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Reporting the Truth.
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Financials Show Giving Keeps Plunging at Willow Creek Community Church

By Sarah Einselen
willow creek
Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois. (Courtesy photo)

Newly obtained financials for Willow Creek Community Church show giving has fallen drastically in recent years—even as people filled the offering plates at other megachurches.

Cash giving at the Chicago-area multi-site church plunged 45% from 2018-2021, according to Willow Creek’s audited 2021 financials and historical figures reported by the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA).

The drop followed a major sex abuse scandal surrounding Willow Creek’s founder, Bill Hybels. He was publicly accused of misconduct in 2018, and the allegations were found credible the following year. A cofounder was later accused of sexual misconduct, too.

The Roys Report (TRR) obtained the 2021 financials this week. They show the church received about $35.4 million in cash donations last year. Adjusted for inflation, that’s just over half of what the church received in 2018.

The church received nearly $60 million in 2018 (about $64.3 million when adjusted for inflation); $53.2 million in 2019; and $42 million in 2020, according to figures compiled by the ECFA.

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Willow Creek Executive Pastor Tim Stevens declined to comment for this story.

The church acknowledged tumbling attendance and giving when it announced this past May that it was cutting staff again, TRR previously reported.

Willow Creek didn’t publicly state then just how much giving had dropped. TRR reported in May that Willow Creek’s budget for this year was down to about half its actual 2019 revenue.

The church launched a major giving campaign early this year, TRR reported at the time. But its weekly giving report shows giving is still about 15% under budget. Stevens previously told TRR that a bigger portion of the church’s giving comes at the end of the year.

This spring, Willow Creek leaders blamed COVID for the shrinking attendance and giving. But one researcher believes the pandemic is just part of the story.

ryan burge willow creek
Ryan Burge

Ryan Burge, whose work focuses on how religion and politics interact, told TRR that churches actually did pretty well financially during the pandemic. That’s particularly true of megachurches: cash giving at its largest member churches grew from 2019-2020, Burge noted.

Burge believes that people gave more to churches in 2020 because they couldn’t travel or eat out as much. More normal behaviors in 2021 may have meant church giving dropped back down some, he suggested.

“But, obviously at Willow it was not just that,” Burge added. “Totally botching the leadership transition is what did them in.”

Willow rolled out a controversial centralization plan in 2020, which coincided with the resignation of several campus pastors. The church cut 92 jobs across eight campuses in 2020, then laid off close to a third of remaining staff earlier this year.

At least eight Willow Creek campus pastors have resigned in the past three years. Two resigned in 2019. And six have resigned since Pastor Dave Dummit took over as Willow Creek senior pastor in April 2020. The latest to step down is Scott Reed, who announced in May he’ll be leaving Willow Creek’s Wheaton campus late this summer.

Burge said that in the past, Willow Creek was “a beacon of growth and innovation.” But now, he said, other nondenominational churches are doing that even better, and “without all the baggage and scandal.”

Sarah Einselen is an award-winning writer and editor based in Texas.



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47 thoughts on “Financials Show Giving Keeps Plunging at Willow Creek Community Church”

  1. In a sane world, the giving to Willow Creek Rock Concert Stadium would dwindle to nothing and the itching-ears parishioners it has snake-charmer-like sway over would either find themselves real churches or quit with the religious charade entirely.

    We had one disgusting lecherous abusive idol of a “pastor” there (Hybels), and his revolving door of successors such as Stevens have done nothing to stop the poisonous cult of celebrity, pop-star “Christianity” that oozes through its veins and repent of it. You get more “gospel” in the red light district of town than you do WC.

    Hybels, Driscoll, Warren, Dollar, MacArthur, Haggard, Osteen, they’re all the same. We truly are in the last days.

  2. This is a sad story. Back in the early 90s willowcreek revolutionized my perspective on ministry and being authentic and relevant. Hybels earned 60k per year from a 25000 member church. He was not like those others. I didnt idolize him but i did learn from him.
    None the less, maybe he should have transitioned out 10 years ago. Something weakened him and compromised him. Maybe burnout or stress from an ultimately unsustainable model of perpetual finacial and attemdance growth.
    The mega church model may be failing because it relies on celebrity instead of Christ. Maybe chuches were never meant to be that big. Just not sure.

