding then is that the Bible does not offer God or Jesus objectively, but rather divinely. The belief and faith grounding and fuelling the approach to the divine, seems to me essentially subjective and intersubjective. I take the injunction against graven images to extend to being an injunction against cerebral objectification of what should be approached as divine.
Yes there is transcendence of natural subjectivity and intersubjectivity, but not a movement from subjectivity to objectivity, not a transmutation of the subjective to an objective.
“Cut to the chase. If the Bible taught whether in the didactic or narrative passage that reparations was a biblical or gospel value. I would agree. It just is not there.” [James].
The Bible can be read as being about reparation from start to finish.
The Bible offers two generic covenants. The Bible speaks consistently to humankind’s failure to consistently live up to the conditions of either covenant. The Bible lays out pathways for recovery from so falling. What is involved for human beings in so recovering, can be understood as reparation for the carelessness of so falling.
Under aegis of the OT, reparation might be understood in terms of the disciplines of righteousness and obedience; both as the covenant would have those things.
Under aegis of the NT, reparation is brought into the core dynamic of the individual. Love neighbour as self, love your neighbour as your self. Where the loving of neighbour, the sacrificing of selfish self, is an ultimate action of recovery from fall.
The political demand for reparation, then becomes symbolic of these deeper dynamics of Biblically evoked reparation. Not so much a giving to another to make up for something, but more a reminder to all that we all do wrong things but have pathways to getting up from such falls.
Colin:
No. Just no. The Bible’s only “reparations” are the ones we owe to a Holy God. Can we ever pay him back for our sins? No, we cannot. Only Jesus and what he did can make up for our sins. PERIOD.
Just stop with the words and use your mind: God is a Holy God. He does not conform to your standards, he does not conform to my standards. He has his own standards, and we can NEVER meet those standards without Jesus.
There is no such thing as a “Biblically evoked reparation.” It does not exist in reality. God calls us to love our neighbors as ourselves. God calls us to give of ourselves to others. This is not reparations by any stretch of the imagination or philosophical reasoning. It just isn’t.
People do NOT have pathways to getting up from falls caused by sin. Jesus is the ONLY pathway. If you try on your own, you will continue to fall and you will find that each time you get up, you will fall again. And again. And again.
I recommend Jesus.
It’s amazing how triggering the subject of race is to so many Christians. I dunno, righting the wrongs of this world seems to be central to the themes of Jesus’ kingdom teachings.
And all this talk of ‘social engineering’ – get a grip. Every time you try convince someone to change their ways, think differently etc… you could say that’s ‘social engineering.’ Spare me the Marxist beginnings- you might recall (among others) a Jewish rabbi who stood on a mountainside and taught people a vastly different way to live/think/believe.
Racism is alive and well, and many are blind to it (some wilfully- see the above comments). Keep speaking truth and making it so our experience on earth might really be ‘as it is in heaven.’
Alex:
Jesus is the Son of God. He was not an ordinary “Jewish rabbi.” His power came from outside this world. “Social engineering” is a power construct developed by people. It doesn’t work.
Our experience on earth will NEVER – repeat – NEVER be “as it is in heaven.” That idea betrays a belief in Utopia. Again, it does not exist. We cannot achieve the kind of peace you imagine down here, without Jesus. He came precisely to bring us an inner peace the world cannot give.
“Jesus is the Son of God. He was not an ordinary “Jewish rabbi.” His power came from outside this world. “Social engineering” is a power construct developed by people. It doesn’t work.” [Dr Cynthia].
God as transcendent creator deity, and Judaism as perhaps the most successful instance of theologically grounded social engineering in human history, both apply. There is no intrinsic reason to make these understandings mutually exclusive. Each has a constituency of subscribers. Each affords illumination of the human circumstance. Each has played part in bringing about the human world we find ourselves in. Each allows Jesus a primary place in the pantheon of human saints (those striving to fulfill Biblical covenants).
I am an Englishman who lived for some years in America. In 1973, I visited as a speaker in what was called a Fundamentalist Church. One of the Sunday School teachers a white woman in her early fifties engaged me in conversation and at one point, this is honestly a true story said to me, “You British gave back Rhodesia to the Dxxx Nxxxxxx” When speaking I thought I would respond to what was obviously a dark and obscene culture covered by “The Bible Says” veneer. I raised my voice and said “If you have prejudice in your mind towards black people you have demons functioning inside your brain.” WOL…the response was simply incredible. Undiluted anger.
The truth is, as dreadful as those people were they were more honest with themselves than in today’s world where terms like WOKE, Cultural Marxism, Liberal Agenda’s and so forth cover the same inherent darkness….so let me say to this respectable crowd, “If you have prejudice in your mind towards black people you have demons functioning inside your brain.”
It seems Christian speakers/authors/pastors/activists fall on one end of the barbell or the other.