    1. Mark Deckard,

      It’s always easier to believe that our idols got corrupted or burned out than that they were wolves all along. I knew Hybels was a tare when he started promoting Bill Clinton.

      The whole goal of this race called the faith isn’t being “authentic” and “relevant” but taking up your cross and serving Christ. If you want to be authentic and relevant, go start a pop group in the style that’s most popular in your peer group. If you want your life to matter, live out the one true Gospel.

      No sympathy for Hybels or any of his peers from me, and I am skeptical that a man who proved to be such a moral reprobate really “only” took home 60 grand out of his elephantine flock.

      1. Brian: Why do you always look to make a dig at Democrats? Bill Clinton has little to nothing to do with this article.

          1. Tim Olsen,

            I don’t worship Trump. I’ve no doubt some of the MAGA faithful do, but I’m not among them.

            I just woke up and realized that he did a better job than the narrative we are constantly fed says. For instance, up until COVID, he had the greatest economy of this generation.

            Was he perfect? Was he even ideal? Certainly not, but he wasn’t bad, either.

            I won’t liken him to King David–but I will liken him to King Cyrus.

          2. Marin Heiskell

            Brian –
            What I find interesting is how many of your arguments can apply on the flip side.

            You say you “woke up” and realized Trump did a better job than the narrative fed. I can say that about pastors of large churches, who you vilify with ZERO grace. I’ve attended churches both large and small throughout my walk with God, and have seen and experienced some great things under the teachings of those who pastor large congregations. I don’t “throw the baby out with the bath water” as if they are all evil.

            You are also quick to use analogies like King Cyrus to say perhaps God brought something good from Trump, yet you shut down ANY notion of ANYTHING good coming out of a pastor like Warren.

            Why do you extend grace to Trump but not others? I can’t speak for others, but it’s my guess that is why you come across as a MAGA faithful. Or maybe you aren’t aware you do that.

          3. Marin Heiskell,

            There’s a difference between what Trump said and what megachurch idols say. Trump said the opposite of what the public wanted to hear. He disturbed them, he nailed them in their weakest places, he made them extremely uncomfortable. In contrast, the megachurch rock stars flatter their flocks. They fill and butter them up, make them feel great. Who wouldn’t want to hear that God wants them rich.

            Show me a model in Scripture for religious leaders saying what their flocks want to hear like Osteen and Warren do. I challenge you.

            There’s actually an Old Testament verse exactly about this, Micah 2:11. That’s written for the fanboys of megachurch (false) gods.

          4. Hey Brian, why don’t you tell us about Donald Trump’s spiritual advisor and what that tells you about him?

          5. You are right, Brian. Trump was – and continues to be – unrepentantly prideful, arrogant, divisive and hateful with his speech. He does nor speak the truth in love, uses profane and foul language, all of which are repeated and and unrepentant violations of scripture. Why do you have such grace for that? And where do you see fruits of the spirit manifesting in Trump’s life? I’ll wait. We are to be known by our fruit, are we not?

            I can’t speak for Osteen, but I can say I have been blessed by several
            of Warren’s writings, and have seen several friends grow into deeper, authentic walks with God rthru Warren. A dear college friend who was raised Catholic and thought only priests are to read the Bible was encouraged through Warren and Saddleback to finally read the Bible cover to cover for herself and was baptized as a Bible-believing Christian (I am not bashing Catholicism). Is that not to be celebrated? Why do you throw the baby out with the bath water with huge generalizations?

        1. Tom Parker,

          The Bill Clinton observation was absolutely apt. Hybels made a name for himself in the late 90s/early 00s as “the president’s pastor”–this was well after his scandals, so to speak, had been revealed. Clinton (who claimed to be a Christian)’s conduct was bad enough, but his policies (he was the then-most pro-abortion president we had had to date, for instance) were even worse.

          I suppose you’ll have some great argument for why #MeToo shouldn’t have applied to Clinton, something like that he had proved himself on women’s rights by standing with the “right to choose” and that the right was crucifying him for no reason?

    2. Hi Mark Deckard–Hybels was preying on women LONG before 10 years ago. Since at least the early 80s. More likely since the mid 70s. He tells a story of gathering other teen boys together at summer camp to illicitly watch videotapes of women giving birth, way back in the 60s. Willow Creek was founded by at least 2, and likely 3, long term sexual predators. It’s most likely that the predation came first, chronologically, and the church second, rather than the other way around.

      1. Benjamin Ady,

        Rot, filth, predation are what you get when you found an institution on the basis of celebrity, mass marketing, and popularity rather than the eternal values of truth. It’s a fact.

        90+% of these horror stories could have been avoided if people just avoided teaching that was designed to make them comfortable and happy.

    3. 60k but that was for his part time job of preaching at Willow Creek. What about the jobs he spent most of his time on, peddling his books and his outside speaking engagements? So with all these financial difficulties and layoffs I assume none of this impacts the fat golden parachute Hybels got when he was shown the door.

    4. Mark. It’s good that you are able to sustain your own judgement, grounded as it is in your own experiencing. Avoiding the binary extremes of support versus condemnation that collective judgement tends to default to.

      1. RightON, Colin. It seems many posters (social media in general) just want nothing less than blood…yet forget, in the process of that lust for blood, that we all ride the wave between support and condemnation for the very thoughts and actions in our own lives.

        I’m first in line here. Look in the mirror before you post…and ‘journalists’ – you do the same before you post a story.

        Remember – at the altar – the one who went home, justified.

        1. Dean Tee,

          Setting up a church or “ministry” complex with the goal of preying on vulnerable and trusting saints of Christ is about as evil as it can possibly get. There’s no room for grayness or political correctness here. There’s a difference between having a discussion about questionable theological directions, etc. and a discussion about “Christian” leaders using their position to procure sexual victims.

          We know the kind of eternity Zacharias is receiving for his actions, and what Hybels will if he does not repent.

          1. Brian Patrick, I’ve always experienced such a huge disconnect between the lone sexual predator who gets caught and gets sentenced to years in prison and then must register as a sex offender for life and the “celebrity” pastors who do the same and trot off and start a church in a barn or a home somewhere and just re-grow the same corporate culture with the cancer untreated and left to grow for another season. SMH.

          2. Linda Olsen,

            There’s times when a revelation of one’s turpitude comes completely out of the blue and unexpected. This is not one of them. POTUS Bill Clinton was well known as a philanderer, sexual groomer/predator, and serial liar at the time it was revealed he and Hybels were personal friends. What did it say about Hybels that he was so willing to embrace (and legitimize before God’s church) an unrepentant predator?

            2 Peter 2:17 was written for men like Hybels, Zacharias, and Gothard.

          3. And Brian, the cross and all sin written on it was made for men like Hybels, Zacharius, and Gothard…and you…and me. The worst of the worst.

            I’m not excusing poor actions going on. Or manipulation. Or sexual predators. Or…or… Nope. We’ll all, believer or not, be held accountable for everything…which is a terrifying thought. Literally.

            But your cymbal clangs louder&louder, and you seem to be quite proud of it.

            Take note of the tax collector standing next to you.

          4. Dean Tee,

            I’m not sure what you are trying to say. Are all of us dirty rotten sinners who deserve hell? Yes. Do most of us work the system so that we can have a steady stream of victims available to sexually abuse? No.

            When we get desensitized to the latter because we don’t want to be divisive, or (worse yet) we can’t bear to hear bad things said of our idols, we are in a danger zone, and we, as the frogs, are cooked in the pot.

    5. I think you are making the mistake of thinking that just because you think it was once a good thing, that God thinks it was too. From that false presumption lots of false conclusions flow. God has always known who this man was. What is popular with man is never popular with God. His Word tells us that. But it takes courage to look within, so few ever do it. I hope you find the courage to ask our God directly, with prayer and fasting, what He thought and thinks of Bill and this church. Jesus spoke the most negative words about the religious elite and big rollers during his day. Has anything changed over the many centuries? I doubt they have…

      1. Ralph Jesperson,

        Agreed, 100%. I have no evidence that Willow Creek and Hybels accomplished any good in the world, whatsoever. The watered-down seeker-friendly “gospel” that he and his minions preached is worse than useless.

        We had armies of professional “Christian” sycophants in high places talking about all the great things RZIM accomplished… because everyone knows that lecturing about world religions like any secular college instructor does moves hearts and gets souls into heaven. In fact, so ironclad was their grip on information surrounding him that very few of us knew anything about what Ravi was up to until several months after he passed. It was only really in early 2021 that it came to be wholly publicly understood that RZ was running a personal worldwide rape empire disguised as a “ministry”.