Systemic Racism ( )——— ( ) Personal Responsibility
Systemic Racism-minded people see victims that are helpless in the face of systems built with racial biases.
Personal Responsibility-minded people see individuals, families and a culture that needs to change, and minimize any lasting or remaining negative impacts of past or current systems (full disclosure: this is my personal bias).
Christians hopefully include (the most important thing) that salvation and godly living can make a huge difference in the outcome of one’s life, and the lives of family members. (also my bias).
Aren’t changes in ALL THREE realms required for lasting change? The surroundings, the people, and their souls?
Don’t Chicago public schools need to be improved, AND students challenged to study, AND parents challenged to ensure their children are doing their homework, AND black men and women challenged to value marriage, AND having children after marriage, AND the gospel needs to be shared and lived out, AND, AND, AND.
Do any Christian speaker/authors/pastors/activists address the comprehensive picture?
It seems every single one I have listened to or read falls on one end of the barbell or the other.
The Jews in the Bible are a perfect picture of this. There are things that happened to them, there are things they brought upon themselves, and in both, God called them to be faithful and obedient to Him.
One –
You summed up what I was saying about allowing for the “yes/and” so much better. Thank you.
One wonders if Mr. Tisby has ever read or contended with authors such as Shelby Steele or Thomas Sowell. Ever since President Johnson we have spent billions of dollars and enacted legislation to help poor and “underrepresented” people. It is a “tell” when Tisby mentions money, reparations and black colleges. How much more billions does he want. Sowell is a premier economist and historian and comes to the opposite conclusion. The fatherless, family structure and culture has a far greater influence than “systemic racism” Steele talks about “white guilt” and those who capitalize on it. Especially the elite. Guess who sold slaves to the English, Arabs and Spanish? Who do you think conquered, kidnapped and sold into slavery fellow tribesmen? The oppressed and the oppressor’s is Marxism par excellence. And should not be peddled in “Christianeze.”
Most people want to work and provide for their family, which is getting tougher for all Americans. Enough with the race-bating.
Here we go with the “good” Black people (the ones you agree with, who are to be read and treasured) versus the “bad” Black people (the ones you disagree with, who are to be silenced as “race baiters”).
I like and appreciate Black voices from across the political spectrum, and think ALL of them make valid points. I don’t think one “side” has all the answers. I actually think the right fighting and picking out “the good Black people from the race baiters” is keeping us from realizing it’s a “yes/and” (as One so eloquently stated). It’s personal accountability, family structure, faith AND addressing systemic issues (racism, classism, sexism, etc) TOGETHER.
And yes, Vance, so many of us want the same things (to work and provide for our families, send kids to good schools in safe neighborhoods, etc.) Even us Black people.
By the way, Black people didn’t deserve to be enslaved – or to endure the segregation that followed – no matter how many times you do the “but look who sold them” justification. It was wrong, period.
Yes, I wrote that on a Christian site in 2023. Help us, Lord.
How many of you believe the Bible is inspired and it is the ultimate authority? That it should be the lens that one must view the world? That it is infallible. You believe that when you read it that God is speaking. I ask this because I am pretty sure many of you who commented do not. Based on the content of your statements. It would clarify a lot. I know DR. CYNTHIA NORBECK Is a follower of Jesus Christ. Some others too. But I wonder if you all believe and have invested time in the scriptures.
“How many of you believe the Bible is inspired and it is the ultimate authority?” [James].
Inspired. Yes. Ultimate authority. No.
“That it should be the lens that one must view the world?” [James].
Yes and no. Make use of this lens and medate what the Bible promises. Do not abandon the lenses of nature and humanity.
“That it is infallible.” [James].
Inspired by God. Yes. Scribed by humans, from another culture, in another time. So no to infallibility.
“You believe that when you read it that God is speaking.”
No. When I read the Bible, I hear the voice and feeling and thinking of authors of particular Biblical texts, authors always contextualised in their culture and their time. Sometimes I experience what it is for particular Biblical authors to hear God speaking to them. God does not speak to me, but does inspire me.
“follower of Jesus Christ” [James].
To a degree I follow Jesus as an exemplar human being.
Christ is for me a theological construct. I respect the part this construct plays in the believing and faith and fruits of others; but I do not place personal faith in that construct.
James, your question here is coherent and salient. However it only maps into my being and occurrence to a degree. Hence my clunky and possibly inadequate answer to your question. I respect that the question expresses your being.
Well if you do not believe in it’s authoritative, infallible and you do not believe it is the word of God. We have to very different systems of beliefs. Thanks for being honest. I knew it. Therefore your authority is subjective. I am glad I asked because we have a different God. I respect your answer. We serve a different Savior and are apart of a different kingdom. You believe in a construct. I believe in a person. No wonder why you have so much scaffolding when you approach the Bible. Dr Cynthia. I knew that there were many who do not see the gospel and the scriptures as I think you do. And I I know I do.