        It appears more than likely that Hybels and his own pop-star megachurch abomination empire were scarcely less malevolent and abusive than Zacharias’. But again… it shouldn’t be surprising, look at his powerful friends, the company he kept.

        1. Brian, you are mighty arrogant thinking that nothing good came out of that church. How do you know the hearts of the women and men and children who walked through those doors over decades?? Maybe it didn’t happen, but maybe a few did meet (gasp!)The Friend who sticks closer than a brother while they were there. Maybe even more than a few.

          And for the record, I get what you’re saying. But you come off to me more times than not…like the Pharisee at the altar clanging his clangy cymbal while staring down the tax collector.

          Lord forgive me, a sinner.

          1. Dean Tee,

            God can use whatever and whoever he wants–so what? People get saved out of disasters, terrible crimes, severe times of trial… should we celebrate those?

            I’m sure someone has gotten saved through the preaching of: Jim Jones, Benny Hinn, Tammy Faye Bakker. Should we celebrate any of the above or make excuses for them?

            The culture has gotten so obsessed with having “grace” and “compassion” on everything that it’s completely forgotten that mercy without justice is meaningless.

            I’ll have grace and compassion on Hybels’ victims, thank you very much.

        2. I’ve never been a huge Ravi fan, but I’m not sure it’s fair to characterize what he did as “lecturing about world religions like any college professor would.” At this point, though, maybe it hardly matters given that his life seems to have been a negation of whatever he supposedly taught.

      2. And Ralph, I hope you (and myself as well) find the courage to ask our God directly, with prayer and fasting, what He thought and thinks about our spirit behind these posting boards.

        1. Amen Dean! It’s with much prayer and fasting that we can humble ourselves and seek God’s face to examine our hearts before we speak about any ones sinful behavior.

          Let’s ALL (including myself) remember Matthew 7:5…..First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

          And it’s ONLY God that can take something so awful as men/women’s sin and turn it around for HIS GLORY and for our good. God doesn’t waste anything! Let us ALL pray for His Kingdom to come and His will to be done.🙏🏾

          1. Fonda Foster,

            While humility and prayer never hurt, I’m not sure why calling out plain and obvious sin requires some deep and hallowed ceremony of consecration. There’s such a thing as calling a spade a spade.

            It’s fact, not speculation, that Ravi Zacharias and Bill Hybels built and ran personal empires under the facade of Christianity devoted to getting them access to victims to sexually abuse and exploit (in the case of RZ, to outright rape).

            These are not gray areas, and I don’t think that God expects his church to walk on eggshells in calling out this evil. As it is, the evangelical-industrial complex succeeded in protecting Zacharias from all consequences of his actions for the entirety of his life. We must say “Never Again” to this.

    6. Mark, you have good points as Tim Keller pointed out.

      “…, because often the founder comes to see the church as their personal possession-and an extension of their personality and self-image, they often never want to leave, nor do they know how to well. It is good to leave sooner rather than later as a spiritual discipline.”—Tim Keller

      This comes from the Roys Report,

      ‘Tim Keller: Megachurches are “Poor Places for Formation” & Have “Addictive Dependence” on Founders’

      Julie has articles on the ECFA see:

      If the ECFA wasn’t around and imperfect –as it might be, it would be hard for this article to exist, if itdidn’t!

      There is also a good short article a church’s financial transparency from another source:

      “How To Check Your Church for Financial Transparency”

    7. Mark you are right on the “mark”. These pastors unfortunately are not pastors but rock stars. And I agree that maybe the mega church was never to be.

      1. The problem is Gary…so many times WE make ’em rock stars – and – contribute to their ‘fiefdoms’…as you so accurately refer.

  3. Church-ertainment spending is way down post-pandemic.

    I have never thought the megachurch model was effective ministry or discipleship, no matter how orthodox the preaching. The polity of many of these organizations is suspect at best and rife with leadership abuse of power and financial crimes.

    Forcing people to join small groups is necessary at this model (putting you in a department). Several years ago I was invited by an evangelical friend to go to a megachurch and I explained how it felt more like entertainment / concert / emotional appeal than worship to me. She explained that’s why “they make you join a small group”. I said, “I might be okay if I were in a small worship group with people I know”. She then explained that the small groups were in people’s homes, and that she and I would be in a divorced or “singles” small group. We could not be in a group with any married people.

    An organization that exerts more control over the “sheeple” and who they associate with, in church, than it does with the accountability and control over its own leadership is not worthy of my time or my volunteerism or financial giving.

    1. Linda Olsen,

      When the discussion was about Saddleback on TRR, and Pastor Rock (Star) Warren’s handpicked wonderboy successor Andy Wood, one of [the commenters here asked] “well does YOUR church have a twelve-step program???”. No, it doesn’t, and I’m glad it doesn’t. There are churches and there are professional institutions trained and licensed to get people through addictions. God’s church certainly should be a PART of that, but it isn’t the only answer. Is prayer from the elders and Friday morning men’s breakfasts the only answer to heart disease, or does the ailing parishioner go see a cardiologist?

      If we had healthy thriving bodies of Christ of *normal size* functioning throughout the land–places where an average person could meet and strike up a personal rapport with a pastor and get plugged into average likewise souls on a Sunday morning (without having to sign up for x, y, and z churches-within-a-church just to make a few friends), we wouldn’t need twelve-step programs as much as we do.

      1. That was me, Brian. There are a lot of resources megachurches have that smaller or even midsized churches just don’t. It doesn’t make them the best churches but it can sure make it the best church for your family if you have, for instance, a child with special needs.

        1. Mark Gunderson,

          Sorry, I don’t agree. A church isn’t a village, an entertainment center, a doctor’s office. It’s the closest thing to God’s dwelling place in heaven where you live, and when we get to the real heaven none of those first three things will hold any relevance. A church’s place is to center your life with God, speak truth and move you along in your path to sanctification. A church can POINT you to healing and recovery and assistance and be there for support, but it won’t take the place of your oncologist, licensed therapist, or your kid’s math tutor.

          The modern consumerist mindset of “gimme more, more, more” is the root of much of our decadence and moral rot.

          1. I agree with Mark. I disagree with the blanket accusations, labels, and presumptions about large churches all being bad or evil.

            I have worshipped in both large and small churches based on where I was in my walk with Christ and where I was led at the time. I came to Christ in a small church, helped grow a youth ministry there, then experienced burnout due to too few resources. I began to spend all of service working, missing praise and worship, maybe hearing part of the sermon and having someone bring me communion afterwards. While I was grateful for all I learned, and the relationships I built, I did desire a season of actually being able to attend service and be ministered to. I felt guilty for needing it, but after prayer and counseling, realized I can’t give if my tank is empty.
            So I went to a large church (~2000 members, 3 services, 1 campus). Ministries and resources were plentiful, and I was able to both serve and be served. I loved and needed the Biblical guidance and relationships I developed as an older single (I was used to being the only one – this church had a whole ministry for us!) It was what I needed for that season.
            I think different churches meet different needs. Who are we to bash others for having those needs or seeking a church to have them met? Isn’t that better than going to the world? And who are we to demonize all churches over a certain size?

          2. Marin Heiskell,

            Whatever the background to it, wanting to go to a specific church solely/chiefly because it makes you feel good is the wrong reason.

            God didn’t put teachers, preachers, and exhorters into our lives so that we could continue on in our paths getting validated in whatever it is we are doing. There’s a pretty good chance that any given person, saved or not, is *not* on the right track right now or at the very least can stand to improve some of their choices and conduct. I would certainly be lying if I denied that of myself.

            I think many of the needs that megachurches fill can be met through totally secular means–going to a concert or movie, a party with friends, etc. There is nothing inherently wrong with any of that, and (generally) people don’t try to dress those things up so that they have spiritual significance. Nobody would say that they worship God through seeing the latest Marvel blockbuster, because that would sound crazy. So, how much crazier is it to literally try to make a church BE the latest Marvel blockbuster?

          3. Brian –

            I notice you twist my words. I said I sought a new church after prayer and counseling because I needed ministering to. In this case, I was burned out. On a prior thread, I mentioned being ministered to by Charlie Dates. You again turned it into a “you just want to feel good”. That is NOT what ministering is. I clarified repeatedly what that means to me (discipling, correcting, counseling, spurring on to growth), and you keep belittling by oversimplifying and twisting.
            Unfortunately, attitudes like yours was why I felt too guilty to initially leave. When I asked for prayer on if God wanted me to move on, I was met with all the “oh you just want to feel good” instead of agreeing to pray with me or actually ask what I needed.