There is zero way we will ever agree as regards to racism. We believe in a different gospel. Thanks Colin.
James,
Spot on! As my father, a pastor now gone, used to say: If someone does not believe in the infallibility of the Word of God, there is no way to reason with them. They are lost.
It is truly sad. The Word of God transforms people in miraculous ways, and Colin may never know this.
I am praying for him. I hope Jesus grabs his heart before it’s too late. He needs to learn that Jesus loves him and is NOT a “construct.”
“There is zero way we will ever agree as regards to racism. We believe in a different gospel. Thanks Colin.” [James].
I agree, albeit that I would rephrase what you here say, as: “we believe in differing Gods”, or believe in God differently
My personal understanding and imperative then is, that humans must continue to interact across differing bases for being.
Belief and faith, however differing, arise out of a deeper nexus. I flag that nexus as God. I judge the wisdom and truth of the Bible lies in: its indicating that nexus; in its steeping us through, educationally as it were, how to mediate Judaism (being Jewish) and Christianity (being Christian). Only the wonder and mystery of God does not end with this magnificent pair.
Take care.
And once again we find the tragic ‘this persons view of Christianity doesn’t align to my own 21st century westernised version’ and therefore I can write off everything they say. Pro tip. The bible isn’t the centrepoint of Christianity. That would be called bibliolatry. Jesus is. The first and second century Christian’s did not have a bible. They had the Torah. Maybe some letters. And the message of Christ crucified and his in-breaking of the Kingdom in this world. If that is your framework for evaluating who is and isn’t a ‘true Christian’, you will find that you are writing off most of the Christian’s throughout human history. Maybe some of the apostles too. Your worldview is so small, I wish you could see just how limited your sight is.
Whole lot ‘o white fragility round these parts.
Mark,
The term “white fragility” is on the way out. Perhaps you would care to clarify its particular meaning to you before it disappears?
It’s the reflexive defensiveness that erupts from some here whenever matters of race are discussed. I remember it pretty vividly in discussion surrounding Tisby and Grove City College. Essentially, every time systemic racism comes up, certain people doth protest much.
Mark,
Thanks for responding. The term “systemic racism” is also fast disappearing. DEI efforts have been exposed as the money-grabbing monoliths they are. Many are quickly being eliminated across various sections of our culture. As Dr. Prager famously announced today, DEI causes cultures to DIE.
So, for the record, perhaps you would also care to clarify what “systemic racism” means to you? Thanks.
Dennis Prager has no graduate degrees, just like John MacArthur, and if he did, you still can’t “famously” say something the same day. That’s not what that term means.
As for definitions:
Respectfully, Google it.
Where did you get your doctorate? In what area?
I’m guessing many see the Bible as Colin does. It is why these articles expose the lack of biblical clarity and veracity. This definitely will not restore the church when there is not an affirmation to scripture and the gospel. I see why people are so quick to condemn. These articles trigger and divide. Divide the followers of Christ to as stated “constructs” which is subjective in reality. It is unfortunate that this is for those entering the wide gate. Francis Schaeffer was right, “The spirit of the age is the spirit of the church.” They go hand I hand. Today we can see people walk across the borders and media/politicians say. Don’t believe what you see. That has infiltrated the hearts of individuals. Media is no longer a medium but feeds constructs and devoid of objective truth even when the evidence is crystal.
PART 1 What a bunch of carnal minded nonsense I see written here. If racism is an issue in any follower of Jesus, the answer is not going to come through educating the person on the fact that they are racist, or trying to make them feel guilty for what their grandfather did. There is only one way to change the heart of a person, they must be taught to walk in the Spirit of God and yield to the Fruit of The Spirit. Transformation comes through the study of the Word of God. If you have not learned this yet, you had better get with it. Let me tell you, if you have never experienced the overflowing love of God that totally transforms you, you have no idea what you are missing. The Fruit of The Holy Spirit has totally transformed my life. So much so that over the last 40 years my life has not been my own, I have basically spent them helping hurting people, why? Because this Love which comes from God will not let me rest
PART 2 while there is someone hurting physically or spiritually. You can spend your life trying to make things happen through your intellect and see few results, try following Jesus and walking in the Holy Spirit, in His Fruit. It will shock you to learn that the Lord had this all figured out long before we showed up on this earth. I have preached in many denominations, my concern for the Church is their lack of rightly dividing the Word of Truth, which has resulted in the many divisions. If there is not unity between the followers of Jesus concerning racial lines, you will never bring true unity by any means but by teaching the true Word of God, in the full context in which it was originally given. No man will ever bring lasting transformation outside of the Word of God, the receiving of the real Holy Spirit, and walking in the Fruit of the Holy Spirit.