            And I have no idea what Marvel has to do with it, but I’ll say this: when I was at one larger church in the Bay Area, it had several new Christians who had been ostracized or kicked out of their homes for converting (away from Islam or Buddhism), which was offensive to their immigrant families. The church started adding social events after our midweek Bible studies to give these people places to hang out. Many came together and became roommates, and loved having new Christian households.

            My point: what may look superficial to you may really meet an important spiritual need of another believer. I encourage you to ask questions rather than dismiss or assume.

          4. Also, Brian –
            The first century church, as described in Acts 2:42-47, was a village that came together to meet the physical as well as spiritual needs of one another.

          5. Marin Heiskell,

            There was a long discussion about the serious issues with Dates–specifically, the racial slurs that he knowingly and proudly used. None of this was in dispute. You defended Dates because he was warm and welcoming and took you in (my words, not yours). It was as though your feelings and personal experience with him outweighed his extremely serious character flaws.

            How would you feel about a white pastor who proudly used racial slurs, and continued to be idolized by his audience anyway?

            Moving on, it’s fair to ask what being “ministered to” even means. I get that your tank was empty, but what was uniquely and specifically Christian, and orthodox, about your experience? I don’t doubt that you needed attention and care, but it sounds to me like you could have received what you sought in a myriad of places and not necessarily a large church–you could have found them in a Jewish or Buddhist temple, or a self-help or counseling seminar.

          6. Marin Heiskell,

            The Acts 2:42-47 narrative is given to provide a historical lesson–not to prescribe a model that all Christians are to follow. There’s nothing in the text implying, stating, that this was not a one-time situation that just happened but rather the way we are supposed to live.

            In fact, the Jerusalem church got a pretty raw deal out of this experiment. These brothers burned through all their property and life savings to support a large number of converts that were not pulling their own weight, and wound up utterly destitute and dependent on the collections that Paul called out for in the Epistles.

          7. Brian –
            You should go read my last comment, when I said it appears there is a misunderstanding of what ministering means. Pastor Dates discipled, corrected, admonished, pointed me to scriptures, and prayed with me as I was having rather sinful responses to grief. That required follow up, which his wife Kirstie did (understandably so). You can condescendingly call that “wanting to feel good”, yet I can cite scriptures on the importance of each element in ministry.
            When I’m empty, I’m spiritually, mentally and emotionally fatigued to the point I believe I’m unable to serve at the level God calls; I’m also no longer growing in discipleship. I couldn’t recall the last time I was even available to be stretched to do so: every minute I was in the church, I was needed. I couldn’t even sit for the sermon or communion because the youth needed me.
            I don’t think large churches are always the answer. IMHO, changing churches requires prayer and counseling to AVOID all that you accuse me of. At times that led to staying put. But in the three times I’ve changed churches, each time involved months of praying, counseling, and searching for where God intended for me to serve next. It took me to places unexpected: I grew up with a dad who shares your hatred of large churches, so I was biased there; I also doubted I’d be comfortable in a predominantly white church. But God has sent me to both; I was hesitant, but I now see why He had me there. It’s about landing where HE calls me to serve, not where I want to be. I can’t see God calling me to a Buddhist temple or self-help seminar.

          8. And let me also clarify I was NOT defending anything regarding racial slurs. Go read the thread again. I was among the FIRST posters with why I was excited about the opportunity for the Dates family based on my personal interaction with Charlie and Kirstie.
            I also repeatedly said, I cannot comment on what I am not aware of (I am not a member of Progressive Baptist nor am I very active on social media, which is where this seemed to play out), and said I can only speak to what my knowledge and experience has been at this time. That’s it.
            I’m not sure what a white person using slurs has anything to do with the convo (I’ll have to revisit the thread to see what I missed). Then again, we watched our former POTUS generalize and objectify by calling us “the Blacks” and call his Black supporters “my African-Americans” as if they are his property, and that made me uncomfortable (but was apparently ok to his supporters). So I assure you I’d have a problem with racial slurs, no matter if others find it ok.

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